Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[Kerc Kasha 102]

while some improvements could be made to the old system throwing it out entirely for a sprint bar seems to be a strange decision.

 

this should be something based on server difficulty settings as i'm aware a lot of servers simply disable stamina and this kind of system would probably appreciated amongst those communities

[Kerc Kasha 102]

To be honest - BIS should create a CASUAL or a Arcade mode for those people that been whining about previous stamina system

 

and not forcing all A3 players to use this CASUAL mode ... (also what happend to make things optional?)

 

ah please don't even make a suggestion like that, last time I saw that was with RO2 and that game was an utter disappointment

[froggyluv 2130]

 

undergo a major overhaul largely based upon the community feedback received since the fatigue release.

 

 

 This is the cause more than anything.

 

Guys that liked the previous iteration were mostly silent as they simply checked off a mental check mark that things were good while haters screamed at the tops of their lungs on General bout "AI fookin worthless nao!!" and "This is Bullshit, what are these guys smokers!?!", "Im in better shape than these fat fucks!"

 

 Sucks I agree but your simply outnumbered and outvoiced by The Horde.

 

 I like the 'time in stance' idea tho.

[Alwarren 2765]

The old system was a groundbreaking innovation in the whole genre, and generally a bold move in my opinion. I really loved it after a few first iterations.

And just because no other game had the balls to replicate it, and it was somewhat confusing for some (really really) new players, you decided to scrap it completely?  :391:

Agreed. I don't really understand what was supposedly confusing about the original system. Moving makes you tired. Carrying stuff makes you tired faster. It's completely intuitive. the way things work in reality. I have no idea why it was changed, and the arguments given so far for the change make me pretty concerned.

[twisted 127]

 

Probably the most important change is that the basic movement (running) no longer deteriorate over time....... I would really appreciate your valuable feedback upon the subject matter. And in case that something will seem to be terribly wrong, please report it so we can fix it ASAP.

 

my feedback is that it's a step back. :(

 

 

 

rather than force this COD-ification on everyone, why not give mission makers more options on fatigue? maybegive mission makers the ability to determine how much the fatigue deteriorates when jogging,

 

but to make it so we can jog forever and regen stamina at the same time is not good. even simply making stamina not regen while jogging would be better.

 

i do however like the sound of

 

Relationship between the movement and weapon sway was reworked to maintain the important difference between a soldier who kept his pace steady and the one who just run for a mile. Every particular stance you are in has it's predefined aiming precision coefficient, multiplying the magnitude of the default sway. The longer you remain in certain state, the more is your actual sway approaching the precision defined for that stance. Time needed to reach that value is directly related to your equipment load, so that the more equipment you carry the sooner your weapon sway deteriorate in stances bad for precision and slower it is to stabilize back in stances with good precision.

can you give more detail?so it takes time for yoru aim to settle? if so then brilliant, maybe make it a little more noticeable, but if it is aim takes time to settle just like reality then that would be totally epic.  :)

 

 

maybe add arm fatigue (or should we call it stamina) when holding waving big guns like LMGs around without using support?

[froggyluv 2130]

 

but to make it so we can jog forever and regen stamina at the same time is not good. even simply making stamina not regen while jogging would be better.

 

 Yep this is*cough* twisted logic. The highest trained athletes would have a hard time doing this after a sprint which by the way doesnt in reality last for 60 seconds -that would be just a hard run. Add a heavy load to this and we're talking an impossibility.

[roberthammer 582]

It was optional! _lifePlayer enableFatigue false

Yeah i know but it seems that it wasn't good enough 

[Sniperwolf572 758]

Agreed. I don't really understand what was supposedly confusing about the original system. Moving makes you tired. Carrying stuff makes you tired faster. It's completely intuitive. the way things work in reality. I have no idea why it was changed, and the arguments given so far for the change make me pretty concerned.

 

The only thing needed was an actual stamina bar to illustrate what the hell was going on. They proceeded to uproot the system and then added one, when nobody will actually need it. Where the hell is logic in that? Sprinting for a minute might as well be sprinting for infinity. When has anyone ever felt punished that they can't sprint for 60 seconds but 30 between stops? Did it somehow become forgotten knowledge that in 60 seconds you can sprint across 50 of the "other game" maps?

 

Folks cried for a fatigue bar, because the current system of determining your fatigue state by aligning your heavy breathing patterns with the pitch shift of your wheezes multiplied by the amount of time your character coughs isn't exactly something you can judge anything by or plan when to rest.

 

People were given no feedback on how to use the current system properly, no way to see what is going on and and no way to plan it out. The result was obvious that they didn't know how to use it properly. The conclusion that the system is bad because of that is absolutely soul crushing. It's like giving first graders the collected works of Shakespeare and telling them to learn to read by themselves. It's like putting no fuel indicator in your car and judging how much you have left by trying to feel the weight of the car or how fast it accelerates.

[rübe 127]

:mellow:
 

Probably the most important change is that the basic movement (running) no longer deteriorate over time. While the old fatigue was slowly accumulating and gradually impairing your ability to move by animation slowdown and forced walking, the new Stamina let's you run around freely as it is usual in absolute majority of other games. Despite that we understand this as a sort of step back from the mil sim authenticity, we have also recognized that Arma is a platform for a much wider range of gaming experience, that we should respect one of the most fundamental standards in game industry and, most importantly, not to confuse the vast majority of our players.

Honestly? That's the reason?
People are confused (by a simple concept like fatigue - in a game like Arma...)? Industry standard? Fundamental at that too?
...I mean, you are aware that "popular" gamemodes like BR or KOTH easily can and do disable (or modify) fatigue - just for the plebs, right?
 
Why can't I stop thinking you guys just aren't up to fix the AI w.r.t. fatigue (or non-linear speed/movement capabilities), s.t. they would handle it in a reasonable way (...instead of constantly being fatigued and unable to keep formation and generally breaking all scenarios designed before its introduction)?
 
 

But fear not, Stamina in not meant to suit just the casual gameplay.

Yeah, I don't buy it.

-_-

[byku 13]

Oh God... i loved the previoud stamina! All it needed was the stamina bar, that's all ... this new one is... well... not good at least...

[kbbw123 115]

Feedback about the fatigue:

 

1st of really like the fatigue bar. the fact that we do not have to script one in is a plus.

 

2nd quite disappointing in how the new fatigue system turned out to be honest. Maybe its just because i like hardcore stuff quite a bit but the old system forced you to think how you went to the battle field. it stopped lesser smart gun an run junkies from running in with their maschinegun and Titan rocket launcher and breaking every last bit of immersion you could have in this game by turning it into cod/bf.... where by the way you still can't have a MG and RPG at the same time <.<

 

the old system was a system where you would go as and Inf with only your gun, 6 mags, a pistol with 4 mags and a few nades and thats it (except for the AR/AT or Ammobearer)

You had to use your brain a bit while playing and now its just... Oh i cant sprint.... then I'll run while stile have sniper aim on my MG!

 

I can understand that there is allot of complaints about the old system (Damn cod kiddies!) but could you atleast like the AFM make it optional to either use the old system or the new system (oh and of coarse the script commands to force everyone on the server to that specified version)

 

Much obliged!

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Basically it appears they looked at the whole encumbrance and fatigue system for Arma 3, which was pretty solid and unique and though:
 
"Fuck it, lets just go back and copy Skyrim or something instead - everybody loves Skyrim right?"

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I like it, but there are a few things that MUST be changed.

 

-Current running is fine, takes Stamina, it's good.

 

-Current jogging, NO. Jogging should not allow regeneration of stamina. It should stay still or go down very slowly. Not only that, but what on Earth is this system where having a ton of stuff on me doesn't allow me to jog, but sprint? Really? It should be the other way around. If i have a crap ton of stuff on me, i wouldn't be able to Sprint full, but rather simply jog. Please, make it this way instead.

 

-Walking, fine, regeneration of stamina in walking is fine.

 

-Terrain should still effect Stamina, watering it down for the soft is no way to "improve" Stamina. You can't physically Sprint up a hill with all this gear, and not be effected, and anyone who thinks they can, please, record yourself doing so, or it didn't happen, it's just not logical.

[St. Jimmy 272]

 

Hi guys,

 

as the recent OPREP unveiled, the Fatigue mechanics undergo a major overhaul largely based upon the community feedback received since the fatigue release. Changes are so substantial, that we've decided to name the new mechanics Stamina to strike a clear difference between the old mechanics and the new. So what does this Copernican revolution means to you in real terms? Paradigm shifts!

 

Probably the most important change is that the basic movement (running) no longer deteriorate over time. While the old fatigue was slowly accumulating and gradually impairing your ability to move by animation slowdown and forced walking, the new Stamina let's you run around freely as it is usual in absolute majority of other games. Despite that we understand this as a sort of step back from the mil sim authenticity, we have also recognized that Arma is a platform for a much wider range of gaming experience, that we should respect one of the most fundamental standards in game industry and, most importantly, not to confuse the vast majority of our players.

 

Overall, the Stamina work as reservoir for Sprinting. Full Stamina bar allows for 60 seconds of Sprinting. However, as carried equipment fills up your Inventory bar, the exact same portion is also reserved from the overall Stamina and thus cannot be used for Sprinting. Whatever remains at your disposal is your Stamina pool. Whenever you exhaust all of your Stamina, you have to recuperate for 15 seconds until you can Sprint again, but Stamina is regenerating during this exhaustion period. The whole Stamina pool always regenerate in 45 seconds from the total exhaustion to the full, regardless of how much Stamina it actually is. Less equipped soldiers can therefore Sprint for longer and will regenerate their Stamina faster than more equipped ones.

No, no, no just fucking hell no!

 

 

 

 

Bear in mind that not every state other than Sprinting is automatically regenerating Stamina. For example, moving in tactical pace is preventing Stamina regeneration and conserve the current state, whatever it is. This applies to swimming as well. We are still making some minor adjustments in determining which state is regenerating stamina and which does not. Check it out and let us know what do you think about it!

 

Also, you are no longer prevented from equipping more items than the current inventory bar allows for. However, when you do that, you will became encumbered and forced to walk.

 

Stamina bar indicating you current Stamina pool is positioned at the upper right corner, just below the weapon info. It is hidden by default, and is only visible when you are in the inventory or when your Stamina pool is changing or not full. It is red whenever you cannot Sprint. It is also augmented with Terrain and Injury icons that became visible whenever the terrain prevents you from sprinting and / or running.

 

We hope that you will enjoy to play Arma with this new, less restrictive mechanics more than before. As always, I would really appreciate your valuable feedback upon the subject matter. And in case that something will seem to be terribly wrong, please report it so we can fix it ASAP.

 

PS: Functionality of core config parameters is described here. Scripting commands available to you now are:

• getStamina //return current stamina
• enableStamina //on/off switch
• setStamina //set given amount of stamina
• isStaminaEnabled //check whether stamina is in effect
• setAnimSpeedCoef //set animation slowdown
• getAnimSpeedCoef //return current animation slowdown

 

I'm all for this but the above one doesn't sound good.

[Alwarren 2765]

http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-core-mechanics-refinement

 

After reading the OPREP on the topic,I still have no idea why the system was changed. Someone must have sat down and said "Guys, I have a great idea, let's make the stamina system not matter anything". I cannot for the life of me understand what the motivation was. If there was a transparency problem, why not simply add the stamina bar to the old system and be done with it? As it is now, loadout has next to no impact. Load up the armoury, jog to the 500 meter guy, drop to the floor and shoot the 1000 meter guy. No problem at all.

 

Seriously, we're going to try devbranch in tonights game to see this in action, but for all intent and purpose, I think this is a horrible idea.

 

The OPREP says "Feedback from scenario designers, modders and admins confirmed our suspicions that the system was not transparent enough for some (and not a small portion).". First of all, it's already quite telling that "and not a small portion" needs to be added here, because apparently, the portion wasn't that big to begin with if you need to justify it that way. Secondly, lack of transparency doesn't mean it's required to ditch the whole system. The stamina bar that is now in it could have made the system crystal clear. As it is now... I am not going to start again. This is simply an abomination.

 

EDIT: Also, why does tactical speed use stamina while jogging doesn't?

[byku 13]

Played a bit... holy crap :D. Wth? I mean, you've worked hard on the previous one, it was brilliant, original, sophisticated, authentic and you throw it all out and create THIS? O.o

[en3x 209]

I would like to see arma platform explored more - do we bow down to wide audience of arma players or do we keep it niche and hardocore?For me the answer is simple - its the reason why I pickep up arma from a get go.

Not confusing new players should be part of better tutorial or beter feedback system - that what you could improve instead of changing system behind it.

[St. Jimmy 272]

You should fix these things and keep the old system and improve it:

 

Having no weapon in hands fatigues you much less

Having binocs in the hands does the same thing

Keeping weapon up fatigues you more

Tune fatigue to the level of not having anything in hands like in the "old" system like I said above. Maybe getting fatigued should take longer but also recovering fatigue should also take longer. That would've easen things up a bit and make it simplier and less confusing because it mattered if you had hands free, weapon up or down. But no, you just scrap everything and make everybody super soldier again.

 

These were the things that likely caused some confusion and "abuse" or you need to learn those things. The amount of traveled was comparable with real life results and Arma men could pass military tests.

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

http://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-core-mechanics-refinement

 

After reading the OPREP on the topic,I still have no idea why the system was changed. Someone must have sat down and said "Guys, I have a great idea, let's make the stamina system not matter anything". I cannot for the life of me understand what the motivation was. If there was a transparency problem, why not simply add the stamina bar to the old system and be done with it? As it is now, loadout has next to no impact. Load up the armoury, jog to the 500 meter guy, drop to the floor and shoot the 1000 meter guy. No problem at all.

 

Seriously, we're going to try devbranch in tonights game to see this in action, but for all intent and purpose, I think this is a horrible idea.

 

The OPREP says "Feedback from scenario designers, modders and admins confirmed our suspicions that the system was not transparent enough for some (and not a small portion).". First of all, it's already quite telling that "and not a small portion" needs to be added here, because apparently, the portion wasn't that big to begin with if you need to justify it that way. Secondly, lack of transparency doesn't mean it's required to ditch the whole system. The stamina bar that is now in it could have made the system crystal clear. As it is now... I am not going to start again. This is simply an abomination.

 

EDIT: Also, why does tactical speed use stamina while jogging doesn't?

 

I thought a 25% reduction in effect, 100% reduction in accumulation rate, plus some way to know what your fatigue is prior to becoming combat ineffective (IE optional stamina bar), was all that was necessary to adjust. I have received good feedback re the stamina script in my sig, which is basically default fatigue*0.333.

[en3x 209]

to little refresh my memory on ehat achieves current system opposed to redesign.

-it makes your loadout weight matter

-reward smart pathfinding (the less steep the better)

-using correct jogging/moving pace allows you better speed managment

also stance and weapon position matter.

does new system forgets this pointers?

[twisted 127]

with the changed stamina has run speeds changed? they've always been a bit fast but the crouched run seems positively faster to me. but it just might be the unusualness of the new system (which aint good - i can sprint then jump down and have great accuracy with a lmg. no neeed for tactical approach) come on bis. this is too much in the wrong direction.

 

why the arcadisation of arma 3? the crouch run speed and run speed are almost the same. test it. press shift and run then crouch. the speed difference is hardly any. at least the crouch run should eat up stamina and be noticeably more slower.

 

please no stamina regen when jogging. inclines should affect stamina depletion more. even jogging up an incline should reduce stamina. recovery might be too fast. taking a breather or using proper transport (aka vehciles and logistics should be a real consideration)

 

just checked in virtual arsenal - running = 18km/h. crouch running = 17km/h. with a pack and weapons on. rly? crouch running should be noticeably slower and fatigue you far faster.

[CaptainObvious 95]

No no no, I'm not gonna believe what I just read, and I refuse to believe what I saw in-game regarding stamina.

This is the first time I'm actually slightly pissed off of a change made in the core mechanics of the game, it's not, and never should be, an excuse to "dumb down" your beautiful game because other games are dumb.

I assume AI is one of the reasons for this change, as they weren't exactly the best in managing their fatigue?

Please, PLEASE reconsider this.

[froggyluv 2130]

Yup it's not good choice BI. Why not simply make this current system to Recruit or even Standard but add Realistic Encumbered to Veteran and above. Doubt as many people use the TOH Flight model as would care about this- it's just too damn important to all us Ol Heads out here.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Oh my now that i gave this a quick test, it's even worse than I thought. Seriously I'm just running around with full inventory like nothing and weapon sway from beign tired and all that is non-existent. "Because of sandbox" my ass, they already can disable the fatigue if it doesn't fit in their "sandbox" which is what you've done currently, except it's even easier than with the enableFatigue false; in old system.

 

/I could give all kinds of feedback to tweak the old system. Come on ask us what you want to see to be tweaked in the old system and maybe even some add of depth in it. It could be made so it's more forgiving with some tweaks but still have the same gameplay effect at the same time.

[Maxzy 12]

Previously we had a stamina bar (which we could see in Virtual Arsenal), which was depleted at different rates when we ran, sprinted or tactical paced. At some point it prevented us from sprinting. It affected our speed and weapon sway - the lower the bar the lower your speed and bigger your sway. And in order to fill it again we had to stop or walk. I didn't check this new system, but from what I just read, I understood that this new system work as such - bar is filled not only when you walk or stand, but also when you run. Also bar is depleted much slower. And it does not affect your speed anymore, so everyone is runnig with the same speed. Did I get all this right?

 And another thing. First we have this:

 Relationship between the movement and weapon sway was reworked to maintain the important difference between a soldier who kept his pace steady and the one who just run for a mile.

And right after that we have this:

 Every particular stance you are in has it's predefined aiming precision coefficient, multiplying the magnitude of the default sway. The longer you remain in certain state, the more is your actual sway approaching the precision defined for that stance. Time needed to reach that value is directly related to your equipment load, so that the more equipment you carry the sooner your weapon sway deteriorate in stances bad for precision and slower it is to stabilize back in stances with good precision.

In second part I don't see no mention about  "relationship between the movement and weapon sway". So there is no mention of "important difference between a soldier who kept his pace steady and the one who just run for a mile". Is it because it's too early to say anything about it? Is it because my english is bad or is it because solzenicyn's english is bad =))? Or is there some other reason?