Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

PvP POV detected :).

Well You detect wrong friendo. My POV is from someone who has played arma since ofp.... All game modes... And more so co op.

My suggestions are to benifit the core game not one particular game mode.. to make an optional hardcore mode that would make it an actual simulator. Since they're working on the fatigue making it more simulator.

[John Kozak 14]

PvP POV detected :).

Quite not so, his point applies very well to all kind of public coop missions

[seba1976 98]

People love about arma is the difficulty. [...] They're working on the fatigue making it more simulator.

They're screwing the game up, based on feedback from a small portion of the player base. That's what they're doing, if you ask me. What they should be doing, which is a complete update of the AI (since it's basically the same from OFP, with the last important change in OA 1.60), is not even in their roadmap. So you're coop, OK, me too, but I'm also SP 60% of my time with the game. Have you tried commanding the AI in A3 lately? Or trying to make them do things through scripting? BIS is not working in the AI department because people have been shifting to some form of MP. And because it's where the most hard work would be, to fix the AI they should really need to dedicate too much resources to the game. It's ten times easier to release a new fatigue system, or a dress you character mini game, than to recode the AI (or at least update it so it could be commanded again in the new engine). I see a lot of marketing guys from BIS lately (the Twitter channel is spam for 15 yo right now), and a sistematic allocation of productive resources toward the easier things that they can work on.

I'm just hoping to see, a more generalized discontent, when the new fatigue and sway system hit the stable branch. It's gonna be a turning point, one way or the other.

[Bouben 3]

They're screwing the game up, based on feedback from a small portion of the player base. That's what they're doing, if you ask me. What they should be doing, which is a complete update of the AI (since it's basically the same from OFP, with the last important change in OA 1.60), is not even in their roadmap. So you're coop, OK, me too, but I'm also SP 60% of my time with the game. Have you tried commanding the AI in A3 lately? Or trying to make them do things through scripting? BIS is not working in the AI department because people have been shifting to some form of MP. And because it's where the most hard work would be, to fix the AI they should really need to dedicate too much resources to the game. It's ten times easier to release a new fatigue system, or a dress you character mini game, than to recode the AI (or at least update it so it could be commanded again in the new engine). I see a lot of marketing guys from BIS lately (the Twitter channel is spam for 15 yo right now), and a sistematic allocation of productive resources toward the easier things that they can work on.

I'm just hoping to see, a more generalized discontent, when the new fatigue and sway system hit the stable branch. It's gonna be a turning point, one way or the other.

I also want better AI ASAP but can we stay on topic, please?

[Alwarren 2767]

They're screwing the game up, based on feedback from a small portion of the player base.

Yeah, it's always "a small portion of the player base" if people disagree with something, just like they always belong to the "non-vocal majority". Any mission or game mode can disable fatigue by script, so if you don't want it, fine, disable it. I prefer the fatigue, because it suddenly makes sense to take less weapons, or an SMG, instated of having a fifty cal in your backpack, a Zafir in your hands and a launcher and rockets on your back.

It would be easy to say "go play Battlefield" now, but the have a similar concept through kits. Fatigue is on the right track, and I'm happy it has been expanded on in a meaningful way.

[vegeta897 13]

So you're coop, OK, me too, but I'm also SP 60% of my time with the game.

You've backpedaled from "what you're saying only applies to PvP" to "what you're saying only applies to MP". You tried this PvP line on me just a few days ago in this thread, and it didn't work (I'm coop as well). But now you're talking about BIS not working on the AI, as a complaint regarding the new fatigue system? Small portion of the player base? I'm fairly certain a massive majority of the player base plays chiefly MP in Arma 3, in some form or another. Why is the fact that a new fatigue system is easier to implement than overhauling the AI a reason not to do it? That's exactly why they should do it, and have done it. If it's achievable for them, and people want it, that's a good thing. But you're complaining that they did it instead of something else, which is such a generic complaint that it could be made in response to any feature BIS adds to the game, because there will always be someone that wants something else.

And by the way, I'm looking forward to the new fatigue system influencing my tactical play and gear decisions in SP as well :)

Please drop this "fatigue only helps people who play X" argument. It helps all players looking for a tactical depthful experience in Arma. If you don't want it, disable fatigue.

[Jona33 51]

I've got to say I'm fully supportive of the fatigue and weapon sway aspect, it makes it much more interesting, and makes choosing your weapons and vest a genuine decision rather than grab a machine gun and a plate carrier. E.g. I just got shot in the arms, sure enough by gun is bobbing around crazily and I couldn't hit a thing. Sprinting up a hill punished me when I needed to shoot a guy from the top, if I'd walked it would have been much easier. It's cool to note that later getting shot in the legs affected weapon sway much less which is nice.

[-Coulum- 35]

Yes fatigue changes are nice. They have tied weapon sway in their nicely as well. You really don't want to tire yourself out unnecessarily. You also really, really don't want to get shot in the arms. Of course it will take a while for the ai to catch up with the standards but that is always the case. These changes have been great. Firefights are becoming more and more interesting, whether against ai or other players.

One suggestion I have is to make some of the adjusted stance slowly fatigue the player. Being in a low crouch, or low stand or any of the two sidesteps would be tiring in real life. This also ties in well with the fact that inertia will not effect the adjusted stances (which I hope will be changed eventually).

Edited July 5, 2014 by -Coulum-

[Bouben 3]

One suggestion I have is to make some of the adjusted stance slowly fatigue the player. Being in a low crouch, or low stand or any of the two sidesteps would be tiring in real life. This also ties in well with the fact that inertia will not effect the adjusted stances (which I hope will not be changed eventually).

+ 1

Very good point.

[twisted 128]

Yes fatigue changes are nice. They have tied weapon sway in their nicely as well. You really don't want to tire yourself out unnecessarily. You also really, really don't want to get shot in the arms. Of course it will take a while for the ai to catch up with the standards but that is always the case. These changes have been great. Firefights are becoming more and more interesting, whether against ai or other players.

One suggestion I have is to make some of the adjusted stance slowly fatigue the player. Being in a low crouch, or low stand or any of the two sidesteps would be tiring in real life. This also ties in well with the fact that inertia will not effect the adjusted stances (which I hope will be changed eventually).

exactly.

the new system is so far pretty damn great. BIS are getting it right. Stay the course, very interested in seeing how the inertia bit works out.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

I'm not seeing the horribleness of the new system that people are complaining about, I play both coop and pvp and occasionally on those long 'on foot' sections where we moved a couple klicks we might have to stop for a stamina break for like 10 seconds but otherwise it's barely noticeable.

It seems those complaining are the ones that want to give themselves 30 extra mags and a launcher with 5 shots in it and just hold W without any thought about stamina management.

[old_painless 182]

Im happy with the fatigue, but the panting and breathing is way too loud. Drowns out battle and ambient noise. And not really correlated with how fatigued you are. Run for 50m and you sound like you are about to throw up. Any half trained soldier would not reach that stage that quick

[Shagulon 1]

I suspect that people complaining about the new system are the more casual run and gun player who want to rack up kills above all else. Perhaps the new fatigue system could just be on the top two difficulty settings? I tend to only play those anyway as I don't like some of the features on the lower levels.

[Bouben 3]

I suspect that people complaining about the new system are the more casual run and gun player who want to rack up kills above all else. Perhaps the new fatigue system could just be on the top two difficulty settings? I tend to only play those anyway as I don't like some of the features on the lower levels.

I believe the new fatigue system has a potential to filter out extremely casual players from Arma. I would therefore let it be in all difficulty levels :o))

[Brainbug 10]

It would be nice to have some form of visual indicator to see how "down" you are. Maybe a stance indicator that turns yellow and red depending on injury, and a green, yellow or red edge for the fatigue level, and then maybe similarly colored background for it to show the suppression level.

The latter is something that shouldn't be connected to fatigue, so if you could put in a different variable for that, addons like TPW could use that instead of fatigue as they do now (if you don't want to implement it completely in vanilla Arma, which would be even better). Because I know I'd become quite quick if someone was shooting at me. There is no reason why someone that is crossing a street should become slower when he is shot at (and not hit!).

Weapon sway should be less connected to breathing and more to heartbeat and muscle tonus, i.e. not large movements but rather a short, irregular tremor with small regular jumps (heartbeat frequency should be connected to fatigue state). Look at biathletes, they don't sway up and down half a meter with breathing rhythm, but still have a hard time hitting the targets properly. You CAN put in some additional breathing sway, but that should stop completely when you press the "hold breath" key (and not just be reduced, like now).

[Greenfist 1863]

In my opinion, holding breath should almost completely steady the gun, regardless of how injured or fatigued you are. Like an extreme effort of tensing all the muscles and holding the breath to get a couple of accurate shots out. But as a penalty, afterwards the sway and exhaustion would be even bigger than before.

Holding breath doesn't increase fatigue level at the moment, does it? It should. Especially when you're already out of breath.

Currently I feel entirely defenseless if I'm suddenly fired upon when I'm fatigued and out in the open. I can't hit an enemy 20m away. Of course the point of the new system is to make you vulnerable, but right now you're too useless because the swaying is so huge with or without the hold breath key.

[chortles 263]

Breathing seems tied mainly/more to sway insofar as penalties for holding.

[roberthammer 582]

For me the Fatigue is kinda weird - during the campaign i had default loadout (NATO soldier) and after moving like 50-100m , swaying started to move around my screen

thats seems to be a little too much i think , also sway should move only vertical not horizontal (unless your hands are injured)

[Sillywabbit 10]

weapon sway is too much! get a ARCO and go to full zoom optic, its really lol worthy -.-

[CaptainObvious 95]

In my opinion, holding breath should almost completely steady the gun, regardless of how injured or fatigued you are. Like an extreme effort of tensing all the muscles and holding the breath to get a couple of accurate shots out. But as a penalty, afterwards the sway and exhaustion would be even bigger than before.

This could be good, just very minor jittering of the gun to give the player a feeling that he is really struggling to keep his aim steady, hnnng!

weapon sway is too much! get a ARCO and go to full zoom optic, its really lol worthy -.-

With all due respect, your crusade against the new fatigue is lol worthy, you've stated multiple times you don't like it, now stop it unless you have some constructive feedback.

[Ckrauslo 12]

(Don't know if fatigue got worse since my pc stopped working back in February) But let me say something, i believe people forget that even jogging with gear have it's penalties, even more with arma terrains that have a lot of hills...and most guys they stack the player up full of gear for a 2 to 4 days op, most people can't jog without stop for more than 8 miles even militaries "Without gear" imagine with helmet, or gun, plate carrier, belt, holster, a bag... and they even try to play running around with the weapon up...when the character in game is doing this, it's trying to maintain a stable stance, if he wasn't you would see the weapon jumping much more, this requires too much from the core and legs, arms...without saying that raising the weapon alters the balance, it's something really hard, i was fine with the fatigue in February, i found that pretty realistic... but most people in games expect the soldier to run no stop...i believe some other military guys here if they stopped to think would agree with me...

[mistyronin 1181]

In fact in RL even being rested and lying in a perfect firing position with your legs properly set, there is sway. That's why the first thing they teach you in the firing lane is how to breath.

Not to talk that in wartime soldiers almost never shoot in a perfect position, being sleep deprived, their emotions and adrenaline increase a lot the sway ( way more than in A3 ).

To get proper aiming you have to stabilize your gun ( with a bipod, tripod, attached to a tree, whatever... ), and even then there is a slightly sway ( you know, humans are living specimens that require blood flowing inside their body ).

The only ones that manage to get a 100% stabilized aiming are robots/machines.

[-Coulum- 35]

Currently I feel entirely defenseless if I'm suddenly fired upon when I'm fatigued and out in the open. I can't hit an enemy 20m away. Of course the point of the new system is to make you vulnerable, but right now you're too useless because the swaying is so huge with or without the hold breath key.

No I think this is exactly how it should feel. Arma has changed alot, but it has always been an unforgiving game. And thats one of the reasons I love it.

And on top of that I don't totally agree. When prone you can return fire up to 200 metres with reasonable accuracy, even when tired. And you rest up quickly. If your caught out in the open and exhausted it is entirely possible to lay down some effective suppressive fire. And that's how it should be. You shouldn't be sniper accurate.

I believe sway is pretty good right now. The only suggestion I have is regarding hold breath. I think it should slow the sway of the reticule much more (but not totally deaden it movement), BUT there should have a longer "warm up time" to become effective - maybe 2 to 3 seconds. This represents the players having to prepare to steady his aim. In reality You don't suddenly stop breathing mid breath and gain accuracy. Sometimes people don't even hold but rather slowly exhale. Either way it is not something that is just "instantaneous steady aim". It takes some time.

This would make hold breath more useful, but make its employment involve some skill and planning.

I also don't think that hold breath should get you out of being tired or injured at all. If you got shot or your tired you should suffer from it. Especially getting shot. c'mon!

Edited July 7, 2014 by -Coulum-

[seba1976 98]

And still you'll have to put 6 5.56 shots to kill a units. Meh...

[Brisse 78]

And still you'll have to put 6 5.56 shots to kill a units. Meh...

Not true. The amount of shots needed depends on a lot of factors. Bullet velocity at impact, personal protection and where you hit. It can be anything from 1 to 6. If you are skilled and know how to use the 5.56 effectively, you will rarely need more than 3 shots.