Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[froggyluv 2130]

^^^ LOl you are absolutely correct, those are the proper recovery methods to best 'get your breath back' but would probably be a bit much for a computer game. Imagine soldiers walking around with hands on hip animations with one finger held up to tell the player to "hold on a sec!".

[ceeeb 147]

The intent was to get BI to think about reducing the fatigue rate recovery while prone, and increase it while standing or crouching, not add new out of breath animations :P

Punishing going prone would also force the player to weigh up improved recovery vs the increased risk of being seen/shot while crouching/standing.

[Tyl3r99 41]

i still think there is too much fatigue, all my teams just slow to a snail pace after 2 mins... i know its realistic but takes the fun out of it when you have to stop all of your team every 2 mins lol

[toysoldier 35]

The fatigue now is great, just increase the restoration speed for 10% faster and fatigue would perfect.

[St. Jimmy 272]

The fatigue now is great, just increase the restoration speed for 10% faster and fatigue would perfect.

It's freaking fast already.

[TSAndrey 1]

It's freaking fast already.

Haha, no it's not.

[dnk 13]

Haha, no it's not.

I'm sure you can go sprint with 40kg of crap on your back for 250m and show us how you can get back to 100% stamina in 10 seconds just by laying down. Then go sprint another 250m, do it a few times. It's good exercise.

I'm eagerly awaiting the video. Eagerly.

[St. Jimmy 272]

Haha, no it's not.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?168240-Fatigue-Feedback-%28dev-branch%29&p=2785979&viewfull=1#post2785979

Light Guerrilla kit with enough ammo and nades if you're prone. From 100% fatigued to fully rested 30s. From 60% fatigued, which is when the vignette kicks in, to 0% 18s

Arma 3 rifleman kit if you're prone. From 100% fatigued to fully rested 36s. From 60% fatigued to 0% 21s.

Max load if you're prone. From 100% fatigued to fully rested 50s. From 60% fatigued to 0% 30s.

[fn_Quiksilver 1633]

EDIT: looks like someone else has already pointed out the below :)

I'd like to point out that 60% fatigue is the max physical effect. So in terms of actually noticing the effects, it is a range of 0-60 or 0-0.6. Above 60% (0.6) there is no noticeable effect, and only serves to prolong the recovery time.

Perhaps as a way for BIS to tweak it in the future, I would suggest spread the curve out to 80% (0.8) before max fatigue effect kicks in.

Also I have found if there is resistance to adding fatigue at lower levels (IE at 20% fatigue you add more fatigue at slower rate, than if you were at 45% fatigue), it produces more desirable gameplay results. Also I slow down the rate of fatigue decay, depending on their fatigue level. Higher fatigue = slower decay. This acts as sort of punishment for overexertion, with a reward for the soldiers who pace themselves.

I implemented such a system and found that players were still doing things to manage their fatigue (IE choosing not to sprint, resting sometimes, assault pack instead of Carryall), but there were much much less complaints about the fatigue system. Dare I say, they enjoyed it. :)

On the other hand ... I implore BIS to always consider realistic/realism as high priority and not to cave in to making nice 'good for gameplay' stuff. :)

Edited January 5, 2015 by MDCCLXXVI

[DancZer 65]

In reality, you should not go above 50% of fatigue. Your aiming, speed is decreasing too much. If you do that, you louse your combat awareness.

We tested it before with my friend. I jogged, he sprinted. We go almost the same distance in the same time(i count here the recovery to fatigue 0%). Difference was the combat awareness during the trip. He had very high fatigue and can't aim. I was slower, but i was able to aim better and i was able to sprint if i want(on danger).

I think that if you play in urban area (when you go from cover to cover with a team) the recovery is good.

If you play in open world, then you don't have to be in combat stance(weapon up) all the time. With lowered weapon you can jog for a long. In reality soldiers are walking if they move huge distances. Because it is safer! You can walk anywhere without fatigue increase.

All in one:

The fatigue is designed/calibrated for missions where you play soldiers(COOP, single respawn, escape from altis).

It isn't for GTA or COD style fast respawn/action mission.

Edited January 5, 2015 by danczer

[bigpickle 0]

I'm sure you can go sprint with 40kg of crap on your back for 250m and show us how you can get back to 100% stamina in 10 seconds just by laying down. Then go sprint another 250m, do it a few times. It's good exercise.

I'm eagerly awaiting the video. Eagerly.

So you want bis to add sleeping, pissing and shitting to the game too just because its realistic? This is a game and fun balance should be the first and only focus.

[-Coulum- 35]

So you want bis to add sleeping, pissing and shitting to the game too just because its realistic? This is a game and fun balance should be the first and only focus.

Well if there was nothing better for the devs to work on, I wouldn't mind it. Aside from shitting, other games do feature things like sleeping and eating. But no, it is not really important as it is far outside the scope of arma. Fatigue on the other hand is well within arma's "infantry centric" focus.

I understand that a more realistic system may not be as fun for you. But some people find that realism is fun. For many that's the reason they got into the arma series in the first place. I think BI is giving a fair balance between realism and playability right now.

[gibonez 18]

The fatigue now is great, just increase the restoration speed for 10% faster and fatigue would perfect.

It is entirely too fast already especially when prone they need to slow it down a bit.

[bigpickle 0]

Well if there was nothing better for the devs to work on, I wouldn't mind it. Aside from shitting, other games do feature things like sleeping and eating. But no, it is not really important as it is far outside the scope of arma. Fatigue on the other hand is well within arma's "infantry centric" focus.

I understand that a more realistic system may not be as fun for you. But some people find that realism is fun. For many that's the reason they got into the arma series in the first place. I think BI is giving a fair balance between realism and playability right now.

I find realisim entirely fun, I wouldnt have been a player since OFP days but the current implementation is lacks imagination to make it fun, another factor to take into account is whats realistic for RPG arma is different for Battle Sim arma, its impossible to create a fatigue system that supports 2 different genres of game and incidentally this whole deal is new to the Arma series coming into being with this game.

Weapon sway is the real grinder for me though, it is just rediculous and unrealistic. Any shouldered weapon no matter how tired you are will not do great sweeping figure of eights, the reticle going almost to the very far edges of your sight, again it lacks imagination and doesnt take into account the abilities of a trained solider then balancing with the fun factor.

Weapon sway is the one thing that unanimously everyone I speak to says is the reason they dont play Arma 3, I used to be part of several big groups that played arma series over the last 10 years, sadly when arma 3 came out no one wanted to play because of the weapon sway and some of the groups eventaully dwindle because of the lack of players. :(

Edited January 27, 2015 by Bigpickle

[roshnak 41]

Weapon sway is the one thing that unanimously everyone I speak to says is the reason they dont play Arma 3, I used to be part of several big groups that played arma series over the last 10 years, sadly when arma 3 came out no one wanted to play because of the weapon sway and some of the groups eventaully dwindle because of the lack of players. :(

So, I've asked this before (I believe in the weapon sway thread) and I don't think you ever answered:

Why didn't the people that you're talking about want to play Arma 3 for the year that it was out when it had Arma 2's weapon sway mechanics?

You can answer this in the weapon sway thread if you don't to derail this one.

Edit: On topic:

So you want bis to add sleeping, pissing and shitting to the game too just because its realistic? This is a game and fun balance should be the first and only focus.

I assume that BIS was trying to make the game more fun and balanced (in their opinions) by creating a greater sense of diversity and choice (equipment loadouts, use of ground transport vehicles, etc.) through the addition of a more realistic (according to some) and punishing fatigue system. I doubt that they changed the fatigue system just for the sake of realism.

Of course, fun is subjective.

Edited January 27, 2015 by roshnak

[eggbeast 3673]

there are too many freakin poor opinions here pickle! it's a chinese parliament of civilians who know nothing, i wouldn't waste your breath.

i'm en ex marine reservist, pickle served in iraq, lots of us who play together (A2 i might add) are in forces in scandinavia, served in us airborne, uk tank regiments, etc etc.

re fatigue

we all know from personal experience that a trained soldier can run 40 miles with a battle load inc camelback, and rifle and mortar plate/mgammo/radio/log/giant rope/ or w/e platoon deigns to give you to carry on top of your kit. we do it by speed marching - walk, run, walk, run and can fight effectively at any time on that run, or after the 40 miles (assuming we have some water! esp in arid conditions). in training, as i've said before on this forum, we were trained to carry the guy next to us on our shoulder for up to 200 yards, with our own kit and rifle. this involved wading rivers, sprinting through thorn bushes, slogging through thick peaty mires, etc all after days of no sleep and cold rations. it's part of the freakin job, and one of the things you feel proud to have done, looking back.

re weapon sway

anyone civ or soldier (like some of us in the team who are expert civilian gunsmiths) can aim ANY weapon and hit a man at 200m square in the chest even if we had been sprinting for 400m before...it might take a few secs to calm your breath, but as you need to hold it slightly when you fire, so long as you can, it doesn't matter that your next breath might be a big gaspy one... the point is you can still train your weapon, aim, breathe in, exhale, hold, fire... in the space of a few seconds.

the adrenaline and "battle joy" soldiers speak of (i didn't serve in the front line but many of the guys i know have) gives you a hell of a kick, and you can sustain a running fight for a long time.

so what does mess you up?

the adrenaline from being in a fight will kill your fatigue some time after the fight starts. fighting for a long time (the way for example the taliban like to work, switching positions, harassing fire, ambush and repeat ambush) can really grind a unit down. in many arma fights its one gang against another, and in that kind of square-go, any trained unit can nail and outmanoeuver the enemy pretty fast. or withdraw, depending on RoE/orders.

being under incoming fore can make you shake, but it can also give you a steely resolve to get the guy firing at you. a bit of randomness in fatigue would be good.

conclusions:

basing fatigue on weight carried and distance run is civlian crap.

basing it on time under fire, time firing, and wounds sustained is a far better approach for realism.

[Greenfist 1863]

re fatigue

we all know from personal experience that a trained soldier can run 40 miles with a battle load inc camelback, and rifle and mortar plate/mgammo/radio/log/giant rope/ or w/e platoon deigns to give you to carry on top of your kit. we do it by speed marching - walk, run, walk, run and can fight effectively at any time on that run, or after the 40 miles (assuming we have some water! esp in arid conditions). in training, as i've said before on this forum, we were trained to carry the guy next to us on our shoulder for up to 200 yards, with our own kit and rifle. this involved wading rivers, sprinting through thorn bushes, slogging through thick peaty mires, etc all after days of no sleep and cold rations. it's part of the freakin job, and one of the things you feel proud to have done, looking back.

How long does the 40 miles take in optimal conditions? Is it anywhere near the Arma's 7 hours?

[eggbeast 3673]

7 hours is about right for the commando test, i think it's 7.5hrs for troopers and 7 hours for officers. might be wrong was a long time ago. first time i ever marched 45 miles took me 20 hours (as a venture scout with an inexperienced team). second time took me 14 hours (with a much better team). once i joined up i could do it in 8.

in standard a2 dayZ i worked out you could run across the map at 1500m every 5 mins (good for planning rendezvous etc).

it would therefore take you an hour to run 12x1.5 = 18km or 12 miles.

running at 12 miles an hour is not really feasible unless you're a trained ethiopian marathon runner.

we used to do 9 miles in 1.5 hours speed marching carrying guys and packs and rifles. that's 6 miles an hour - half the speed of arma standard.

if you want to limit what people carry you should limit the capacity of their packs, and make the ammo (rockets, 200 round x 7.62 etc) take up large spaces in the pack, NOT make the guy stagger about and fall over after running a simple distance like 3-4 miles with a heavy pack.

and as for weapon sway, that's just fecked. take a bipod weapon lie down, (no exercise), aim down scope... sway... wtf... lol

A3 remains unplayable for me until that shite gets sorted out

[Defunkt 431]

anyone civ or soldier (like some of us in the team who are expert civilian gunsmiths) can aim ANY weapon and hit a man at 200m square in the chest even if we had been sprinting for 400m before...it might take a few secs to calm your breath, but as you need to hold it slightly when you fire, so long as you can, it doesn't matter that your next breath might be a big gaspy one... the point is you can still train your weapon, aim, breathe in, exhale, hold, fire... in the space of a few seconds.

Sounds exactly like it plays in-game. As long as you use the hold breath function sway is perfectly manageable even when fatigued.

[eggbeast 3673]

you miss the point. ine the game the weapon sways all over the place even if youre lying prone with a bipod and unexercised. you should not need to hold your breath to aim well like that.

Edited January 27, 2015 by eggbeast

[Greenfist 1863]

you miss the point. the weapon sways all over the place even if youre lying prone with a bipod and unexercised. you should not need to hold your breath to aim well like that.

That's a bit confusing. Are you saying that in real life the gun sways all over the place or anyone can hit a target at 200m after running? :confused:

edit. saw your edit, got it now. There's no bipods in the game by the way.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Greenfist

[SilentSpike 84]

basing fatigue on weight carried and distance run is civlian crap.

So basic physics is civilian crap?

basing it on time under fire, time firing, and wounds sustained is a far better approach for realism.

<snip>

Edit: Now that I think about it, this thread should really be called stamina feedback because that's really what the feature is. My understanding is that fatigue is not the same as stamina, though they're both the result of physical exertion (though fatigue is also caused by mental exertion too). So yeah, coming under fire and stuff certainly contributes to "fatigue".

Edited January 27, 2015 by SilentSpike

[eggbeast 3673]

you certainly need stamina to deal with pedantic, argumentative, pointless people.

[maddogx 13]

you certainly need stamina to deal with pedantic, argumentative, pointless people.

Patience and civility are also helpful.

[bigpickle 0]

This forum gets my goat sometimes, people can be openly rude and abusive and nothing happens, one passive comment and its infraction time. Seems a little heavy handed, far be it from me to critisize because that will get me an infraction.