Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[galzohar 31]

I will NEVER understand this. That's just it, the player slows down, that's the indicator. If your slower, just rest a bit. Why do people need to add all sorts of numbers or bars to clog up an already packed HUD? There's even more signs of Fatigue.

Symptoms of Fatiuge

-Character slows down

-Character suffers from heavy breathing, swallowing

-Character suffers from gradual aiming stability loss

-Character starts seeing throbbing red/white blur around screen

Yet people still want a bar? Literally, wtf.

The problem is that, once those symptoms show up, it's already too late to manage your fatigue. If you end up having to engage an enemy just before those symptoms show up, you're screwed and you won't know it until you try to shoot back. The aiming instability is the first effect to be applied, but is not visible until you try to aim.

[h - 169]

In fairness a fatigue coefficient command would be lovely

Ah, coefficient was the word I was looking for there..

In addition to that a set/getFatigueRecoveryRate command would be nice, to control how fast/slow one recovers from fatigue.

[enex 11]

according to sitrep 00114 (arma3/news/sitrep) there is incoming iteration of fatigue system.We should discuss strong points and weakpoints of current system and why and how to improve it.

I agree that fatigue recovery is way too quick and leave room for improvement.

I also remember older poster mentioning anaerobic and aerobic(?) muscles.

There is one thing that I'm missing from old ace for arma2 - blinking eyes ang going unconscius if you pushed yourself too hard.Including stumble animation effected and passing out resulted in thinking twice on how much are you gonna carry.

Edited July 15, 2015 by enex

[Alwarren 2767]

according to sitrep 00114 (arma3/news/sitrep) there is incoming iteration of fatigue system.We should discuss strong points and weakpoints of current system and why and how to improve it.

I agree that fatigue recovery is way too quick and leave room for improvement.

I also remember older poster mentioning anaerobic and aerobic(?) muscles.

There is one thing that I'm missing from old ace for arma2 - blinking eyes ang going unconscius if you pushed yourself too hard.Including stumble animation effected and passing out resulted in thinking twice on how much are you gonna carry.

I don't really think that things should be that complicated. The thing that annoys me the most about the current fatigue system is that the slowdown effect makes the animations go slower. It looks very unnatural to see people run like they are in the opening credits of a Baywatch episode. There really needs to be contextual switching of animation sets. For example, when you are exhausted, you should run/walk differently. Same with being injured. A leg wound will mean you can just stroll leisurely around the battlefield, looking like a retard., instead of limping or something like that.

These might be details, but they are immersion breaking details. Just like the leisure stroll up the hillside.

P.S. good choice of signature :D

[bad benson 1733]

I agree that fatigue recovery is way too quick and leave room for improvement.

can you explain how overall slower recovery would improve the sytem or overall gameplay?

There is one thing that I'm missing from old ace for arma2 - blinking eyes ang going unconscius if you pushed yourself too hard.Including stumble animation effected and passing out resulted in thinking twice on how much are you gonna carry.

please no. blinking eyes? passing out? again. what does that do for gameplay? if you want to limit loadouts so badly do it by mission design or modding load capacities. not with backwards weird exaggerated penalties. or at least keep that stuff for "hyper realism" mods. arma should be arma and ace should be ace. as it has always been. two different things.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

can you explain how overall slower recovery would improve the sytem or overall gameplay?

It really won't. I like the fatigue. I play on hardcore coop. Even with a balanced loadout. You spend 80% of the game sluggish. Thats using( gun down hand by side jog which I hate the look of) fatigue management . Really don't need anymore "play time" resting/managing .

If anything more tweeks to the loadouts bearing on fatigue. playing pvp warfare other day. A uniform, gun 4 clips and still slugging around felt no different to bigger loadouts.

More variation in the animation.

[fabio_chavez 103]

what arma 3 clearly lacks is athlete's foot simulation, in the real world, soldiers are forced to manage the humidity in their boots at all time and if they fail to do so, they get mean fungus infestation in their combat boots. Same goes for wet knickers chafe marks on marches!

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

It really won't. I like the fatigue. I play on hardcore coop. Even with a balanced loadout. You spend 80% of the game sluggish. Thats using( gun down hand by side jog which I hate the look of) fatigue management . Really don't need anymore "play time" resting/managing .

If anything more tweeks to the loadouts bearing on fatigue. playing pvp warfare other day. A uniform, gun 4 clips and still slugging around felt no different to bigger loadouts.

More variation in the animation.

Hardcore coop and you're sluggish 80% of the time?

Uniform, rifle and 4 mags and you're sluggish?

YOU are doing something wrong. Fatigue management as it stands now is fine. What's not fine is the playerbase's understanding of how it functions. I STILL see players sprinting everywhere and then bitching about how they're slow all of a sudden. I play hardcore COOP every week and quite often fill the AR/MG or AAR role which involves carrying a lot of kit and through proper management and understanding of how the system works I only ever go above 25% fatigue levels when I'm in direct CQB contact and dashing from cover to cover. This is to be expected.

I like the suggestion of improved animations for the various stamina state levels though. Would be funny to see the mo-cap for that one.

[rübe 127]

I like the suggestion of improved animations for the various stamina state levels though. Would be funny to see the mo-cap for that one.

^^ Don't forget to add some injury animations (limping and stuff) too, while you guys are at it. :p

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

^^ Don't forget to add some injury animations (limping and stuff) too, while you guys are at it. :p

This, be nice for medics to see better visually that someone Is injured and not just having a stroll midway through the battlefield.

[Alwarren 2767]

^^ Don't forget to add some injury animations (limping and stuff) too, while you guys are at it. :p

Oh yeah... nothing is more immersion breaking than a guy yelling "I'm hit! I'm hit" while casually strolling over open terrain.

[Smurf 12]

Animations just like those present on the official DayZ Alpha Trailer, huh? (read: Recorded and made it's way into some form of RV engine)

[Alwarren 2767]

Okay, I just had an (admittedly) brief look at the new fatigue system, and while there are a number of things I like about it, there is a number of things that I simply find horrible.

First of all, normal jogging doesn't seem to take ANY stamina anymore. Only when you sprint will you lose stamina, and when you cannot sprint anymore and fall back into jogging, you not only do not consume stamina, you also even regenerate it.I do not think that is acceptable. A normal jog should consume stamina. It's arguable how much stamina it should use up, but it should never EVER regenerate it. If this isn't the case, it eliminates the need to take a break from time to time. I am quite sure a number of people will welcome this, but all those that try to play quasi-realistic will agree that taking a break is a tactical element of the game, and the way the new system is implemented surely takes that away.

 

I do like how stamina works while sprinting. Being encumbered will have you start with less stamina to begin with than a light loadout, which is great. But regenerating stamina while jogging? No way.

[twisted 128]

Okay, I just had an (admittedly) brief look at the new fatigue system, and while there are a number of things I like about it, there is a number of things that I simply find horrible.

First of all, normal jogging doesn't seem to take ANY stamina anymore. Only when you sprint will you lose stamina, and when you cannot sprint anymore and fall back into jogging, you not only do not consume stamina, you also even regenerate it.I do not think that is acceptable. A normal jog should consume stamina. It's arguable how much stamina it should use up, but it should never EVER regenerate it. If this isn't the case, it eliminates the need to take a break from time to time. I am quite sure a number of people will welcome this, but all those that try to play quasi-realistic will agree that taking a break is a tactical element of the game, and the way the new system is implemented surely takes that away.

 

I do like how stamina works while sprinting. Being encumbered will have you start with less stamina to begin with than a light loadout, which is great. But regenerating stamina while jogging? No way.

 

agree. fatigue should have tactical implications. if bis want a quasi-reliastitc option then adding a command that enables changes in the way fatigue is consumed or min fatigue would be better. but fatigue has an important role to play to stop people loading up on all the biggest weapons and sprinting around every where like blue arsed flies.

 

 

edit - i do like the settling into stable aim though. very much.

[Greenfist 1863]

It's pretty safe to say that the new system is nowhere near finished. :rolleyes:

I mean, you can currently jog a 30 degree uphill with 50 kg gear indefinitely.

 

edit. I was wrong apparently. The system is reduced to a load-based sprint time and a cooldown period. Just like in CoD.

[solzenicyn 130]

Hi guys,

 

as the recent OPREP unveiled, the Fatigue mechanics undergo a major overhaul largely based upon the community feedback received since the fatigue release. Changes are so substantial, that we've decided to name the new mechanics Stamina to strike a clear difference between the old mechanics and the new. So what does this Copernican revolution means to you in real terms? Paradigm shifts!

 

Probably the most important change is that the basic movement (running) no longer deteriorate over time. While the old fatigue was slowly accumulating and gradually impairing your ability to move by animation slowdown and forced walking, the new Stamina let's you run around freely as it is usual in absolute majority of other games. Despite that we understand this as a sort of step back from the mil sim authenticity, we have also recognized that Arma is a platform for a much wider range of gaming experience, that we should respect one of the most fundamental standards in game industry and, most importantly, not to confuse the vast majority of our players.

 

But fear not, Stamina in not meant to suit just the casual gameplay. Running around like a wild goat will still have detrimental impact on your combat performance. Relationship between the movement and weapon sway was reworked to maintain the important difference between a soldier who kept his pace steady and the one who just run for a mile. Every particular state you are in has it's predefined aiming precision coefficient, multiplying the magnitude of the default sway. The longer you remain in certain state, the more is your actual sway approaching the precision defined for that state. Time needed to reach that value is directly related to your equipment load, so that the more equipment you carry the sooner your weapon sway deteriorate in states bad for precision and slower it is to stabilize back in states with good precision.

 

Overall, the Stamina work as reservoir for Sprinting. Full Stamina bar allows for 60 seconds of Sprinting. However, as carried equipment fills up your Inventory bar, the exact same portion is also reserved from the overall Stamina and thus cannot be used for Sprinting. Whatever remains at your disposal is your Stamina pool. Whenever you exhaust all of your Stamina, you have to recuperate for 15 seconds until you can Sprint again, but Stamina is regenerating during this exhaustion period. The whole Stamina pool always regenerate in 45 seconds from the total exhaustion to the full, regardless of how much Stamina it actually is. Less equipped soldiers can therefore Sprint for longer and will regenerate their Stamina faster than more equipped ones.

 

Bear in mind that not every state other than Sprinting is automatically regenerating Stamina. For example, moving in tactical pace is preventing Stamina regeneration and conserve the current state, whatever it is. This applies to swimming as well. We are still making some minor adjustments in determining which state is regenerating stamina and which does not. Check it out and let us know what do you think about it!

 

Also, you are no longer prevented from equipping more items than the current inventory bar allows for. However, when you do that, you will became encumbered and forced to walk.

 

Stamina bar indicating you current Stamina pool is positioned at the upper right corner, just below the weapon info. It is hidden by default, and is only visible when you are in the inventory or when your Stamina pool is changing or not full. It is red whenever you cannot Sprint. It is also augmented with Terrain and Injury icons that became visible whenever the terrain prevents you from sprinting and / or running.

 

We hope that you will enjoy to play Arma with this new, less restrictive mechanics more than before. As always, I would really appreciate your valuable feedback upon the subject matter. And in case that something will seem to be terribly wrong, please report it so we can fix it ASAP.

 

PS: Functionality of core config parameters is described here. Scripting commands available to you now are:

• getStamina //return current stamina
• enableStamina //on/off switch
• setStamina //set given amount of stamina
• isStaminaEnabled //check whether stamina is in effect
• setAnimSpeedCoef //set animation slowdown
• getAnimSpeedCoef //return current animation slowdown

[fareast 20]

stamina no longer deteriorate during basic running???? haven't tried it yet but i already hate it

[roberthammer 582]

 

new Stamina let's you run around freely as it is usual in absolute majority of other games

 

in other words you can jog indefinitely - because in other games you can do that ...

[Varanon 892]

Probably the most important change is that the basic movement (running) no longer deteriorate over time. While the old fatigue was slowly accumulating and gradually impairing your ability to move by animation slowdown and forced walking, the new Stamina let's you run around freely as it is usual in absolute majority of other games. Despite that we understand this as a sort of step back from the mil sim authenticity, we have also recognized that Arma is a platform for a much wider range of gaming experience, that we should respect one of the most fundamental standards in game industry and, most importantly, not to confuse the vast majority of our players.It is red whenever you cannot Sprint. It is also augmented with Terrain and Injury icons that became visible whenever the terrain prevents you from sprinting and / or running.

 

 

Wait, so your argument is "other games do it like that" ? Are you serious ? Other games don't simulate ballistics, either, are you going to remove that too ? Or remove the editor because other games don't have it ?

 

And you even "admit" it takes away authenticity which was heralded as the big goal of Arma after "realism" became a swear word back in Alpha.

 

"A wider range of gamin experiences" ? In other words, let's water it down.

 

Sorry, I can take any argument, but "other games do it like that" is ridiculous

[Greenfist 1863]

I really liked how you had to be tactical with terrain. But it doesn't matter at all anymore, I might as well run up that steep hill without any effect on my stamina.

 

And how on earth does a heavy backpack increase sway? How is that realistic? You'd supposed to be more stable with heavier gear.

 

I don't understand why there's a fatigue meter now? Many other games don't have it, because everyone knows intuitively that only thing affecting your stamina is your gear load and how much you sprint. It's totally useless now.

 

Can you add a jump button next? Other games have it. Maybe put it in the user action menu?

 

I would have been much happier with just more configurable old system. Like fatigue rates, which things affect it etc.

[Variable 322]

I simply can't believe what I just read. They washed down the fatigue system to a CoD run-and-gun system and they call it an improvement. I feel like I was slapped in the face. 

[Alwarren 2767]

Probably the most important change is that the basic movement (running) no longer deteriorate over time.

Which is in my opinion a major step backwards. Not only is it no longer deteriorating over time, it is actually recovering. It completely eliminates the need for tactical breaks. You can jog half the map and immediately go into combat. You are not penalized for not taking a breather before combat. This is not a feature, it's a severe deficiency, considering the old system did exactly that.

 

While the old fatigue was slowly accumulating and gradually impairing your ability to move by animation slowdown and forced walking, the new Stamina let's you run around freely as it is usual in absolute majority of other games.

It's seriously puzzling me that you would argue this way. The majority of other games are exactly that: A majority of OTHER games. They are not Arma. Arma has always had a higher standard when it comes to realism. The majority of other games do not have proper ballistics either. The majority of other games do not account for magazines but rather have an absolute ammo count and just refill the weapon. Are you going to remove bullet drop and magazines from the game just because it is "usual in the absolutel majority of other games"?

Sorry, I find this highly alarming.

 

Despite that we understand this as a sort of step back from the mil sim authenticity, we have also recognized that Arma is a platform for a much wider range of gaming experience, that we should respect one of the most fundamental standards in game industry and, most importantly, not to confuse the vast majority of our players.

This is also something that bothers me. You are essentially arguing that taking away a feature is a good thing if it equalizes the game with the bulk of other games out there, just because some players might be "confused"? About what? About a mechanism that works exactly like in reality? Why do you think there actually IS a mil sim community using Arma? Because those "fundamental standards in game industry" do not allow for that.

Seriously, I cannot believe what I am reading here. You take features away that make Arma something special, and all the reasoning is "confused players" that do not understand that running makes you tired, and because "other games do it like that"?

 

But fear not, Stamina in not meant to suit just the casual gameplay.

Ugh... yes, that is exactly what it is. You have toned it down to complete and utter uselessness. The so-called "detrimental impact" you describe is hardly worth nothing, easily rectified by going prone.

 

Less equipped soldiers can therefore Sprint for longer and will regenerate their Stamina faster than more equipped ones.

The sprinting mechanic seems fine to me, but that is about all that I can say I like about the new system. Regenerating stamina while jogging is ridiculous.

 

Check it out and let us know what do you think about it!

Well I did. It's horrible. Simply horrible. You had a perfectly working system and exchanged it with something watered down for the casual gamers, while your hardcore fanbase of 15 years gets the boot. That is completely unacceptable. I can understand if you want to appeal to more casual player AS WELL, but then make the whole "endless stamina" thing OPTIONAL.

 

Also, you are no longer prevented from equipping more items than the current inventory bar allows for. However, when you do that, you will became encumbered and forced to walk.

Wait.. what? So I can now put a Hunter worth of stuff in my backpack, and the only thing is that I can no longer run?

 

We hope that you will enjoy to play Arma with this new, less restrictive mechanics more than before.

No. I certainly don't. What kind of argument is this? Removing bullet drop or weapon sway is also less restrictive. Not being able to get shot is less restrictive. That is not a quality seal.

 

As always, I would really appreciate your valuable feedback upon the subject matter. And in case that something will seem to be terribly wrong, please report it so we can fix it ASAP.

There is something terribly wrong here, that's for sure. For a starter, the reasons why you think a new fatigue system was needed is wrong. "Because other games do it" is by far the worst possible reason to do something.

I am not only appalled by the changes themselves, I am even more horrified by the reasoning behind it. You are essentially saying you want to take away things that make Arma Arma because other people have it like that. What's next? Jumping? Other games have that too. Unlocks? Premium Memberships? Shortcut bundles?

Don't get me wrong, I know you are just the messenger and I don't want to give you any grief for this, but I find these changes and especially the reasoning behind it to be utterly alarming.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

[roberthammer 582]

To be honest - BIS should create a CASUAL or a Arcade mode for those people that been whining about previous stamina system

 

and not forcing all A3 players to use this CASUAL mode ... (also what happend to make things optional?)

[Greenfist 1863]

The old system was a groundbreaking innovation in the whole genre, and generally a bold move in my opinion. I really loved it after a few first iterations.
And just because no other game had the balls to replicate it, and it was somewhat confusing for some (really really) new players, you decided to scrap it completely?  :391:

 

To be honest - BIS should create a CASUAL or a Arcade mode for those people that been whining about previous stamina system
and not forcing all A3 players to use this CASUAL mode ... (also what happend to make things optional?)

It was optional! _lifePlayer enableFatigue false