Jets DLC Official Feedback

[saul 24]

Please use this thread for discussion specific to the Jets DLC. Content is already available on Dev-Branch for you to try and if you have any feedback or suggestions please feel free to post them below. Please remember that the content is still in beta and the preferred method of reporting issues is the Feedback Tracker. Thanks!

[xon2 102]

Just posting my earlier comments in the correct place this time:

 

I have been trying the new jets on dev branch and have a good deal of fun with them. Looks pretty nice alltogether and with the enhanced laser tgps its a blast to hunt down convoy and such. So here is some feedback, though i guess some of it is about to be implemented by you guys anyway soon. I reckon a good deal of what i write down below concerns BI dev. equally or more than you. When i use the words, 'should, need or best', its not intended to signal i know better or 'its the only right way'. I just used them to cut this post down in length.

 

The biggest issue is one specific point of the flight model. If this was enhanced, i would consider fixed wing flight reasonbly well implemented for what the arma sandbox represents. The biggest problem with the current FM in my eyes, is the miniscule nose drop when banking. I just fired up DCS and rechecked the F-15c's behaviour in a 60° fighter turn. The nose comes down pretty hard and additionally, the aircraft is pushed into the turn because the lift of the wings forces the plane not upwards but into the direction you are banking. You know that stuff better than me, i am sure. Is there anyway the fixed wing FM could implement this behaviour? Its not just a question of realism/authenticity, but i forces one to steer the plane quite unnaturally. I often force the nose down quite heavily with rudder. Shallow banking angles don't turn the aircraft properly in arma, for the lack of that sideward push when banking. I know the Apex Caesar plane has a bit enhanced flight characteristics and sure feels a bit better It has that nose dive and sidewards lift implemented, although a bit weak i would say (not a real life pilot so who knows :)....).

 

Now some stuff concerning the new jets directly, in no particular order:

 

- laser best be placed between bombs and gun. I'd suggest to place it in last/first position when switching through weapons to always have it right next to bombs. Additionally, add a keybind for the laser. If you can't come up with a good default key, leave it unbound. People with a hotas have plenty of buttons.

 

- the 'point track' function does not work reliably. It often does not change from area to point track in tgp view.

 

- stronger, flashing collision lights that rather 'flash' then slightly blink. The latest release of Franze/Noduint AH-64 Apache enhanced by Sacha (ver. 1.43+) does this quite well. Seperate keybindings for collision and formation lights would be great.

 

- landings fine feel pretty good, any plans to implement compressible to the landing gears?

 

- more than 12k viewdistance/object distance as a vanilla option would really help. Apparently, you can do a config fix, but with the jets dlc, pls give us that option as a vanilla funtion.

 

- its very nice that a lot of flight info is now part of the cockpit dashbords, for instance flaps postition. I can the nozzle position, but not the thrust indicator in Black wasp, is that coming?

 

- the tgp marker cross needs a pointing line/cue that directs one where the tgp is pointing at displayed in the HUD/HMD. In the Gryphon for instance, one needs to turn until the HUD comes over the tgp cross to see it, but before that there is no indicattion whether to turn left or right. A cueing system like the DCS A-10c has for waypoints would do the trick.

 

- afterburner when max throttle instead as a seperate keybinding/aciton menu entry (once implemented).

 

- tgp 360° raduis of wasp 2 is good, this should be implemented for all planes. Yes, the Gryphon is supposed to be less hightech. But the angle of it's tgp is just to small atm. Right now, the tgp often jumps off target before a laser guided bomb impacts, screwing up the shot. Additionally, these jets are so fast that with such a restricted viewing angle, i am more busy positioning my plane to look for and lock up targets than acutally looking through the tgp. Even todays tgps have 360° viewing angle.

 

- the metal bars of the Shikra's canopy are a bit low ress compared to the other jets. And, fith generation but no HMD?

 

- max zoom too low, could you get it inline with the other vanilla aircraft/helos etc.? I just love my close up third person flybys :)

 

- in tgp view we have a bank angle representation in the lower left corner. Could this be enhanced to show pitch angle as well?

 

- the Gryphon seems to not have an aircraft nose indicator like the BW2 has. I think the gun cross is not sufficient, especially for manually locking up targets in a dive.

 

I guess this is enough for a start. Overall i am pretty happy about what you guys are bringing to arma 3. I don't know. Although i have a high fidelity flight sim (DCS), i still fairly enjoy that stuff in arma 3...now a lot more of course!

[petek 62]

Hi Saul - good work from what I can see so far (difficult with the problems regarding land vehicles not appearing until 1km as mentioned in another post) I'm having lots of Crash to Desktop with no specific errors reported (unsure if specifically due to Jets content) Cheers

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

GRYPHON

Faps flickering on engine start. Leading edge of Flaps not animating in either flaps down half or full.

 

Not all jets use the Apex version of flight configs, the flight models for jets now feel really good, but the rudder could use the new apex configs for further testing.

 

HUD on the Gryphon is a little hard to see, especially when acquiring targets not in visual range. Right now, the current display only fills up the center portion of the glass, but the info can be expanded more up and down on the glass. Also, the glass needs to be more clear, while still keeping that green tint. Just not as strong as to hinder visibility.

 

Gryphon Pylons are a bit limited. Only the center two can hold dual rack, but the mid pylons should also be able to dual rack as well as carry a single GBU.

 

When turning off the Gryphon engine and switching to third person the sound simply cuts off, no spooling down of engine. This destroyed immersion.

 

Other than that, Gryphon feels and flies solid, and believable to it's real life counterpart.

[arkhir 135]

1. Really missing new weapon types. Sorta surprised we're not getting different sorts of tools that would utilize all the awesome new mechanics introduced by the DLC.
   A lot of potential goes to waste: anti-radiation ordnance, beam-riding semi-active missiles, cluster bombs, bomblet dispensers, or different sized unguided bombs (FAB-250, 500) for CSAT, no GPS guided munitions, not much difference in size between unguided rockets.
2. It'd be really cool if aerial assets would be rendered as feature 2 on default.
3. Soundscape of the DLC could be slightly improved (RWR sounds, and all that jazz; possibly other atmospheric features, sound-design wise)
4. I think the default ArmA 3 HUD features (e.g. locking squares/diamonds, lead indication, etc.) should be disabled in jets that feature these markings on the HMD or their HUD.
5. The FoV in new jets is not on par with ArmA standards.
6. Anti-air defence options are very limited in vanilla game, currently we have only 2 vehicles, 1 static and 1 manpad. It's a pity AA(A) assets weren't in the scope of this DLC.
   Well, we did get three more assets, but they are bound to the aircraft carrier and NATO faction.
7. PiP is too limited engine-wise to be used efficiently with targetting pods. It is good enough for missile cam though.
8. Flares and chaff seem to be a bit too reliable in distracting missiles
9. There is no automated "timed" flare dispensal mode
10. Jets don't mark radiation threats on their HUD/HMDs even if they are detected by the ELINT or RWR. If this isn't introduced because it is considered "too OP" then ELINT pods should take one of the pylon rack spots.
    SU-25 had this years earlier
11. Threats that are marked by the HUD and outside of its range aren't distinguished (like on the screenshot above, by a diamond with the X) - they just stick to the frame of HUD.
12. RWR doesn't warn about radar lock-on, only about incoming missile.
13. (not sure if intentional) Heat-seeking passive missiles are being detected on launch. While I understand this gameplay-wise, it'd be more realistic to just make them relatively easy to flare but hit without warning, unlike radar-guided munitions. This would force players to dispense flares preemptively like it is done in real life when there is a threat of MANPADS. If there was a possibility of achieving such results by re-configuring passive missiles or airplane warning recievers then it's fine I guess.

[ampersand38 344]

The UCAV Sentinel does not have a throttle percentage indicator.

 

Both carrier-based aircraft will likely need much better turning on the nose wheel. Currently they can turn about 45 degrees. Real carrier jets have nose wheels that basically pivot to 90 degrees. 

[suiside 95]

first of all, thanks for the great models :D

 

i have noticed (i must be the only one because who would ever get shot by the ai )

when in a dog fight and getting gunned down by AI CSAT pilot in a shikra  he shot me with a rook 40 .... (death screen)

 

[dragon01 902]

Here's what I found:
1. Apex flight model improvements need to be integrated on both new and old planes.
2. Jets need to be able to use a broader range of weapons.

3. The engine sounds depend on speed, which sounds completely ridiculous at low speeds (especially if you're holding full throttle trying to accelerate).

4. No post-stall maneuverability. That thrust vectoring should count for something.

5. Flaps indicators on Shikra and Grifon have T/O and LDG positions swapped.

6. There's a lot of things wrong with VSI on Shikra. The number it displays doesn't seem to be related to neither the actual rise/sink rate nor to the needle position on the scale. The needle itself only moves when rising.

7. The HUDs display neither AoA nor mach number.

8. HUD/HMD calibration is off. Black Wasp rises when the FPM is put on the zero pitch ladder, while Shikra and Griffon sink.

9. FPM and pitch ladder on Black Wasp move with the head, meaning that their readings are easily made completely inaccurate.

10. Anunciator lights on Black Wasp are permanently on. They should be connected to system operation and failures.

11. Sentinel needs some kind of rudder (split control surfaces would be best).

12. Landing lights on all aircraft in general (helos and planes) should point more forward than downward and have more range. Right now they're kind of useless.

13. Aircraft need to have a waypoint position indicator. I remember something like that being added, but it doesn't seem to work now.

14. Engine position indicator on the Xian is hard to use. It should also be on the HMD.

 

2 hours ago, arkhir said:

1. (not sure if intentional) Heat-seeking passive missiles are being detected on launch. While I understand this gameplay-wise, it'd be more realistic to just make them relatively easy to flare but hit without warning, unlike radar-guided munitions. This would force players to dispense flares preemptively like it is done in real life when there is a threat of MANPADS. If there was a possibility of achieving such results by re-configuring passive missiles or airplane warning recievers then it's fine I guess.

This is intentional and actually realistic. Today's jets include a missile launch warning sensor, which detects the missile's engine plume and warns the pilot in a manner similar to RWR.

 

Also, spare yourself the trouble of requesting new features, it's too late to model anything. We've already seen everything art asset that is gonna be added in the DLC. 

[Redphoenix 1540]

Couple of things that stood out to me after the first couple of minutes:

A-149 Gryphon Improvement - Flaps in wrong settings - https://feedback.bistudio.com/T124369
A-149 Gryphon Improvement - Afterburner is always visible - https://feedback.bistudio.com/T124368

A-149 Gryphon Improvement: Green HUD Glass is not transparent enough - https://feedback.bistudio.com/T124367

To-201 Shikra Improvement - Flaps in wrong settings - https://feedback.bistudio.com/T124372

To-201 Shikra Improvement - Afterburner is always visible  -https://feedback.bistudio.com/T124371

 

F/A-18 Black Wasp Improvements: Remove Tailcode from Texture - Add it as Decal - https://feedback.bistudio.com/T124370

Other than that, models look good, Gryphon exterior texture is somewhat blurry (mipmapping error?)
The flight model is also "good" in Arma's terms.

[arkhir 135]

2 hours ago, dragon01 said:

Also, spare yourself the trouble of requesting new features, it's too late to model anything. We've already seen everything art asset that is gonna be added in the DLC. 

Hey, feedback is feedback. And these changes don't necessarily require any modelling to do, some of the changes could be done config- or script-wise I think. KH-29 and Maverick models are there, but we don't get any variants (SACLOS, ARMs, etc.)

 

I think that anti-radar missiles are a must given the new changes, but currently I don't think we even have a way of modding them in, as this type of guidance doesn't exist engine-wise :P

 

I guess you're right about the former thing, in 2035 MAWS will be pretty common, but still it would be nice to have a possibility of disabling them somehow for modding purposes.

[dragon01 902]

I've found another problem. GBU-12s can't lock onto the laser from a very long distance (another reason to get rid of that bloody thing and give them proper LOAL, BTW). I've been playing around with flying at realistic altitudes, and a measly 5km is enough for the bomb not to be able to lock. It should definitely be possible to engage targets from high altitudes like that.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Previously posted about alpha rendering problem in R77 missile's textures/materials which causes SSAO/HBAO shading to appear though the surface and create a shimmering effect.

Also affects parts of the Shikra MFD and BIM-9X (or whatever the version of sidewinder on the Black Wasp is designated as)

Proposed some potential fixes or troubleshooting considerations in the original post.

[Hvymtal 1251]

Horizon lines are a bit off

Wasp: high about 1 degree

Shikra: Low about 2 degrees

Gryphon: Low about 4 degrees

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T124435

 

My thread on performance. I think the Shikra and Wasp might be just a tad too similar, but that could simply make fights more exciting

 

[suiside 95]

artifect or strange shadow on wing

already mentioned AI kill with 9mm during dog fight

Spoiler

 

[Electricleash 133]

3 hours ago, ampersand38 said:

The UCAV Sentinel does not have a throttle percentage indicator.

 

Both carrier-based aircraft will likely need much better turning on the nose wheel. Currently they can turn about 45 degrees. Real carrier jets have nose wheels that basically pivot to 90 degrees. 

 

I haven't had a chance to get with the jets, though from the pic and footage, they look stunning!

In your OPREP (great job btw!) you mention internal discussions about the location of the rear landing gear on the Black Wasp, I wonder who won out on that ;D

Personally I think they might sit a little too far back on the bird, but I suspect it's a little late in the day for that level of model adjustment.

 

The above post by ampersand, has always been a bugbear of mine, and while not specifically 'jets' related, I believe no better time to bring it up.

From a game-play stand-point (if not necessarily from a real world one), all planes on the ground should be able to manoeuvre/turn at 90 degree angles.

This and the ability to reverse thrust. The number of times I've clipped a wing on a post or some other prop and had to restart because there's no way to free yourself (there being no tow tractors etc.)

 

Otherwise exciting stuff!

E

 

 

 

[Sniperwolf572 758]

2 hours ago, dragon01 said:

3. The engine sounds depend on speed, which sounds completely ridiculous at low speeds (especially if you're holding full throttle trying to accelerate).

 

This also sounded so wrong to me, but I'm no expert and probably have no clue what I'm talking about here. The 100% throttle seems more like a suggestion rather than what the engines are actually trying to do. Not sure if it's a side effect of the sound produced or something else, but the planes feel and sound like they're not even trying during some situations at 100% throttle.

[R0adki11 3949]

38 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

First quote, I was speaking of MAW in general. Second quote, I was speaking of MAW that tracks the exact position of missiles via radar. Don't quote me out of context. Both systems exist and are in service, but the latter is much bulkier due to the need for an additional, independent radar system for missile tracking. 

That maybe so, but please remember to stay on topic. This thread is about feedback on the upcoming DLC content.

[GuyWithaJeep 82]

Since I'm not sure where it's most applicable, I'll put my suggestion for improving the F/A-181's HMD here as well.

 

Any thoughts on the Black Wasp's HMD taking some more cues from its predecessor?  I threw together something terribly quickly as a mock up.

Notable changes include removing the Pitch, Roll, and whatever C stood for indicators to make way for the more common Angle of Attack, Mach, and G readouts found in the Hornet.  A rate of climb counter above the altitude readout (and a nixed radar altitude to clean things up a bit), clock, and a "Selected Weapon" indicator.  Basically a bunch of stuff to keep the player from glancing up at the regular UI and taking them out of the fight.

 

I personally think that a readout of your currently selected weapon on the HMD/HUD is vital, since there is almost no difference in the targeting circle for the AMRAAM and BIM 9X at the moment.

[Hvymtal 1251]

Pitch, roll and climb ("C") are present on all the other HUDs, even going back to the wipeout and neo. It wouldn't make sense from a consistency standpoint to remove them

"Pylon ammo" was added as a HUD option today, so we'll probably be seeing that incorporated on one or more of the aircraft soon enough. I seriously doubt that it will not be on the HUS for long. AOA doesn't play into effect very much an A3 dogfights even with these new planes, either you're stalling or you aren't. G is pointless unless you have ACE enabled, and Mach is pointless since we already have TAS, the Shikra and Wasp top out at 1300 if you push it, and the gryphon won't even do 1000 unless you push it off of a cliff.

[agent556 5]

I'll post here though some might be more appropriate in the HUD Improvements thread

 

• Flight path marker should show actual flight path, not just act as a hud element that moves with the head. Also, the flight path marker doesn't coincide with the pitch ladder on the HUD
• Anti Collision light indicator for the Shikra flashes with the anti-collision light
• Flap indicator shows landing for takeoff position and shows takeoff for landing position

 

 

[mrsandbox 36]

1. Playing as JTAC in editor, marking target via laser device, make a search and destroy wp for a blackwesp over not moving tanks, -  

    The Blackwesp is not using the bombs, but the cannon, diving very low into the enemy tanks getting shot. Slowers speed for some reason.

    It should use bombs/rockets and stay in safe height. 

 

2. Sound of the jet in the same test does not feel right. It is very silent for the fact that its flying 150 meters above my head.

 

 

[peegee 118]

I found some small issues regarding unit insignias.
Gryphon example:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/159158721866113209/94AB3243793DBB7B0A8848EAE1BBC6288E260C21/

If I remember this right, some if not all jets also had the insignia mirrored on the other side of the.

Insignias on Gryphon are very small compared to, for example Shikra, where it looks very nice and clear.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/159158721866112968/1BD6F334BD8CF68D928F2C9D93E2CE953784AA35/
 

[venthorror 117]

Shikra flight attitude indicator. (turn indicator) is reverse.

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T124345

 

 

P.S.

I hope you are monitoring Flight model thread so we don't have post everything all over again.

[aardvark892 2]

So... I'm a bit confused at the moment.  I purchased the DLC pack that includes Jets, Orange, Tanks, etc. through the BIS website.  Not sure what happens next... I'm assuming that I will receive an email upon release of each pack that will provide me with a code to use in Steam.  Is that right?  Also, I've upgraded to the Development version of Arma 3, and I can see the new jets, but for some reason they are locked and I cannot board them.  When I try it asks me to purchase the DLC.

 

Can someone help clue me in?  Thanks in advance for any assistance!

 

Tim

[teabagginpeople 398]

9 minutes ago, aardvark892 said:

So... I'm a bit confused at the moment.  I purchased the DLC pack that includes Jets, Orange, Tanks, etc. through the BIS website.  Not sure what happens next... I'm assuming that I will receive an email upon release of each pack that will provide me with a code to use in Steam.  Is that right?  Also, I've upgraded to the Development version of Arma 3, and I can see the new jets, but for some reason they are locked and I cannot board them.  When I try it asks me to purchase the DLC.

 

Can someone help clue me in?  Thanks in advance for any assistance!

 

Tim

there is an issue with the bis store bought dlc not showing up. it's being looked into. you can use the jets in the virtual garage.