General Discussion (dev branch)

[roberthammer 582]

Guesstimating is how it's dealt with IRL, except when it comes to sniping, but I can see the problem with having the mechanic in game because there's no way to compensate for it when sniping and the majority of players do not understand the IRL mechanic and will probably think the game is broken when their point of impact is where they do not expect it too be. Would be nice if we had a switch in the difficulty options or something, so that we can choose if we want the game to help us or not.

Exactly - next thing that will be dumbed down will be the Bullet drop ,because regular players can't use a reticle ...

[Electricleash 133]

My experience of that issue arrose in the Marksman showcase: firing on a slope facing downhill into the compound, range ~200m zeroed to min 300 (Kir+Khalia) I would fire deployed, prone at the static MG gunner and the bullet would land about 5m to the right of the target. The deployment wasn't canted left or right unless it was barely discernable. Weapon specific dispersion not-with-standing, this appeared to be a bug with firing on slopes, not the real world firing situation you describe above.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

• Fixed: Adjusted minimal zeroing of MOS
  

Any chance this'll be changed back? Or something like Kahila will have its minimum Zero reduced?

Anything with a zero over 200m is completely impractical for the ASP-1 Kir, so after this change there are only two magnified daylight optics in the entire game that it will work reasonably well with: the DMS and Nightstalker in optical mode.

Those are now the only two that can be adjusted below 300m. However, people are reluctant to include the Nightstalker in missions because it's perceived as a bit OP (having a rangefinder and additional NV and TI modes). This means many people will either learn they can only use DMS or have no magnification whatsoever, or simply nobody will choose to use the Kir at all because they think they can't hit a damn thing with it.

An illusion of having choice in optics for a weapon when there is really only one choice doesn't make the new weapon particularly user-friendly or make it seem like a marksman rifle at all if it's almost useless with the vast majority of magnified optics that can be attached to it. One ends up using it more like a heavy-hitting SMG using collimator sights, instead of its intended role.

[razor6014 35]

Guesstimating is how it's dealt with IRL, except when it comes to sniping, but I can see the problem with having the mechanic in game because there's no way to compensate for it when sniping and the majority of players do not understand the IRL mechanic and will probably think the game is broken when their point of impact is where they do not expect it too be. Would be nice if we had a switch in the difficulty options or something, so that we can choose if we want the game to help us or not.

dude i shoot in the wind with a compond and use the bubble in my 6x scope to do it reliably ... and your telling me i guess .. :D no my friend .. i know exactly how left or right it goes ... ok to a precision of an 1/8 of a bubble at best .. but its no guessing

and why does this conception exist that understanding fundementals only impacts snipers ... i agree its not to the same degree when you are below 500 m its smaller and corrections are smaller but heck the most i ever shoot is up to 90 m in competition and i need that IRL and im not gonna waste 10 points / shots on guessing otherwise im gonna lose

Edited April 2, 2015 by Razor6014

[Greenfist 1863]

Would be nice if we had a switch in the difficulty options or something, so that we can choose if we want the game to help us or not.

And how would you level the weapon then? Or would you just stop sniping when you realize the gun isn't leveled?

[roberthammer 582]

Any chance this'll be changed back? Or something like Kahila will have its minimum Zero reduced?

Anything with a zero over 200m is completely impractical for the ASP-1 Kir, so after this change there are only two magnified daylight optics in the entire game that it will work reasonably well with: the DMS and Nightstalker in optical mode.

Those are now the only two that can be adjusted below 300m. However, people are reluctant to include the Nightstalker in missions because it's perceived as a bit OP (having a rangefinder and additional NV and TI modes). This means many people will either learn they can only use DMS or have no magnification whatsoever, or simply nobody will choose to use the Kir at all because they think they can't hit a damn thing with it.

An illusion of having choice in optics for a weapon when there is really only one choice doesn't make the new weapon particularly user-friendly or make it seem like a marksman rifle at all if it's almost useless with the vast majority of magnified optics that can be attached to it. One ends up using it more like a heavy-hitting SMG using collimator sights, instead of its intended role.

I agree , the MOS was the best scope to use with ASP-1 - after this change , MOS is no longer accurate with ASP because of zeroing issues

[R3vo 2654]

[......]but I can see the problem with having the mechanic in game because there's no way to compensate for it when sniping and the majority of players do not understand the IRL mechanic and will probably think the game is broken when their point of impact is where they do not expect it too be. [...]

I can confirm this, some of my community members claimed the scopes were not properly configured.

[CaptainObvious 95]

Whaaaat !? This is not realistic :(

IRL the sight will only have correct zero if the weapon is held 100% horizontally. I believe the game handled that properly before this so called "fix".

I assume this is for consistency's sake, as leaning wasn't affected by this.

I'd prefer it the other way around too, so that you'd have to compensate for it anytime your weapon isn't level.

[fareast 20]

Whaaaat !? This is not realistic :(

IRL the sight will only have correct zero if the weapon is held 100% horizontally. I believe the game handled that properly before this so called "fix".

+1 im angry right now

[Brisse 78]

dude i shoot in the wind with a compond and use the bubble in my 6x scope to do it reliably ... and your telling me i guess .. :D no my friend .. i know exactly how left or right it goes ... ok to a precision of an 1/8 of a bubble at best .. but its no guessing

and why does this conception exist that understanding fundementals only impacts snipers ... i agree its not to the same degree when you are below 500 m its smaller and corrections are smaller but heck the most i ever shoot is up to 90 m in competition and i need that IRL and im not gonna waste 10 points / shots on guessing otherwise im gonna lose

It impacts everyone but the difference is in how it's dealt with. A sniper will probably try to shoot from a position that is 100% horizontal, but if such position is unavailable, their training and equipment enables them to dial in adjustments on their scope to compensate for the effect (sadly we cant do that in the game, and that's the issue regarding snipers). Normal riflemen do not have the training or equipment to do that, and they handle it by guesstimating instead, holding slightly to the side of the target. Also, the effect will be much smaller since a riflemans sights are usually zeroed at about 200m and the effect will therefore be much smaller than if you were shooting with a sight zeroed at 1000m.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Brisse

[razor6014 35]

its not so much that the sights are zeroed for 200 but that for most rifles the arc is so small at 200 m its not noticable ... now if you took the kir you wold get problems

as its the only gun that has a severe ballistic arc

Edited April 2, 2015 by Razor6014

[Brisse 78]

On 200m you might miss by something like 20cm. On 1000m it becomes very significant and you can easily miss by 1 meter. Of course, this all depends on things like zero distance, canting angle and ballistic coefficient. It can be calculated very precisely and compensated for, but as I said, that's only something a sniper would do.

[razor6014 35]

On 200m you might miss by something like 20cm. On 1000m it becomes very significant and you can easily miss by 1 meter. Of course, this all depends on things like zero distance, canting angle and ballistic coefficient. It can be calculated very precisely and compensated for, but as I said, that's only something someone who knows what they're doing would do

Sorry but to me marksmanship and sniping are two separate things :p

[metralla 19]

Hi, could you please create a Feedback Tracker ticket for this issue and attach the mission to that ticket? Thanks :)

The cause of this failure think this in CH67 Helicopter Huron. Clearing the CH67 of the mission, the autonomous vehicle works well. :)

Edit: Do not let me create a new account Feedback Tracker "ARMA 3" :computer::31:

Mission File

http://www.mediafire.com/download/pnlfpkpifdtpqaf/mission.sqm

New Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3moM4X2Pqc4

Edited April 2, 2015 by Metralla

[twisted 128]

Your sight is pointing in a straight line to the point of impact when properly zeroed. The bullet however does not use a straight path so the sight has to point slightly down to compensate for bullet drop. If you tilt your weapon to either side, the axis where the sight is pointing will also tilt to the side, but the gravity will still pull the bullet straight down into the ground so the point of impact will no longer be where your sight is pointing. This was working properly in the game before today's update. With today's update the game has been dumbed down so the game compensates for this error for you, which is unrealistic.

why BIS? why?

skill learned through experience is a thing. please un'fix' this. it takes away from way things actually should work.

Edited April 2, 2015 by twisted

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

why BIS? why?

skill learned through experience is a thing. please un'fix' this. it takes away from way things actually should work.

I agree, this HAS to be fixed. That was more of a feature than a problem. NOW it's a problem.

[Healbeam 10]

The problem is, if they do "un-fix" it, bipods will be entirely useless for snipers (again) because the ground will never be perfectly flat and there's no way for us to compensate for uneven terrain aside from simply not using bipods.

[twisted 128]

The problem is, if they do "un-fix" it, bipods will be entirely useless for snipers (again) because the ground will never be perfectly flat and there's no way for us to compensate for uneven terrain aside from simply not using bipods.

entirely useless? thats gross hyperbole.

i used the bipods a lot and they were just fine beforehand. I play the same game and experienced the same problems. you can find flatter ground, it just takes a little looking for the right place to set up. the ability to extend bipod legs, or posiiton them would be great but not this auto flat.

[das attorney 858]

[DancZer 65]

Your sight is pointing in a straight line to the point of impact when properly zeroed. The bullet however does not use a straight path so the sight has to point slightly down to compensate for bullet drop. If you tilt your weapon to either side, the axis where the sight is pointing will also tilt to the side, but the gravity will still pull the bullet straight down into the ground so the point of impact will no longer be where your sight is pointing. This was working properly in the game before today's update. With today's update the game has been dumbed down so the game compensates for this error for you, which is unrealistic.

I agree that this is the natural behavior of the #bipods. But don't you think that IRL you find easier a place where your weapon is less tilled? I mean, IRL you find some rocks or scrape the ground with foot or hand.

Edited April 3, 2015 by danczer

[razor6014 35]

rocks .. digging , towels , you find a log, in field competition sometimes you loose a whole minute just to dig out a place for your foot so you can stand like you trained.

This look silly to most people when they see this the first time but 6 targets in they are usually 15 to 20 points down if you don't do this.

[DnA 5143]

Whaaaat !? This is not realistic :(

IRL the sight will only have correct zero if the weapon is held 100% horizontally. I believe the game handled that properly before this so called "fix".

The change only affects weapons in Firing From Vehicles positions and weapons that are deployed. It does not affect general zeroing. We know the change is not realistic; it was done to make things more usable for weapons like the Kir. A fully realistic approach for all situations is not feasible here. So the choice is between a discrepancy to real life that would be hard to actually notice, or usability.

[R3vo 2654]

The change only affects weapons in Firing From Vehicles positions and weapons that are deployed. It does not affect general zeroing. We know the change is not realistic; it was done to make things more usable for weapons like the Kir. A fully realistic approach for all situations is not feasible here. So the choice is between a discrepancy to real life that would be hard to actually notice, or usability.

The decision you've made is completely fine. Adding new functionality for proper zeroing when the weapon is not leveled correctly, would only make the game unecessarily difficult, especially for new players. People should finally let their real life expertise at the gun range and accept that this is a game, which cannot, in any way, be realistic in every aspect.

Edited April 3, 2015 by R3vo

[reyhard 2082]

did anyone succeed with implementing magazine groups? seems it's not working for sample weapons too. (tested on 1.42RC)

[roberthammer 582]

Speaking of Kir - it would be better if the Kir had less dispersion like Cyrus has , because in range 300-400m it loses it accuracy due to its high dispersion

normally i would expect the weapon lose its accuracy around 500-600m but not in 300-400m range

Edited April 3, 2015 by RobertHammer