General Discussion (dev branch)

[Variable 322]

Wasn't it like that in the beginning, during alpha iirc, but then it was changed to current behavior for some odd reason?

Upvoted.

Correct. In Arma 2 and the early days of Arma 3 the behavior was correct. You can even find a post by OMAC complaining about the change the day it was changed.

The change was by design and was encouraged by the graphical representation of the fire mode lever on the MX weapon series. However, that was short sighted because it didn't take all the factors Varanon mentioned in his post, notably grenades switching that had become a terrible nuisance, but also any other weapon mode switching. The behavior was good in Arma 2 and the beginning of Arma 3, it just needs to get back to how it worked then.

[danil-ch 165]

More sound bugs.

Metal plates sounds are played even if you have civilian cloth (only when you change your stance or roll on the ground)

When you hit an Enemy, pain sound is coming from player

[doveman 7]

Upvoted. Especially for grenades this is extremely annoying, since I have a setup with double-tab G to throw and CTRL-G to cycle through grenades. When I cycle too quickly, the double-tab ignores the control key and throws a grenade... I'll be lucky if it is just a smoke.

Upvoted as there's no question this needs to be changed. I would recommend putting throw grenade on a separate key though (I use double-tap I, with G for gear and Ctrl-G for grenade switch, although I'm also using the Switching Weapons on the Move mod, which lets me use Shift+3 to cycle thrown objects as well) to avoid any chance of accidentally throwing a grenade. Even with my keys, the current HUD/switching behaviour is damn annoying, so I'm not suggesting changing key assignments can in any way reduce the need for this to be fixed but you can at least minimise the chance of accidentally throwing stuff ;)

[das attorney 857]

Mr V - disagree about the fire selection. I like having a button to change it (without a check). It's consistent with every other game ever and the old Arma system used to make no sense. I know what fire mode I'm in most of the time, so I'd have to double tap it just to change.

Plus, if you went into GL (which is weirdly on the same selection button but I'll get into that in a moment) then you may have to single tap to get back to rifle or maybe double tap depending on the length of time you've been in the GL. WTF is that? It made no sense and I'm glad they changed it.

I agree about the grenades though. I'd like the UI to be separated though so checking grenades does just that and doesn't reveal fire mode your gun is in. Otherwise we are in the weird situation of "looking" at grenades and also discovering what fire mode we are in. That has no rhyme or reason to me.

Also, the GL being on the same button as fire mode doesn't make sense. Why not just have another keybinding (or reappropriate one of the existing ones). People moan about extra keybinds but one for GLs seems pretty mandatory in most other shooty PC games.

That really is the problem to me - not that you have to cycle the firemode to bring up the UI in the top tight - it's that all of this stuff is bound to common controls and common UI.

:)

[doveman 7]

I had this problem as well.

As did I.

[Variable 322]

Thanks Das, I was wondering who might be liking the current state.

Mr V - disagree about the fire selection. I like having a button to change it (without a check). It's consistent with every other game ever

Other games are no comparison because they have a permanent HUD. Show me a game without one and then the argument will be valid :)

I know what fire mode I'm in most of the time, so I'd have to double tap it just to change.

That boils down to not needing an indication at all. you do agree the game should support people who would like to know what weapon mode IS rather than knowing what it WAS, right?

Plus, if you went into GL then you may have to single tap to get back to rifle or maybe double tap depending on the length of time you've been in the GL. WTF is that? It made no sense and I'm glad they changed it.

I don't understand...

I agree about the grenades though. I'd like the UI to be separated though so checking grenades does just that and doesn't reveal fire mode your gun is in. Otherwise we are in the weird situation of "looking" at grenades and also discovering what fire mode we are in. That has no rhyme or reason to me.

Well if BIS will come up with a revolutionary feedback system that reports the current grenade and fire modes selections then of course all my claims will become invalid, but as long as we rely on the HUD, you can't use it if you just want to check what you have selected, it's just wrong from any angle I can think of especially - UI, usability and UX. If you play Coop, you can hear everybody going "click-click-click" all the time because of this failed design.

That really is the problem to me - not that you have to cycle the firemode to bring up the UI in the top tight - it's that all of this stuff is bound to common controls and common UI. :)

But will you agree that as long that we have to rely on the HUD the current behavior is wrong?

[OMAC 254]

Guys, I would like to gain support of the following issue, if you agree, please vote the ticket.

Upvoted. Related to my original ticket from July 2013:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=11151

The problem is that the main reason the Arma 2 behavior was changed was to support the fire selector switch animations on weapons. But myself and others suggested several possible solutions/workarounds.

Edited August 13, 2014 by OMAC

[Alwarren 2765]

Mr V - disagree about the fire selection. I like having a button to change it (without a check). It's consistent with every other game ever and the old Arma system used to make no sense. I know what fire mode I'm in most of the time, so I'd have to double tap it just to change.

I think that consistency with other games is a rather weak argument. But there is no denying that the information what fire mode your weapon is on can be of utmost importance, and there is NO WAY to get to that information other than going Hesidenberg on it. At the very least, there has to be a way to find out what firemode your weapon is on. The fire select lever is a gimmick and doesn't help, since it doesn't show the UGL and it is nost vibisle on most bullpup weapons and/or at night. And it doesn't say anything about the selected grenade.

I agree about the grenades though. I'd like the UI to be separated though so checking grenades does just that and doesn't reveal fire mode your gun is in. Otherwise we are in the weird situation of "looking" at grenades and also discovering what fire mode we are in. That has no rhyme or reason to me.

I generally strongly dislike the handling of grenades in Arma 3. Games like Project Reality or America's Army do a much better job at it. Arma 3's grenade throwing is way too quick, you don't need to equip a grenade, and before the cooldown was introduced, it was possible to spam grenades like a GMG, since they are ready to use even from the backpack. But in the current context, cycling through the list of grenades is generally going to be lethal. If you are a squad leader, that means

Frag grenade -> IR Grenade -> Smoke Shell (White) -> Smoke Shell (Green) -> Smoke Shell (Blue) -> Smoke Shell (Orange) -> Chemlight (green)

which is 7 stages long. Grenade selection through cycling is clumsy at best, considering that if you are on the IR grenade, it will take you seven keypresses to get back to the frags that might have saved your life. As much as I hate to say it, a radial menu would go a long way to make grenades more useful.

Also, the GL being on the same button as fire mode doesn't make sense. Why not just have another keybinding (or reappropriate one of the existing ones). People moan about extra keybinds but one for GLs seems pretty mandatory in most other shooty PC games.

Agreed, the 'F' key is completely overloaded, thankfully grenade selection is now separated but still neither system (old or new) is very functional. There is no direct selection of either fire mode, grenade launcher, or grenade type

That really is the problem to me - not that you have to cycle the firemode to bring up the UI in the top tight - it's that all of this stuff is bound to common controls and common UI.

As a matter of fact, though, the way things currently are completely makes unavailable a set of vital information that is not obtainable by anything else but changing the state. Which absolutely should not happen. You should be able to see what fire mode you are on, whether your next shot will fire a grenade or a rifle round, and what your grenade key is throwing. I've said before that I am a fan of minimal huds, and if the information is available elsewhere, and accessible (i.e. I don't want to have to drop my weapon in order to see it), then I am all for it. But seeing how getting in and out of a vehicle already changes the fire mode involuntarily, whatever personal preference one might have, the current system is completely inadequate and urgently needs an overhaul. Preferably, there would be a direct approach to selecting things (like the aforementioned radial menu for grenades) instead of the more than cumbersome cycling (which is additionally painful because of this), but in the absence of such, at least there needs to be a way to access the information without changing it, and I don't think keeping the HUD up is a good idea either.

[das attorney 857]

Aaargh, multiquote hard to reply to, but yes, agreed it's not ideal situation.

In an ideal world, I'd like a button that checks fire-mode by whipping the camera round to look at the selector (and maybe brings the gun off your shoulder a little bit like you would do IRL to check). When you release, everything pops back to firing position.

The check for grenades I haven't thought about, but something better could be done than current implentation.

The issue I had with the old Arma 2 system - one tap to check and then another to change is that it had a timer on it linked to the UI. Consider the following:

I change to GL using "F".

Fire some grenades

Then when I change back to rifle, I have to "check" I'm in GL mode before going back to rifle. But I know that already as I've got the GL leaf sights up. So really what I'm saying is the behaviour was illogical with the different weapon systems.

(Just so you know, I don't have a beef with you and I agree it's not fit for purpose). Be nice to see some progress from BI here.

[Alwarren 2765]

Then when I change back to rifle, I have to "check" I'm in GL mode before going back to rifle. But I know that already as I've got the GL leaf sights up. So really what I'm saying is the behaviour was illogical with the different weapon systems.

Only a handful of custom weapons have leaf sights, the BIS default weapons all have the quadrant sight that doesn't need to be flipped up. I wish there was a visual clue like this, but since most GL's don't have that, and the fire selector switch is well out of sight for most of the weapons (and plain invisible at night) these aren't working either.

IMO the best would be to have a complete overhaul of the fire selection system, as I said before (including direct access of GL/grenades/fire mode using e.g. a radial menu). But without that, at least there must be a way to get the HUD back to verify the settings.

[das attorney 857]

Hmm, maybe we're misunderstanding each other - I distinctly remember the old L85 from BAF having leaf sights (that were a display, not 3d model). I just booted up A2 to check, and it does act like I described.

Like I was saying, it was only what I'd like to see in a Das Attorney TM version of the world (although the limitations you mention about darkness and also the position of the selector could be got around), but I know it wouldn't/couldn't be changed like that this late in the day.

I could go with a radial system or some sort of other UI though.

[OMAC 254]

But without that, at least there must be a way to get the HUD back to verify the settings.

Word up.

[Variable 322]

In an ideal world, I'd like a button that checks fire-mode by whipping the camera round to look at the selector (and maybe brings the gun off your shoulder a little bit like you would do IRL to check). When you release, everything pops back to firing position.

Won't work during the night. In real life you'd feel the lever with your finger, you won't look at it.

[das attorney 857]

Animated "fingering" of fire selector and/or little icon with fire-mode popping up if too dark to see maybe. There's definitely ways round problems like that. I haven't really thought about it too much but I'm just throwing ideas about.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

IMO "Permanent extended HUD info" should still be toggle-able in Veteran+Expert difficulties (currently it's locked out once you get past Regular difficulty) and the game should really only force fading out the ammo counters in the extended HUD when the higher difficulty settings are applied. That way people can choose to still be able to see their weapon's firemodes if they want it there, and only have to do manual checks on ammunition levels.

It's really no more of a 'cheat' having that info in the top-right of the HUD all the time than being able to look down or thumb over the selector switch on a real weapon. Removing the savant-like knowledge of exactly how many rounds are in your current magazine at all times is the purpose of the fading extended HUD at those difficulty settings, but it makes it cumbersome when you want to check other aspects of your weapon's status, that would be permanently accessible IRL.

[das attorney 857]

My fave gun mechanics in a game is this. It's been bandied about on the forums before but there's some great ideas and implementation in there. It benefits from not having a avatar for the player, but it's really clever and worth checking out. It's about $5 if anyone's interested.

Probably outside the scope of Arma though as we can't have last-round-in-chamber or persistent firemodes due to guns being strings and not vehicles.

Well put there da12th - I wasn't bashing your idea to revert to the old system Variable, but I think it had it's flaws and the new one certainly has flaws, so they need to think differently to sort out the problems.

[Alwarren 2765]

IMO "Permanent extended HUD info" should still be toggle-able in Veteran+Expert difficulties (currently it's locked out once you get past Regular difficulty) and the game should really only force fading out the ammo counters in the extended HUD when the higher difficulty settings are applied. That way people can choose to still be able to see their weapon's firemodes if they want it there, and only have to do manual checks on ammunition levels.

I've said it multiple times in the fatigue thread already that I very much prefer as minimal a hud as possible. I loved the fact that ACE removed the ammo count, yet introduced a method of checking via a key/approximate fill meter which makes a lot of sense since it mirrors real-life handling of a gun. It would be great if there would be something similar in Arma 3, but for the firemode switch, there would have to be a way to check it even on weapons were the normal head movement is not possible (by having a "look at weapon" function that would hold the weapon as required to see the lever, or by having a "feel fire selector" button that gives feedback).

This won't work for grenades though, or the UGL. The UGL is generally handled a bit weirdly in Arma 3 (as it has been in all previous arma games) - The hands for example stay on the main trigger, so with a quadrant sight there is no indication whatsoever that the next shot is going to fire a grenade (unless you aim down sights, or have the unrealistic crosshairs enabled). Compare this to e.g. Project Reality where a) the grenade launcher is correctly reloaded AND the weapon is held differently. I think it was that way in America's Army too, but I never played that enough.

For grenades, I greatly dislike the fact that you "just throw them". You should, as in (again) Project Reality, take it in your hands before throwing it.

It's really no more of a 'cheat' having that info in the top-right of the HUD all the time than being able to look down or thumb over the selector switch on a real weapon. Removing the savant-like knowledge of exactly how many rounds are in your current magazine at all times is the purpose of the fading extended HUD at those difficulty settings, but it makes it cumbersome when you want to check other aspects of your weapon's status, that would be permanently accessible IRL.

Agreed. The information the HUD presents are accessible in reality, so they should be accessible in game. The HUD is, every time, just a crutch at best, and a cheat at worst, and the best kind of games manage to go without one and represent the information otherwise. But that is difficult to do, so I'd rather go with a cheat than not having that information available, especially with grenades. And, as I said before, being able to select a specific grenade immediately without having to cycle through a list of (potentially numerous) options to find the right one.

---------- Post added at 17:05 ---------- Previous post was at 17:04 ----------

Hmm, maybe we're misunderstanding each other

Actually, yes. I misunderstood that you were talking about Arma 2, I thought you were referring to Arma 3. My bad :)

[gliptal 25]

I think we all agree that ArmA has some big problems in weapon handling.

Yay!

[roberthammer 582]

I do agree arma 3 has these problems - only if arma 3 had the weapon handling like RO2 or like Insurgency (checking ammo , fire rates etc)

also those grenades should be selected first , see them in your hand and then actually use it just like in RO2

only a few games did it right , shame that the arma 3 didn't

Edited August 13, 2014 by RobertHammer

[roshnak 41]

IMO the best would be to have a complete overhaul of the fire selection system, as I said before (including direct access of GL/grenades/fire mode using e.g. a radial menu). But without that, at least there must be a way to get the HUD back to verify the settings.

I agree that the weapon selection system needs an overhaul, but why on earth would you want to use a radial menu? They are such a clumsy, console oriented mechanic. There are over 100 keys on a keyboard and easily 35 within reach of your hand (assuming a conventional WASD control setup), and the number of usable keys only grows with modifier keys. There should be more than enough keys for me to push a single button and select my desired weapon instead of having to hold a key and select the thing I want from a list.

Removing the savant-like knowledge of exactly how many rounds are in your current magazine at all times is the purpose of the fading extended HUD at those difficulty settings, but it makes it cumbersome when you want to check other aspects of your weapon's status, that would be permanently accessible IRL.

Right, and you could easily fix the unrealistic knowledge of remaining ammo by using color coding or a bar (or both) to represent ammo instead of hard numbers.

only a few games did it right , shame that the arma 3 didn't

Plenty of games have done it right. Use the number keys to select weapons instead of the dumb action menu and cycle with "F" combo.

1 for rifle, 2 for UGL, 3 for pistol, 4 for frag, 5 for smoke etc.

Alternatively, do it Half-Life style where number keys cycle through classes of weapons. So pushing 4 multiple times would cycle between the different throwables in your inventory.

Edit: You may be referring to the ammo and fire mode checks. If that's the case, then I would say that whether or not RO's method is the right way is debatable.

Edited August 13, 2014 by roshnak

[Alwarren 2765]

I agree that the weapon selection system needs an overhaul, but why on earth would you want to use a radial menu? They are such a clumsy, console oriented mechanic. There are over 100 keys on a keyboard and easily 35 within reach of your hand (assuming a conventional WASD control setup), and the number of usable keys only grows with modifier keys. There should be more than enough keys for me to push a single button and select my desired weapon instead of having to hold a key and select the thing I want from a list.

It doesn't really matter how the specific implementation looks like as long as I don't have to cycle through a potentially long-assed list of options manually AND be handicapped by a system that doesn't take qualifier keys into account correctly. Whatever alternative would be used, it would be a million times better than what we have now.

I also don't believe that overloading the keyboard is a good idea. As an option, yes, but I personally prefer a visual selection on screen over yet another keyboard control which we already have so many of that most people are scared away by the sheer amount of it.

[Brisse 78]

The thing you have to keep in mind is that Arma is way more complicated than most first person shooters that people here use as comparison. Almost every single key on the keyboard is already mapped to do something. Sure, it's nice to use 1,2,3,4 etc. to change equipped weapon like in Battlefield-series, but those keys are already used for something else in Arma, something that is actually more important in my opinion than changing weapons. You don't change weapon as much in Arma as in let's say Battlefield, or even some more extreme example, like Quake 3 where you change several times a second sometimes. Arma is paced much slower, and focuses on realistic scenarios. 99% of the time you just use your rifle. There's plenty of time to change weapon with the action menu by using scroll wheel. Trust me, it's even more fiddly to handle a real weapon.

[roshnak 41]

It doesn't really matter how the specific implementation looks like as long as I don't have to cycle through a potentially long-assed list of options manually AND be handicapped by a system that doesn't take qualifier keys into account correctly. Whatever alternative would be used, it would be a million times better than what we have now.

I also don't believe that overloading the keyboard is a good idea. As an option, yes, but I personally prefer a visual selection on screen over yet another keyboard control which we already have so many of that most people are scared away by the sheer amount of it.

People are scared away because the options and keybinding menu is a nearly unreadable mess, not because there are a lot of keys.

There are very few keyboard functions in Arma that I use regularly: Sprint, walk/run, combat pace, lean left and right, prone, crouch, stance adjust toggle, reload, switch firemode, map, compass, watch (maybe), select grenade, inventory, and sight adjustment up and down. That's less than 20 keys.

If the keybinding menu was reasonably sorted and didn't have a bunch of similarly named functions whose differences are not immediately clear (there are bindings for both "prone" and "go prone", for example) people would not find the controls to be so daunting.

I also don't think it's reasonable to assume that anyone would be scared away by the addition of 4-6 keys allowing players to select weapons with the keyboard, an ability that has existed in almost every PC shooter ever made.

The thing you have to keep in mind is that Arma is way more complicated than most first person shooters that people here use as comparison. Almost every single key on the keyboard is already mapped to do something. Sure, it's nice to use 1,2,3,4 etc. to change equipped weapon like in Battlefield-series, but those keys are already used for something else in Arma, something that is actually more important in my opinion than changing weapons. You don't change weapon as much in Arma as in let's say Battlefield, or even some more extreme example, like Quake 3 where you change several times a second sometimes. Arma is paced much slower, and focuses on realistic scenarios. 99% of the time you just use your rifle. There's plenty of time to change weapon with the action menu by using scroll wheel. Trust me, it's even more fiddly to handle a real weapon.

You change weapons a lot more than you use the radio menu, unless you are the squad leader of an AI squad. In fact, unless you are leading an AI squad or there is some scripted support function included in the mission, you probably never use the radio menu.

Even if the radio menu was commonly used, ACE 2 solved this problem by using shift and the number keys to select weapons, such that SHIFT+1 selected your primary weapon, SHIFT+2 selected the GL, SHIFT+3 was the launcher, etc.

Edited August 13, 2014 by roshnak

[miketim 20]

I didnt even realize ACE 2 had that functionality until a pretty good while (months probably) of using it.

I also barley ever used it, did it have any actual advantage besides ease of use (like weapon switch speed or something?)

[roshnak 41]

I didnt even realize ACE 2 had that functionality until a pretty good while (months probably) of using it.

I also barley ever used it, did it have any actual advantage besides ease of use (like weapon switch speed or something?)

What other advantage could it have or would it even have needed?

ACE 2 had an option to change the switch weapon key so that it only changed firemodes, which, in combination with the aforementioned weapon selection keys, made the whole weapon selection process function more naturally and made it less prone to errors. Basically, you always knew that hitting "F" would toggle firemodes (semi, burst, auto, safe) and you always knew that when you hit SHIFT+2, your UGL would be selected, and when you hit SHIFT+1 your rifle would be selected, and if you wanted to pull out a grenade, you could hit SHIFT+4. There was no guesswork involved in which weapon you had selected or which weapon was going to come out next at any time.

Let's outline a situation with the default weapon select system in Arma 3:

Let's say I'm firing at targets with my rifle and I see something I want to shoot with my UGL. If my rifle is not select fire, then hitting "F" once will switch to my UGL and I can fire. If it's select fire and only has two fire modes (single and burst or single and auto) and I'm firing in single shot mode then I will have to hit "F" twice before I can fire off a grenade. If I am in the second fire mode (auto or burst) then I will only have to hit "F" once before my UGL will be selected. If my weapon has three fire modes (single, burst, auto) then I will either have to hit "F" once, twice, or three times before my UGL is selected, and then hit the key once, twice, or three more times to get back to my rifle and it's desired fire mode.

This can become confusing if I haven't fired my gun for a while and I don't remember which fire mode I currently have selected. I may accidentally cycle past my UGL and have to go all the way back around to re-select it. This was even worse in Arma 2 because you also had frag and smoke grenades to cycle through as well.

And what if I have a pistol out because I'm out of ammo for my primary, but I want to use the UGL to put a grenade through the window of a house down the street? I have to select my rifle from the action menu and then hit "F" between one and three times in order to select the grenade launcher.

With the ACE 2 system, all I have to do at any time to select my UGL is hit SHIFT+2. It does not matter whether I am in burst or single fire or if I have a rocket launcher or rifle or pistol currently in my hands. Hitting SHIFT+2 will equip my rifle and select the UGL. If I want to go back to my rifle, I hit SHIFT+1 and I select my rifle again and it's still in the fire mode that I had previously selected. If I want to select my rocket launcher, I don't have to mess around with the action menu and accidentally open the door behind me or access the inventory of my friend's dead body that I'm hiding behind. I just hit SHIFT+3 and my rocket launcher comes out.

It's just a better and more intuitive system, where you always know the results of your actions.