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eggbeast: you are also miss the fact, that you are aiming with mouse and it is a game. We need something more than weapon recoil. Inertia and sway are for changing the weapon behavior. If you master it you can be ingame professional. Justbas you have learned how to use real weapons too.

The fatigue: I think the whole fatigue thing is for forcing players to fight slower and avoid unreal CS or BF playstyle. That's the reason why we can't jump too. Just take a look some altis life, wasteland or breaking point. They always running everywhere just as Forest Gump did. Most of them don't use covers and don't stop to look around. It is very disappointing. If you are out of breath, you have to stop. Do you know what I mean?

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I am very satisfied with how fatigue and recoil work now. Good gameplay.

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This forum gets my goat sometimes, people can be openly rude and abusive and nothing happens, one passive comment and its infraction time. Seems a little heavy handed, far be it from me to critisize because that will get me an infraction.

A: it was a warning, not an infraction.

B: the post contributed nothing to the discussion and was undeniably aiming at people in this thread.

Any further discussion about the forum moderation should happen via PM.

§18) No public discussion on how the forum is moderated

If you have questions/complaints/comments about the forum or moderators please Private Message them to a moderator, we will do our utmost to reply to any that we receive. If you have an issue that you feel cannot be solved by another moderator then please Private Message the Bohemia Interactive Forum Moderation Team Leader (Matt), he will be happy to look into the matter. You may also ask your questions in the "Ask a mod" thread; however that thread is not to be used to attack/rant against specific moderators or about specific rules but more for questions/answers.

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I'm also satisfied with the current fatigue system. The unit I play with have had no issues with it :)

Re: My last post, I wasn't being pedantic about the meaning of the word fatigue eggbeast (I can see why it seems that way). I was implying that your suggestion may or may not have some value depending on which of the two BIS are actually aiming to simulate.

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i guess i was offering an insight into something very personal there, re the training and fitness in combat troops. personal to me and many of my buddies who discuss this. so i got a bit snippy, because people weren't really listening to what i was saying. happens i guess.

the thing is, for me and many ex-mil buddies, we can't abide it. it's also what made ACE utterly unplayable in A2.

speak to any gunsmith or ex-mil player (like our merry gang) and all the ones i know are hanging out in A2, cannot play A3 without this being fixed.

i guess eventually we will come to A3 and fix all the crap. at least arma has this possibility.

together we have pioneered a lot of cool shit in this game - airburst AAA flak, flamethrowers, tunnel complexes, knives and melee combat, practical no-NVG night-fighting, canister ammo, gas, dynamic rearming of planes, flashlights and flare pistols, all kinds of grenades, breaching charges, medpacks, fully animated vehicles (hatches, trim vanes, antennae, bush camo, camo nets, deployable weapons), all kinds of stuff... so it's just a pity we cannot yet bring it all to A3 before fixing the game...

Edited by eggbeast

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If the fatigue and weapon sway stops you from playing the game completely, you should consider modding them out. Like with this: http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=26975 (don't know if it works, just found it today)

And the fatigue you can disable with enableFatigue or use setfatigue to limit it to like 50%. Or use this mod.

I was in the mil, but don't find the system too unrealistic.

Edited by Greenfist

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speak to any gunsmith or ex-mil player (like our merry gang) and all the ones i know are hanging out in A2, cannot play A3 without this being fixed.

Why do you keep suggesting that people speak to gunsmiths? Why would a gunsmith necessarily have any knowledge of this stuff at all? That's like telling people to talk to a mechanic about what racing cars is like.

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The fatigue is acceptable, it brings a new level of mastery to the gameplay and i would say most people can agree on that including eggbeast. But when adding the sway into the mix too, it becomes a lesson in self flagilation to play arma.

No one here can honestly say the sway is realistic, I use that term as I hear "realisim" being banded around so often, anyone who does is simply not telling the truth or has never experienced those factors in reality. Massive sweeping figure of 8's, Bis can do better than that end of dit.

So I would presume what the majority of people who dislike the current sway system are asking for is, a revised and more accurate depiction of holding a weapon in a non supported or supported firing postion under various fatigue states, whilst keeping in mind the character is supposed to be a fit, healthy, well trained infantier. When they create a new recoil system, sway needs to be looked into as well.

To further my opinion, if the new recoil system just involves changing the pattern of lateral and horizontal camera movement, rather than creating a new visual system where something along the lines of the weapon/sight picture jurks towards the eye it will just be the same deal, but I'm hoping some real thought and time will be put into making it both as visually accurate as possible and fun, as an example making it balanced or equal to all players by making it harder to aim would be the opposite of positive.

To those who quite rightfully say its a skill but you have to master it, I'll tell you what my Sarge said to me once:

"True Infantry skill lays in your command of movement over the ground when closing with the enemy, any fool can shoot."

Edited by Bigpickle

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If the fatigue and weapon sway stops you from playing the game completely, you should consider modding them out. Like with this: http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=26975 (don't know if it works, just found it today)

And the fatigue you can disable with enableFatigue or use setfatigue to limit it to like 50%. Or use this mod.

I was in the mil, but don't find the system too unrealistic.

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=26813

Another mod but you can pick and choose what you want.

And I use

this enableFatigue false;

for all my friendly units, playable or not.

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there are too many freakin poor opinions here pickle! it's a chinese parliament of civilians who know nothing, i wouldn't waste your breath.

i'm en ex marine reservist, pickle served in iraq, lots of us who play together (A2 i might add) are in forces in scandinavia, served in us airborne, uk tank regiments, etc etc.

re fatigue

we all know from personal experience that a trained soldier can run 40 miles with a battle load inc camelback, and rifle and mortar plate/mgammo/radio/log/giant rope/ or w/e platoon deigns to give you to carry on top of your kit. we do it by speed marching - walk, run, walk, run and can fight effectively at any time on that run, or after the 40 miles (assuming we have some water! esp in arid conditions). in training, as i've said before on this forum, we were trained to carry the guy next to us on our shoulder for up to 200 yards, with our own kit and rifle. this involved wading rivers, sprinting through thorn bushes, slogging through thick peaty mires, etc all after days of no sleep and cold rations. it's part of the freakin job, and one of the things you feel proud to have done, looking back.

re weapon sway

anyone civ or soldier (like some of us in the team who are expert civilian gunsmiths) can aim ANY weapon and hit a man at 200m square in the chest even if we had been sprinting for 400m before...it might take a few secs to calm your breath, but as you need to hold it slightly when you fire, so long as you can, it doesn't matter that your next breath might be a big gaspy one... the point is you can still train your weapon, aim, breathe in, exhale, hold, fire... in the space of a few seconds.

the adrenaline and "battle joy" soldiers speak of (i didn't serve in the front line but many of the guys i know have) gives you a hell of a kick, and you can sustain a running fight for a long time.

so what does mess you up?

the adrenaline from being in a fight will kill your fatigue some time after the fight starts. fighting for a long time (the way for example the taliban like to work, switching positions, harassing fire, ambush and repeat ambush) can really grind a unit down. in many arma fights its one gang against another, and in that kind of square-go, any trained unit can nail and outmanoeuver the enemy pretty fast. or withdraw, depending on RoE/orders.

being under incoming fore can make you shake, but it can also give you a steely resolve to get the guy firing at you. a bit of randomness in fatigue would be good.

conclusions:

basing fatigue on weight carried and distance run is civlian crap.

basing it on time under fire, time firing, and wounds sustained is a far better approach for realism.

7 hours is about right for the commando test, i think it's 7.5hrs for troopers and 7 hours for officers. might be wrong was a long time ago. first time i ever marched 45 miles took me 20 hours (as a venture scout with an inexperienced team). second time took me 14 hours (with a much better team). once i joined up i could do it in 8.

in standard a2 dayZ i worked out you could run across the map at 1500m every 5 mins (good for planning rendezvous etc).

it would therefore take you an hour to run 12x1.5 = 18km or 12 miles.

running at 12 miles an hour is not really feasible unless you're a trained ethiopian marathon runner.

we used to do 9 miles in 1.5 hours speed marching carrying guys and packs and rifles. that's 6 miles an hour - half the speed of arma standard.

if you want to limit what people carry you should limit the capacity of their packs, and make the ammo (rockets, 200 round x 7.62 etc) take up large spaces in the pack, NOT make the guy stagger about and fall over after running a simple distance like 3-4 miles with a heavy pack.

and as for weapon sway, that's just fecked. take a bipod weapon lie down, (no exercise), aim down scope... sway... wtf... lol

A3 remains unplayable for me until that shite gets sorted out

Hahaha, what? 8 hours to do 40 miles. With kit? And then fight at the end? And aiming and hitting a man at 200m after sprinting 400m? Somebodies been drinking their own koolaid I think.

In Iraq it worked out that the US forces fired 1/4 of a million rounds per insurgent killed. Because shooting people is really, really difficult. On a range you may be able to get a hit on a target at 200m from prone every time, but I guarantee that you can't do it from 50m when they are shooting back.

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re fatigue

we all know from personal experience that a trained soldier can run 40 miles with a battle load inc camelback, and rifle and mortar plate/mgammo/radio/log/giant rope/ or w/e platoon deigns to give you to carry on top of your kit. we do it by speed marching - walk, run, walk, run and can fight effectively at any time on that run, or after the 40 miles (assuming we have some water! esp in arid conditions).

That's how the game works currently. You can slow-run pretty much indefinitely unless uphill with 30-40kg of gear on, fast-run maybe a few hundred meters before having to walk it out a while without getting too taxed. What you can't do is:

1) fast run over long distances with significant loads on

2) all-out sprint more than 250m

3) go up hills/stairs quickly

4) ignore your fatigue until it gets to 50%+

I've not been in the military, but I have backpacked and I do jog/sprint regularly (and shoot guns), and none of the current system seems ridiculous to me like some people are claiming. Is it perfectly accurate in depicting a Marine? Hell if I would know, maybe not, you seem to think so at least. It works for me, a mere civ who likes the outdoors.

Here's some data on the game for you to mull over:

Tac pace = 6.5MPH (with gun) 9min mile (not bad with a gun in your hand and some crap on your back, but nothing to brag about, I'd guess this is the "indefinitely maintainable speed" for an inshape person like that)

Run = 8MPH (with gun) 7.5 min mile (this is pretty good times for someone without any gear or a gun in hand on even flat ground)

Sprint = 12MPH (with gun) 6.8sec 40yard (it's 5.6sec without a gun, and I'd be thrilled to hit a 5.6 on the 40 personally)

You can indefinitely run at tac pace usually (with gun down), except uphill, maybe with walking for a bit every 500m or so if you've got a lot of gear on. So how fast DOES a Marine with 40kg of gear run a mile over uneven terrain with a gun in hand? You tell me. If you do 40 miles, do you do it in much under 6 hours? If so, well, the game has underestimated you I suppose (tac pace would take 6 hours to do 40mi).

re weapon sway

anyone civ or soldier (like some of us in the team who are expert civilian gunsmiths) can aim ANY weapon and hit a man at 200m square in the chest even if we had been sprinting for 400m before...it might take a few secs to calm your breath, but as you need to hold it slightly when you fire, so long as you can, it doesn't matter that your next breath might be a big gaspy one... the point is you can still train your weapon, aim, breathe in, exhale, hold, fire... in the space of a few seconds.

That's also how the game works if you master the sway mechanism! I just tested in VR. I got up to "no more run" fatigue. Then I stopped, pulled up my gun, waited 3 sec, held breath, and I could hit a guy at 200m with probably 75% hits on the torso.
basing it on time under fire, time firing, and wounds sustained is a far better approach for realism.
Well, they do base it on wounds. Just imagine the outcry if they added an additional adrenaline malus to this game, though.

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I just tested in VR. I got up to "no more run" fatigue. Then I stopped, pulled up my gun, waited 3 sec, held breath, and I could hit a guy at 200m with probably 75% hits on the torso.

so you shot at a stationary target that didn't shoot back like all the other VR "proof" videos? :p i'm also sure that most people who complain about the sway are also able to adapt and cope with it, if they want to. the ability to counter it to a degree says nothing about how well/badly done the system is.

even if you like every single aspect of it you'll have to admit that te sway "animation" is ridiculous at times, no?

about fatigue. i really wished BI would've done it like in other games, mainly RPGs, where you just get slower the more stuff you load up. this tight link between fatigue and sway is flawed. you get exactly the same effects from a sprint to the limit like from 100% fatigue over longer time/distance not sprinting. that's just not logical.

Edited by Bad Benson

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There's no bipods in the game by the way.

ah but there are! you can change the recoilprone on weapons with bipods in the models (like the LSW or RPK or M60) and they work a treat, but not with weaponsway involved, it overrules that.

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ah but there are! you can change the recoilprone on weapons with bipods in the models (like the LSW or RPK or M60) and they work a treat, but not with weaponsway involved, it overrules that.

yeah, I know. I was just trying to be a smartass, sorry.

I'm aware of the prone recoil config, but I didn't know there isn't one for the sway. Not weapon specific at least, only for animations in general, which would affect all prone precision.

Well, I guess we have to wait for the MM DLC.

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Hahaha, what? 8 hours to do 40 miles. With kit? And then fight at the end? And aiming and hitting a man at 200m after sprinting 400m? Somebodies been drinking their own koolaid I think.

In Iraq it worked out that the US forces fired 1/4 of a million rounds per insurgent killed. Because shooting people is really, really difficult. On a range you may be able to get a hit on a target at 200m from prone every time, but I guarantee that you can't do it from 50m when they are shooting back.

He is refering to this

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2013/december/12/131212-rm-commando-tests

He can do it at 50m i assure you.

Also for US forces to fire 1/4 of a million rounds per kia insurgent, not something to use boastfully as a bench mark, urban combat is very different to open warfare and personally I dont believe the figures. The US forces I met in Iraq were good soliders and didnt fire blindly at people.

Edited by Bigpickle

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I bet you he can't. I couldn't at less than 40m.

Also for US forces to fire 1/4 of a million rounds per kia insurgent, not something to use boastfully as a bench mark, urban combat is very different to open warfare and personally I dont believe the figures. The US forces I met in Iraq were good soliders and didnt fire blindly at people.

You can go ahead and not believe it all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it's true. In combat, accuracy drops to a point so low it may as well be zero. I have both personal experience in this and have thoroughly researched it too.

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He is refering to this

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and...commando-tests

He can do it at 50m i assure you.

Thing is, I can't see a single part of that, or even what eggbeast was recalling, which isn't possible to do in arma with relative ease. And the soldiers in arma are not even necessarily commandos... where is the problem?

Also for US forces to fire 1/4 of a million rounds per kia insurgent, not something to use boastfully as a bench mark, urban combat is very different to open warfare and personally I dont believe the figures. The US forces I met in Iraq were good soliders and didnt fire blindly at people.

Why don't you believe that? I don't see that as a sign of bad soldiering. Thats units that know how important firesuperiority is. When you see firefight footage do you think there is a dead insurgent on the end of every other shot those guys take? I really doubt it. I've read about engagements in Afghanistan that go on for hours and they end up finding only half a dozen dead enemy while the others have retreated. Its like you quoted:

"True Infantry skill lays in your command of movement over the ground when closing with the enemy, any fool can shoot."

It aint about being a super slick shot. Its about being able to focus fire, suppress the enemy and gain fire superity, so you can control where the enemy can and cannot move/attack while you safely close to a distance and position where you can trap and finish them. Or call arty or air support on their, now stationary, position.

All that being said, there are other factors making that high round to kia ratio, besides the ease of shooting accurately. Though it is still a contributing factor.

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so you shot at a stationary target that didn't shoot back like all the other VR "proof" videos? :p
I can shoot moving, shooting-back targets just as well ;) Do you want a video of that?
even if you like every single aspect of it you'll have to admit that te sway "animation" is ridiculous at times, no?
Oh, agreed. The A2 jiggly sway was more like what I experience when forming a sight picture. However, it doesn't offer the player any ability to counter it since it's so fast, so it ends up just being a non-skill reduction in aiming. I think having a system that allows skill to compensate for some of the inaccuracy is good, as it gives players a sense of agency in their accuracy, instead of just having it be 100% the avatar and game mechanics deciding their ultimate bullet spread.

If you can show me a better way of showing realistic sway while allowing the player the ability to use their own hand skills to partially counter it, I'm all eyes.

you get exactly the same effects from a sprint to the limit like from 100% fatigue over longer time/distance not sprinting. that's just not logical.
Agreed. We should have dual fatigue: short-term (lactic acid) and long-term (energy storage depletion), and perhaps also adrenaline as mentioned previously. That said, I would expect even more complaining from players when they had " that irreversible fatigue bug" after 45min sessions than we have now with just the short-term fatigue, which despite being extremely realistic in my eyes is still constantly attacked for being unrealistic by half the forum.

Yeah, you can do 40mi in roughly 6 hours in this game, but to be a green beret or whatever you are expected to do it in 8 in reality (in non-combat conditions mind you). But still "it's unrealistically punishing" :/

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Yeah, you can do 40mi in roughly 6 hours in this game, but to be a green beret or whatever you are expected to do it in 8 in reality (in non-combat conditions mind you). But still "it's unrealistically punishing" :/

Exactly this.

Agreed. We should have dual fatigue: short-term (lactic acid) and long-term (energy storage depletion), and perhaps also adrenaline as mentioned previously. That said, I would expect even more complaining from players when they had " that irreversible fatigue bug" after 45min sessions than we have now with just the short-term fatigue, which despite being extremely realistic in my eyes is still constantly attacked for being unrealistic by half the forum.

Ideal. Would be even more punishing than now, since, realistically, "energy" would a long time to regenerate. Currently, biggest punishment you is 45 seconds to rest - if you're a complete idiot and 100% exhaust yourself. Its probably just easier to lower your weapon and walk 3 out of every 15 seconds (to avoid any fatigue buildup) while covering large distances, than to implement an entire "long term fatigue system" which you also have to manage. Wouldn't be against it but the current system is "good enough". My opinion of course.

Edited by -Coulum-

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Oh, agreed. The A2 jiggly sway was more like what I experience when forming a sight picture. However, it doesn't offer the player any ability to counter it since it's so fast, so it ends up just being a non-skill reduction in aiming.

If you can show me a better way of showing realistic sway while allowing the player the ability to use their own hand skills to partially counter it

Speak for yourself, honestly.

I honed timing weapon sway-based shots after running down to a fine art.

Users at present are punished appropriately as they should be for whipping their mouse around trying to line up a target as if somehow they're a CIWS on legs. Players in this series need to learn that it's not, nor should it be like BF or CoD.

A2's system 100% skill based as you had to know when to shoot. For some people however I guess that's too hard.

Personally, I would like to see the inclusion of "lateral" inertia on recoils as well so that sustained fire becomes about as accurate as it should be.

Edited by Pd3

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I can shoot moving, shooting-back targets just as well ;) Do you want a video of that?

no. you missed my point. i can shoot too. everyone can. that says NOTHING about the quality of the implementation whatsoever. so please stop posting "proof" videos. "look the game is not totally unplayable"...no shit sherlock.

If you can show me a better way of showing realistic sway while allowing the player the ability to use their own hand skills to partially counter it, I'm all eyes.

yea no. obviously there's only two options. arma 2 and arma 3. tweaking values is kind of a crazy idea i guess.

Yeah, you can do 40mi in roughly 6 hours in this game, but to be a green beret or whatever you are expected to do it in 8 in reality (in non-combat conditions mind you). But still "it's unrealistically punishing" :/

that is totally irrelevant. people like you keep jumping from "oh it's for gameplay" and "oh it's realistic" as they please. it's fucking ridiculous. stop flip flopping and either stand behind your nonsensical reality comparisons or accept that anything is totally relativ and as you said aiming with a mouse is totally different.

and who gives a fuck about what you can do in 6 hours in this game? have you guys lost your mind? you know damn well that this is about crazy effects from just flanking enemies. hell you even get weird delayed shaking from side stepping. it just isn't good. but yea. as long as you can do 6 hours tours faster than in reality it's already not "realistic" enough FPDR what does the distance you can travel have to do with overdone weapon sway and it being too tied to fatigue? please enlight me...these forums are so retarded sometimes...

Edited by Bad Benson

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please enlight me...these forums are so retarded sometimes...

Did you read the posts that started this discussion?

Eggbeast: Fatigue is too punishing because in real life, soldiers train to travel this far in this amount of time and fight at the end of it.

DNK: In Arma, you can do the same thing, but faster.

Edited by roshnak

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yea no. obviously there's only two options. arma 2 and arma 3. tweaking values is kind of a crazy idea i guess.
k, so tweak it. Like I said, if there's a good alternative, I would like to see it. Of the options I've seen up until now in this game, the current one is my favorite, and I personally don't see much need for tweaking, as it's a good balance between challenging and forgiving in my book (though unrealistic in animation). I would however like to see a more realistic animation/model used for it (like A2's). If you can tweak A2's sway model to cover the same forgiving/challenging skill/luck balancing points that A3's does currently, I would greatly prefer it. However, I always found A2's sway to be far too forgiving, untied to fatigue, and lacking in an enjoyably high enough skill-based ability to compensate.
that is totally irrelevant. people like you keep jumping from "oh it's for gameplay" and "oh it's realistic" as they please. it's fucking ridiculous. stop flip flopping and either stand behind your nonsensical reality comparisons or accept that anything is totally relativ and as you said aiming with a mouse is totally different.
I have responded to other posters who have picked apart the fatigue system for being "unrealistic", and I have explained they are wrong because, by their own standards (and the armed forces'), it is an overly forgiving fatigue system. The realism has also positively impacted gameplay by forcing more thoughtful tactics and penalizing "run and gun" CoD-style gameplay (which many very vocally disliked, if anyone recalls a year or two back). So it has dual positive values: being "realistic" by any reasonable standard thereof, and being an improvement to the end-result gameplay.

It's not really contradictory to find both important. Some seem to only want one to be important, and only so long as it conforms to their previous desires for the series' gameplay. Whatever, that's their opinion, but when they try to pass off a personal opinion of the gameplay result as a "realism argument", I'm going to call them on it. And if you really truly DO want more CoD-friendly fatigue, it's easily modded out of the game. I regularly play with it heavily tuned down when I want that CoD gameplay (KOTH servers have the option as a class, and BP has it totally off). I also regularly play with it turned to full when I want more realism/milsim gameplay (just about every other scenario I play). That's the nice thing about this series, your community can have its cake and eat it too.

what does the distance you can travel have to do with overdone weapon sway and it being too tied to fatigue?
I don't know, you brought it up (as well as the "overdone" opinion). I was responding to the Marine that the speed:fatigue ratio was not only realistic but forgivingly so, since the non-fatigue-generating speed (tac pace, weapon down) moves the player at a pace that's at least equal to the same fatigue-neutral pace real humans have.

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yea sorry for taking it out of context that much. i was in a bad mood i guess.

you still didn't get my main point though. the problem, even when just using that reasoning as a counter argument against claims of lack of realism, is that you were talking about travelling speed.

i'm pretty sure that every single complaint about fatigue is not related to travelling speed but the sway caused by it. so when you say "but you can travel the distance faster then in real life" it has still nothing to with what is being complained about (the other side being as inprecise aside...i was talking about them too partly). when people bring up SF operators then because they are trying to say that even after 6 hours of travelling they wouldn't suffer from that much sway. maybe they would after a sprint for a much shorter amount of time but currently arma is far from being able to simulate that properly.

so no. it's not realistic. and while it might prevent the feared "run and gun" it also messes up many other situations where it doesn't work well for gameplay nor to depict reality. do you really think people get frustrated with it after doing several hours marches ingame and then looking at their watch thinking "wtf. i should've been here earlier, this is bullshit"?...

and it's not easily modded out of the game. you have two options. either make a config that replaces the entire animation tree or use "_unit enablefatigue false", which let's you sprint infinitely, which sucks, a lot. it would be great if there were separate commands for recovery and increase rate. then it would actually be modular without the need of an addon that no server will run because enablefatigue is more convenient for mission makers that don't use any other addons otherwise.

another thing that could improve the system a lot would be decreasing the amplitude (or whatever) of the sway by maybe even 50%. it's just overdone no matter from what perspective you view it, because it makes it retardly difficult (pls no more videos, i can hit shit but i feel stupid while fighting the guy pulling the string that is attached to my barrel randomly) to even hit very close targets when very fatigued due to the extreme movements, when in reality you could easily hit the target just by pointing in its general direction without even squinting one eye and consciously aiming. these are the kind of details that make it feel forced and cause disconnect.

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