General Discussion (dev branch)

[pr9inichek 133]

Devs team big tanks for update 

 

Some suggestions and bugs:

 

1) Please add ability for attach IR Laser Pointer for MAAWS Mk4 Mod how is it done for Titans

Spoiler

2)

 

3) MAAWS Ammo (MRAWS_HEAT_F and MRAWS_HE_F) have too much initSpeed (350).

In my opinion this value increase missile flight distance (about 5 600 meters).

Please decrease this for value 1 000 - 1 100 meters (max range for optic).

 

 

4) Ammo for RPG-42 have some unrealistic effect.

Please decrease missile flight distance for 600-700 meters

 

 

5) Hex colour for Repair Depot

6) Crew Helmet for Angara Crew

Spoiler

 

[scavenjer 112]

I'd just like to point out that modern MBTs have/are planned to have APS systems fitted that alert the crew of any incoming missile/rocket or projectile big enough to be detected.

However, most MBTs in service already have missile warning systems that can detect laser guided munitions or other similar forms of guidance.

 

Personally I think this is very much needed for MBTs, I know it's an unpopular opinion but tanks currently are quite weak especially to things such as attack helicopters and jets (too weak).

I don't want them to be "rolling pillboxes" but they should have systems that allow smarter play and give the crew a chance against any type of oponent, currently that's simply not the case.

[wattywatts 76]

2 hours ago, SuicideKing said:

hmm? locking will alert the crew? but isn't it an passive IR seeker?

 

I see - it's not the locking itself, it's the incoming missile warning system, similar as in jets or helos.

 

3 hours ago, Ex3B said:

I know what we're seeing so far is a work in progress, and not final, but I fear some things that are lacking will stay lacking...

 

Some of it might get into release, but no promises.

 

3 hours ago, Ex3B said:

Only 1 Nyx can be loaded in a blackfish, but it seems like 2 should fit, could this be tweaked?

@wattywatts also, did you see this? it seems like something that should have been fixed a long time ago, it shouldn't be too hard to slip in this change of a 1 to a 0 in the next build, no?

 

Noted.

 

59 minutes ago, pr9inichek said:

Some suggestions and bugs:

 

Noted.

The depot reskin (and all possible reskins of everything) is nice-to-have, but - since data lock is nearby - is very unlikely.

For the helmet - the plan is to give it to all CSAT crewmen, replacing the current one (which would be available in Virtual Arsenal).

[lexx 1363]

Huh, why would all CSAT tank crew people wear the non-high-techy caps when all of their normal soldiers wear high-tech helmets? Especially in combination with their default recon fatigues it looks a bit... unfitting?

[wattywatts 76]

31 minutes ago, lexx said:

Huh, why would all CSAT tank crew people wear the non-high-techy caps when all of their normal soldiers wear high-tech helmets? Especially in combination with their default recon fatigues it looks a bit... unfitting?

 

True, but the current helmet is a reskin of the NATO's and since there is a new helmet available, it needs to be used somewhere. We can try different approach though.

[M. Glade 524]

5 minutes ago, wattywatts said:

 

True, but the current helmet is a reskin of the NATO's and since there is a new helmet available, it needs to be used somewhere. We can try different approach though.

 

Please get a new helmet for AAF. Even if its just a slight modification, its not very aesthetically pleasing to be using an ArmA 2 port. 

[Strike_NOR 898]

17 hours ago, Ex3B said:

Only 1 Nyx can be loaded in a blackfish, but it seems like 2 should fit, could this be tweaked?  *see images

 

Yeah they fit. AFAIK two Nyx tanks would weigh about 6-7 tons total, contrary to a singular AMV-7 Marshall that weighs at least 16 tons - so there shouldn't be any conflict with the Blackfish Maximum Takeoff Weight. Would be cool to airdrop two of those badboys into action :)

 

@wattywatts

 

Again, thanks for entering discussion and sharing some of your thoughts. The idea of top-attack is indeed true, most modern combat vehicles sacrifice top armor thickness to save weight, and distribute that weight to the front and sides where they are most likely to be attacked from. The top-attack missiles exploit this, and as you say: you need a lot smaller shaped charge in order to punch through the ceiling, than if hitting from the sides. The Vorona (Metis-M copy) has a very capable tandem HEAT setup, that allegedly can penetrate about 800-950mm of RHA, I could not find any info on the Titan AT, because it seems the real-life counterpart is the "Mini-Spike" personal guided missile launcher that was discontinued in 2016. As far as I can tell, the mini-spike was only intended for Anti-Personnel and entrenched enemy infantry (entire missile weighs 4 kg). However, its bigger brother, the Spike ATGM (13kg), has a tandem HEAT setup, probably similar to that of the Metis-M1 (13.8kg). 

 

Okay, details details. My point about "is the Titan AT loadout overpowered" is now void. The Mini-Spike is so light, the gunner could carry two spare missiles, and the ammo assistant could carry another 4.

 

Now for damage potential, and game balance:

Let's pretend the Titan-AT has a singular HEAT warhead equivalent to that of a good old RPG-7VL (2.6kg rocket). That should give comparable results to the RPG-7VL penetration, which is about 500mm RHA.

First of all: This missile is now useless against ERA. If the Titan AT happens to hit ERA, then it's like flinging peanuts at an elephant. However, if you hit something in Direct attack mode, well then the armor has to be <500mm RHA equivalent in order to penetrate - give or take angle of impact and effective armor thickness etc.

 

In other words, you HAVE to hit something weak, and unprotected by ERA in order to successfully penetrate and inflict damage. Ok great! That's good.

 

As of now, all HEAT weapons except the PCML use splash-damage to mimic HEAT behavior, but it's far from realistic. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I hope you find a way to implement the shaped charge jet in form of a submunition "projectile". This submunition projectile will always spawn with top speed (penetration capability) regardless of distance from shooter to target. An APFSDS round on the other hand will always lose Kinetic Energy, and therefore lose penetration with range. The HEAT does not. I realize it doesn't matter if you use indirectHit splashdamage or a submunition projectile in terms of range to target (the indirectHit will still do full damage regardless of shot velocity?), but the stuff that goes on AFTER impact is what is drastically different. 

Right now, if the Titan-AT uses indirectHit damage, it will wreck all kinds of stuff nearby the surface of the vehicle, dealing some factor damage to crew and vehicle global health.

However, if you manage to pull off a shaped charge jet simulation, then the missile "turns into a projectile shot" at the very last moment. This projectile has the potential to penetrate, or not (causing zero damage if it stops). If it does penetrate it will travel through the vehicle (like a real shaped charge jet) and hit individual firegeometry (modules) and crew (taking out perhaps 1 member, instead of equally damaging everyone a little). It would make the whole experience feel more realistic, and also balance it against other weapon types.

 

The MAAWS 84mm tandem HEAT round should be able to punch through at least 500mm RHA, but defeat ERA in the same shot. This makes it a better weapon than the RPG-7 with single heat warhead. However, it can not reach the top of the turret like the Mini-Spike can, so it is weaker in terms of fighting main battle tanks.

 

The Vorona uses a powerful Tandem HEAT round that can trigger ERA and then punch through 950mm RHA, making it lethal against any MBT, even with ERA panels equipped. If you had shaped charge jet simulations with this weapon, it would be extremely deadly as you could carefully "snipe" the crew or vital modules with the manually guided missile. It would balance itself by having to always guide it (expose yourself) and not be able to carry much ammo for it.

 

The PCML uses a downward facing HEAT charge that is set to detonate above the target in Overfly Top-Attack mode (As it already does perfectly in ArmA3 - this one is epic). It then punches through unprotected armor in the thinnest parts (top) and can strike individual modules and crew inside the tank. This weapon is currently the best representation you have of HEAT in ArmA3. Period. If the rest would only follow with the same submunition mechanic, oh I would be so happy!

 

Basically it comes down to the following:

 

Titan AP should be potent against infantry and unarmored vehicles.

Titan AT should be potent against infantry (close range), unarmored vehicles, AFV/APCs, IFV's (weak spots) and Tanks. ERA panels will defeat this missile in any situation.

Vorona should be the omnipotent juggernaut that can deal with the heaviest of the heaviest. Stationary targets beware, this is a true tank sniper. (Defeats MBT armor on perpendicular angles - slightly weakened by ERA).

PCML should be "as is" pretty much. Maybe consider how much damage the shaped charge does once the rest of the weapons are balanced. Oh, and technically speaking it should have 0 armor penetrating capabilities in Direct Attack mode.

RPG-7 should be equivalent to Titan AT in terms of pen, but absolutely useless against SLAT armor. Could use additional rocket types such as the 40mm HE variant (OG-7V) for infantry/unarmored vehicles and the PG-7VR (tandem HEAT) to deal with ERA equipped tanks). Should be effective against MBT's without ERA, and slightly weakened when ERA is present.)

MAAWS should be about as effective as RPG-7, but easier to use (optics - laser rangefinder). "The gentleman's RPG-7". Also a wide variety of ammunition available for the real thing.

 

Ranked by lethality (according to my guesstimations - most lethal at top) :

 

1. CSAT access to an "infantry variant" of the Rhino TD. The Vorona.
2. All factions enjoy the Titan missile system.
3. NATO and AAF have the NLAW which has guidance and top-down attack.
4. NATO and AAF enjoy the MAAWS - while the CSAT enjoy the RPG-42. Both sport the HE and Tandem HEAT rounds. AAF use simple optics (mod 0) so slight accuracy disadvantage there.
5. RPG-7 currently sported by Syndikat. Only has 1 warhead (PG-7VM that actually has ~300 mm RHA pen).

Just by these observations, we have various uses and applications. Seemingly balanced.

 

Of course, this doesn't take into consideration the vehicle mounted weapons and mines that also sport HEAT warheads. A macer (Maverick ATGM) has a considerably larger HEAT warhead and should be able to defeat almost anything with 1 shot. Same goes for the Scalpel (Hellfire) and other equivalent types. 

 

Anyways, post reaching critical size. Very curious about what will be done to the damage mechanics before finalizing the DLC. Very curious to what can be done post-DLC too :)

 

Very happy none the less. Looks like it is shaping up to be a great DLC. This HEAT "emulation" with indirectHit is just one of my pet peeves. Hence I am campaigning pretty strongly to improve that mechanic :) Good luck finalizing DLC :)

Edited March 12, 2018 by Strike_NOR
Typo, wrong details

[lexx 1363]

PS: Being a commander in a tank, giving move orders somewhere, then switching to a UAV... still stops your tank. This bug is in for a year(?) now. Really annoying, because using tanks in combination with drones is a really fancy thing... in theory. It gives you a much better overview, it's just cool.... but nope, can't have your ai driver move to any position when operating a UAV. :/

 

Honestly, the Nyx is my absolute fav+ of this DLC (which is funny, considering my first impression was ehhh..), and to me it seems natural to combine its functions with UAVs of any kind.

[nkenny 1057]

I really enjoy the new vehicle mounted weapons.  If the models are currently in the development stream it would be hot to see static turret versions of some of these weapon.  As a scenario designer the ultra modern, sensored .50 Cal and 20mm static weapons are rarely approriate.

-k

[jone_kone 158]

20 minutes ago, nkenny said:

I really enjoy the new vehicle mounted weapons.  If the models are currently in the development stream it would be hot to see static turret versions of some of these weapon.  As a scenario designer the ultra modern, sensored .50 Cal and 20mm static weapons are rarely approriate.

-k

 

+1 This... a M2/Kord "low tech" static has been missing since the beginnig.

[nkenny 1057]

Indeed. Actually, the lack of Navid or SPMG static/tripod with the marksman DLC is one of the oddest omission.

 

-k

[Beagle 684]

8 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

ive never had much luck with tank countermeasures. they deploy way too slow to break missile lock

Tank countermesure never broke missile lock, nor did they prevent a new lock on... I tested and reported that months ago.

[Strike_NOR 898]

Okay. Having spent the last couple of hours testing the following HEAT weapons in ArmA3:

 

• PCML (shot shell/projectile mechanic)
• MAAWS (indirectHit)
• RPG-42 (indirectHit)
• RPG-7 (indirectHit)
• Vorona (indirectHit)

 

I have come to the conclusion that I have to make a dedicated thread for this. It is taking up too much space in the general discussion topic, and tbh if the devs are going to fix this, they better discuss the damage calculation system in a dedicated thread. I have to prepare that thread (not today) as I have to filter through a bunch of screenshots and raw data capture in order to present something that is easy to understand and sensible to use as data towards "fixing" the damage mechanics in ArmA 3.

 

As for the recent tests with HEAT listed above^^:

 

Varsuk target, RH side ERA panels cancel ALL of the attacks from indirectHit type weapons were canceled out completely (0 damage). The PCML punches through in Direct Attack (unrealistic - because warhead should face down, not forwards).

 

The rest of the attacks deal full damage potential, RPG lowest at ~.10 damage - Vorona highest at ~.32 damage REGARDLESS of impact angle or area. If they hit, they deal full damage to hull.

 

The PCML is the only missile that gives variable results with different angles and hit locations, because it fires a projectile.

Alas, this projectile suffers the same discrepancies as the rest of the armor piercing projectiles in ArmA. Sometimes they deal full damage on impact (no penetration), and other times they pass through the crew compartment without hurting anything. 

 

I will post a new thread for this issue when I have the time.

 

Out

 

[pr9inichek 133]

@Asheara Can you give us this tool for find more errors?

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

+1 for more static weapons objects would be lovely if time/resources permits.  Particularly that lovely SPG-9.

[lex__1 422]

2 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

The PCML punches through in Direct Attack (unrealistic - because warhead should face down, not forwards).

PCML (NLAW) is used:
Direct attack - for non-armored vehicles or defeat of the enemy inside buildings.
Upper attack - for armored / unarmored vehicles.

In the attack from above, the rocket explodes above the target, does not touch the target.

 

 

 

[deltagamer 612]

I noticed there is a few inconsistencies with most tanks when it comes to ffv. Some vehicle gunner/commanders will have the option to use ffv whilst turned out while others will not have this option. Is it possible for all tanks that have a clear position for a player to turn out and use ffv to support that feature as some tanks currently lack that ability. Especially vehicles like the nyx that would go great with a commander ffv position. I'll create a ticket on the tracker when I get the chance with a list of vehicles that don't have ffv. 

[NikkoJT 58]

15 minutes ago, deltagamer said:

I noticed there is a few inconsistencies with most tanks when it comes to ffv. Some vehicle gunner/commanders will have the option to use ffv whilst turned out while others will not have this option. Is it possible for all tanks that have a clear position for a player to turn out and use ffv to support that feature as some tanks currently lack that ability. Especially vehicles like the nyx that would go great with a commander ffv position. I'll create a ticket on the tracker when I get the chance with a list of vehicles that don't have ffv. 

One of the devs mentioned recently (in one of the dev branch stickies, but man I ain't goin' back to find it) that the Tanks DLC vehicles will have FFV for turned-out positions, but in the current build there's an issue with it that allows people to bypass DLC restrictions, so it's disabled.

[deltagamer 612]

5 minutes ago, NikkoJT said:

One of the devs mentioned recently (in one of the dev branch stickies, but man I ain't goin' back to find it) that the Tanks DLC vehicles will have FFV for turned-out positions, but in the current build there's an issue with it that allows people to bypass DLC restrictions, so it's disabled.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Afaik there is still a few vanilla vehicles that are lacking ffv so it might still be worth me posting those vehicles. Off the top of my head I can't remember what ones but I'll have a test later and see what I can find. 

[Strike_NOR 898]

6 hours ago, lex__1 said:

Direct attack - for non-armored vehicles or defeat of the enemy inside buildings.

 

Yes. What I meant is that in ArmA3 the PCML currently fires its HEAT shaped charge forwards through a tank in Direct Attack mode, giving it AP capability in both OTA and DA mode. Realistically it should work by impact fuse and only cause HE damage in DA mode, and be lethal against tanks in OTA mode.

 

A 'simple way' would be to either:

-Script the PCML so that when fired in DA mode, it fires the shaped charge directly downwards (into the ground).

-Script the weapon so that when DA is selected, it actually swaps the missile type to a impact HE weapon.

 

Not sure how they have programmed the two different flight paths in game, but I would not be surprised if they had two different classes "PCML_DA" and "PCML_OTA" that are chosen based on fire mode. If that is the case, they can simply reconfigure the DA version to explode on impact without submunition being generated. :)

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

The Zamak MRLS doesn't appear to be applying damage to the various components.  Shooting the glass does not break it (vehicle blows up first) and attempting to shoot out its tyres does nothing.

[Asheara 214]

9 hours ago, pr9inichek said:

@Asheara Can you give us this tool for find more errors?

 

Now now, which one? :D

There's plenty of tools in there. Either way, all of this is kind of outside of my power and for sure we can't release everything, but some of these you can find in diag exe :) That should have at least limited functionality of this with several diagnostics :)

[reyhard 2082]

2 hours ago, Imperator[TFD] said:

The Zamak MRLS doesn't appear to be applying damage to the various components.  Shooting the glass does not break it (vehicle blows up first) and attempting to shoot out its tyres does nothing.

Hm, seems to work fine on my end - are you using some mods perhaps?

[pr9inichek 133]

41 minutes ago, Asheara said:

 

Now now, which one? :D

There's plenty of tools in there. Either way, all of this is kind of outside of my power and for sure we can't release everything, but some of these you can find in diag exe :) That should have at least limited functionality of this with several diagnostics :)

This 

 

 

In now diag_drawMode "Paths" or another has no effect
https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/diag_drawMode

 

 

@.kju "Currently A3 dev branch, diag.exe has no drawModes available:diag_list "drawMode" -> []"

 

We tried to show that the command do not work, but this did not change anything.

 

May be u know some guys who worked on this tools

[oukej 2910]

4 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

What I meant is that in ArmA3 the PCML currently fires its HEAT shaped charge forwards through a tank in Direct Attack mode, giving it AP capability in both OTA and DA mode. Realistically it should work by impact fuse and only cause HE damage in DA mode, and be lethal against tanks in OTA mode.

I'm sorry, but as it is now, it's not possible to change submunition behavior based on the selected weapon mode / flight profile :(