Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[Greenfist 1863]

In case the new system still isn't clear to everyone - I cracked the code :rolleyes: , and this is how it works:

 

Stamina = the time how long the sprint button has an effect. [in seconds]

Maximum stamina = (1 - load player) * 60   [in seconds]

Regeneration rate = maxStamina / 45   [seconds / second]

 

If the stamina hits zero, there's a 15 second cooldown before the sprint button is reactivated.

The sprinting is disabled completely only if your load exceeds 100%, which is almost impossible to achive.

 

No other factors.

 

"A dedicated group of designers from various departments took on the challenge of revisiting this aspect of the game." :D

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Pretty sure Snipers post was firmly tongue in cheek ;)

 

Spot on.

 

After reading dev statements and the effort to justify to us the system and why they're doing it, I doubt we're going anywhere by discussing this. It's obvious they have spent a lot of time and effort on this which they consider a better system, and I doubt they will proceed to throw it away and reconsider making tweaks to the old system to improve it's transparency and function. I understand and respect that.

 

It's the same thing as with prone deployment, majority of us might not like it, but we're not the ones wearing the "Game System Designer" badges, so trying to convince anyone otherwise by trying to refute walls of text with other walls of text is futile and basically makes us seem like, as a friend of mine put it, "one of them realism freaks who cares too much, it's just a game".

 

I feel like all we can do clench our butts and wait for someone else to reinvent the wheel that was already there, hence the capitulating and completely sarcastic tone of that post. Because...you know...someone will make a mod to make it better, because ... you know ... they gave us all them tools.

[Alwarren 2767]

After reading dev statements and the effort to justify to us the system and why they're doing it, I doubt we're going anywhere by discussing this.

Which is weird considering it was supposedly changed because of feedback. But seeing how the overwhelming majority here dislikes the changes, I cannot help but wonder WHO exactly gave that feedback.

It's infuriating to see that a perfectly working system was replaced because of.. what, exactly? And apparently, feedback isn't really a driving factor either.

 

Frustrating. Very very frustrating. I can only hope that they come around and improve this, and if not, that at the very least we will be able to mod something.

[x3kj 1247]

 

WHO exactly gave that feedback

the part of the player base that never visits this forum, just "consumes" by running around with machinegun,  , launcher, full backpacks and the highest rated vest. (and complains at every social media about performance when their heavily scripted mission performs poorly on a weak limbed server)

 

It just baffles me when i read that several months went into this, prototypes and all that... and in the end it's such a run of the mill sprint system that you can find in basically any game nowadays...

[R3vo 2654]

In case the new system still isn't clear to everyone - I cracked the code :rolleyes: , and this is how it works:

 

Stamina = the time how long the sprint button has an effect. [in seconds]

Maximum stamina = (1 - load player) * 60   [in seconds]

Regeneration rate = maxStamina / 45   [seconds / second]

 

If the stamina hits zero, there's a 15 second cooldown before the sprint button is reactivated.

The sprinting is disabled completely only if your load exceeds 100%, which is almost impossible to achive.

 

No other factors.

 

"A dedicated group of designers from various departments took on the challenge of revisiting this aspect of the game." :D

[R3vo 2654]

Maximum stamina = (1 - load player) * 60   [in seconds]

 

What do you guys think about adding the damage of the player into account?

 

_maxStamina = (1- ((load player) + damage player)) * 60)

 

 

It seems to me that the player's damage has currently no effect on the stamina, and I'm pretty sure you won't run with a bullet in ya belly.

[Cenwulf 40]

I'm normally not one to chip in topics like this as generally I trust BI to do the best they can by their game and the community that surrounds it but as it's generally only the very vocal minority that get's their opinions heard I fell the need to get my feelings on the fatigue/stamina debate down.

 

The current system is beautiful in it's simplicity: The more weight you carry, the quicker you get tired. That's it. Nothing else. I love the current system, it feels authentic, it feels like it's grounded in reality. It's elegant and it does the job. The only two issues that seem consistently divide opinion on this system are the severity of the penalty and the lack of feedback regarding your character's current level of fatigue. The system itself is perfect, and the issues are matters of personal taste and preference.

To fix this all you need to do are two very simple things.

1. Introduce a number of distinct difficulty settings for the current fatigue system. I've listed 3 below by way of example:
None: no weight based fatigue system, jog and sprint to your heart's content.
Casual: the same fatigue system but more lenient. 50% reduction of fatigue build-up from all actions.
Realism: the current fatigue system in all it's glory.
Make these settings configurable as a simple drop down in the difficulty settings menu for single player. Make it so the fatigue setting is enforced server side but make the current setting of any serve is clearly visible from the server browser and even filterable.

2. Finally to address the feedback issue simply include a discrete optional UI element showing your current level of fatigue.

That's it. There is no need to invest time and effort into developing a new system. The proposed system of a stamina bar that is only depleted by sprinting is a huge step back and in no way embodies the spirit of authenticity and realism that sets arma apart from other military FPS games. It is in my opinion the most unrealistic, gamey way of handling this that I could have thought of and it caters almost exclusively to a very vocal minority subset of the community that are looking to turn arma into a clone of the same generic FPS games that arma originally drew us away from. You had a vision, an ideal, to try to encourage meaning and tactical decisions and you came up with a beautifully simple system that handled it perfectly and now you're about to take a huge step in the opposite direction. At some point you need to have the balls to stand up to your community and say "No, this is our vision for how this game should be played". For everyone who wants a more streamline arcade experience we have our CODs and our Battlefields. We don't need another one.

Please DO NOT make this new stamina system the default system that inducts new players into your game.

Please DO support and refine the current fatigue system and give people the option to play how they want to play, with all options presented on an equal footing.

[R3vo 2654]

Two thoughts that came to my mind:

 

Firstly, shouldn't the influence of the weight of the player's equipment be exponential instead of linear? I mean, going from 0 kg weight to 10kg, doesn't make huge difference, but going from 50 kg to 60 kg feels much heavier in real life. Even though I didn't find studies about this topic to support this idea, it would mayhabs solve the problem I had with the old fatigue system: Even with a light loadout you weren't able to sprint very long and the difference between heavy and light loadout was not enough noticeable.

 

Secondly, what about taking the temperature into account. On a hot day ones body is most likely not as stressable as on a cool day.

 

Both things would add more depth to the fatigue...sorry...stamina system.

[A. Lietuvis 13]

This is nonsense. Fucking Battlefield ArmA. WHat is this. Fatigue was what made ArmA 3 ArmA 3, not just ArmA 2 with better graphics! Bloody  Altis Life players, screwing over the veterans of ArmA. I can't wait for a standalone Altis life game, so that they all dissapear. Alas tho, seeing the way development is heading, that might simply be ArmA 3 in the future.

[domokun 515]

I also don't usually add my voice in such debates but this change really disappoints me. Firstly it seems to go against everything that the Arma franchise has stood for over the years: realism. I'm not talking about super-detailed, hardcore you-can't-hope-to-play-until-you've-read-the-first-100-pages-of-the-manual realism but something closer to RL than most games out there. Secondly I'm saddened by the justification for this change "because our rivals have implemented something similar" + "we invested many resources into its development". I've worked as a software engineer for the past 15 years and so I appreciate how hard and ungratifying it often is. But sometimes you have to listen to your customer, no matter how harsh it might feel. Judging from the feedback I've seen here, the vast majority (90+%?) aren't in favour of this change. Software like many aspects of life is very subjective, so often it is hard to get a clear answer. But if I saw 90% of my customers complaining about our new "improvement" we'd definitely consider rolling back. Please consider it because BI's track record in listening to the community is what keeps us here despite the bugs and poor performance. Personally I think that a compromise is prolly best, i.e. None/Arcade/Realism. Also I think that the stamina/fatigue system should appear in the in-game menu in much the same way that other game-critical and UX-heavy options do, e.g. AI, game aids, etc. Finally a simple bar to indicate your load and/or fatigue would really help, as per ShackTac Stamina Bar. We appreciate your efforts in constantly refining the game but I think this change went a step too far. Please learn from it and better luck next time! 

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

BIS, if the system will not change significantly, that will utterly mean that you guys don't listen to feedback given from people who care and take the effort to give it.

 

 

We here are a tiny tiny minority of A3 users. I would hope BI doesn't only listen to a tiny minority when making decision which affect everyone. Bottom line for me is that when you enable fatigue on a server, players look for other servers with fatigue off. 

 

That is feedback too. Not verbal, but only 10% of feedback is verbal anyways.

 

Most MANW entrants had fatigue disabled. That is feedback too.

 

90% of the community providing non-verbal feedback > 0.01% of the community in here providing verbal feedback

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Also, while this is hot...

 

Feedback Tracker - Feature Request - Fatigue Enabled bool

if (fatigueEnabled unit) then {
    [(group unit),0] setWaypointSpeed 'LIMITED';
} else {
    [(group unit),0] setWaypointSpeed 'FULL';
};

or

if (fatigueEnabled player) then {
     mission_time_to_complete = 900;  // 15 min to complete if fatigue enabled
} else {
     mission_time_to_complete = 600;  // 10 min to complete if fatigue disabled
};

Also a description.ext value would be handy, like how rotorLibSimulation works. Makes easy to check fatigue setting of the session, to incorporate that into player, mission and AI logic.

 

 

EDIT:

 

scratch that :)

 

• Added: Stamina script commands (getStamina, enableStamina, setStamina, isStaminaEnabled)

[ppitm 43]

The ONLY thing the fatigue system needed to be 100% player-friendly was Dyslexci's fatigue meter. Seriously.

 

He made that mod in about 30 seconds. And it even looked better than the PoS we have now.

[danil-ch 165]

It's ridiculous. HMG+TITAN too heavy for you? Just drop something (flashbang or pistol) and you good to go.

[twisted 128]

It's ridiculous. HMG+TITAN too heavy for you? Just drop something (flashbang or pistol) and you good to go.

 

good vids. things like this in Stamina seem to have not been thought through very well.

[bad benson 1733]

problem is, if you're gonna just disable certain anims it's going to be a true false situation. like a switch. no way of doing it seamless. so this was kind of expected i guess. but i agree that it's pretty bad. i think if one goes with an on off switch, it does not make any sense to use a dynamic value like the weird weight/volume values. it would make more sense to base it on weapon types or weights. shouldn't weapons already have some data that determines inertia for example? why not use that? i dunno. still haven't tested but from the looks of it this seems simplistic in a bad way. but it's the first draft i guess.

 

i would've loved a system that is simply used to penalise sprinting with sway and weight with loss of sprint time. the more you carry the more you get sway from sprinting and slower recovery and less sprint time. so at a certain weight you should lose sprinting ability. but jogging? that's weird without transition.

like i felt with the old system the largest problem was logic and recovery. so just having something dynamic (more weight = more effect = less sprint time) that recovers fast enough to avoid weird situations would be great. like with sprinting it wouldn't be so weird to have it go away at a certain very high weight. but if you're gonna force people to walk like in a good old RPG (which generally i like) then you will have to bring back seamless anim speed change or it's gonna feel stupid.

[Variable 322]

It's ridiculous. HMG+TITAN too heavy for you? Just drop something (flashbang or pistol) and you good to go.

These videos are what I mean by a slap in the face. This implementation, if intentional, is an insult to intelligence.

[roberthammer 582]

Great videos - showing the real issues , how anybody could run around with HMG + Titan AT launcher is beyond me 

 

for god's sake- that MMG is 10.8 kg , in the game it feels like 3kg SMG + Titan AT Launcher weights 8 kg

 

Loadouts like that should been penalized heavily ,but rather fixing issues like these you get this new stamina which makes things worse

[Variable 322]

It's like they make sprinting the crown jewel. The thing that if you can't perform you are penalized (and only for that). Look at real life combat videos, nobody hardly ever sprint. Oh, but sorry for bringing real life into the argument I forgot that we are trying to clone foolish systems from other unrealistic games.

[froggyluv 2136]

 "The People have spoken..." - Legatus Bohemius

 

 http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=19727

 

 Erhm, cough.

[DancZer 65]

The ONLY thing the fatigue system needed to be 100% player-friendly was Dyslexci's fatigue meter. Seriously.

 

He made that mod in about 30 seconds. And it even looked better than the PoS we have now.

Exactly! We asked for one, but they said we have enough feedback via breathing sound and pp effects.

I bet if we would have UI element like the new system have, the current system would be much obvious for newbies. It's that simple.

[R3vo 2654]

Exactly! We asked for one, but they said we have enough feedback via breathing sound and pp effects.

I bet if we would have UI element like the new system have, the current system would be much obvious for newbies. It's that simple.

 

I don't understand why they didn't create a small showcase to introduce new players to the fatigue system. It would be easy to create a small course with some shooting and crawling and so on and so forth...like the first mission of the OFP campaign. Together with some hints and the stamina bar it would have been way more clear for players.

[roberthammer 582]

I don't understand why they didn't create a small showcase to introduce new players to the fatigue system. It would be easy to create a small course with some shooting and crawling and so on and so forth...like the first mission of the OFP campaign. Together with some hints and the stamina bar it would have been way more clear for players.

There was in Bootcamp campaign

[five_seven5-7 56]

It's like they make sprinting the crown jewel. The thing that if you can't perform you are penalized (and only for that). Look at real life combat videos, nobody hardly ever sprint. Oh, but sorry for bringing real life into the argument I forgot that we are trying to clone foolish systems from other unrealistic games.

 

That´s right, IRL units barely run. They have a doctrine of always staying on the ground, rotate in ground to see enemies, going crouch move a little and repeate all over again. Most type of terrains dont benefits the running there is possiblity to fall.

 

Leave those high speed COD/BF missions, if the game was made like the hunter six; pilgrimage or all about roaming like the scout missions we wouldnt be talking about the need to overhauling the fatigue system.

[en3x 209]

"The People have spoken..." - Legatus Bohemius

 

 http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=19727

 

 Erhm, cough.

The entire title is wrong - Fatigue is unrealistic.

Not having fatigue is unrealistic.Not only OP creates

bunch of tickets all over the tracker he also states

that maps are too big and it takes to long to walk.

States:

in single player mode everyone uses the 4x time compression

vehicles can only carry a small amount of supplies about 10% of what a real truck even half the size of the ones in ARMA3 can carry

new weapons aiming system is now even worse

How can people or developers takes this kind of ticket series serious?