Dragon Rising has been released

[myshaak 0]

144 now in ArmA II isn't it?

Yep.. and a unit limit per group is skyhigh :)

[jblackrupert 14]

OUCH! That is a list of pretty harsh facts that is hard to deny. I thought you were being biased and slamming the game, but verifying your statements, I see it's well balanced and fair.

I could fill a page of complaints about Arma 2 but none that come even

remotely close to the pathetic crap that is DR.

The lies CM told and are still telling with new videos is what keeps

me slamming on DR and people like templar working with them to sucker

more people out of their hard earned dollars pisses me off to no end.

Ya it's just a game and ya CM is a business but that game costs real money

and lying to get peoples money is just scummy.

[vilas 474]

But im not happy with the way they took. In my opinion ArmA2 is the same thing like OFP just with better graphics.

It is like a band making 3 Albums with the same sound but every time with a better studio technic...some like it and other would like to see a step forward.

hey, maybe people want the same OFP still ?

why CWR exist ? cause many people LOVE OFP and for me if BIS will make "another cold war game" i would be happy

i don't think that "changing previous ideas" just for changes itself - is right

i think that changing style can be bad thing, cause people love some things

why we hate DR / CM ? cause they changed OFP idea, they promissed OFP sequel

you say about steps forward ? nooo no no, for me it is "keeping atmosphere"

i cannot imagine that Iron Maiden start to rap or disco

i cannot imagine Vader playing acoustic guitar

do you know how many people throw away Metallica posters/records when they cut hair and changed style on LOAD ??

in my country many of my friends told "f*** Metallica, they are not like they were yesterday"

cause we wanted them to be all the time , the same and keep previous style we loved :]

people loved some metal bands for their return to 80's style, like last Judas Priest and great vocalist back

and people would love to see OFP for another time but with better graphics

for me even if BIS made this game like CWR will do it , it would be greater than now

i could indentify myself with 80's cold war, but it is harder to identify myself with Caucas Chernarus and marpat units

for you it is "step forward", maybe we (many people of OFP community) are simply so called "conservationists" ?

people from DR forum told we want past back , yeah, i agree and i see nothing bad in this

if i like something - i never change mind, i can visit the same place i love 100 times, i can eat the same soup 1000 times - cause i like it

and i don't need new things if i love old things

you may not be conservatist in this, but many of us are, look at premiere of CWR in Arma1

you will see premiere of CWR in Arma2

it is all dedicated to OFP

like i spent a hell amount of time to make cold war mod, simply because of OFP love

from your point of view it is "development" if someone changes something, for me it is "not keeping roots"

there are people who love bands that change styles, there are also people who feel hate when band changes style :)

you say you don't like it

well - many people didn't like when they saw "banana republic RACS and SLA" instead of woodland US and KLMK soviets

look at 2005/2006 promo screens showing Soviets vs. Americans

i was disappointed to see not real armies and one of first things i done in Arma1 addonmaking was "bring back KLMK and Woodland", of course it was poor reskin

but my first thought was "i want US and USSR back" and i ONLY played on north sahrani, cause me, as central/east european cannot identify myself with desert :)

OFP was about my childhood and , although you may blame BIS, but if hypothetically BIS will Arma3 in 1955, 1985 ... i would be very happy seeing again such scenario like OFP

simply we love different things, you love changes, i love staying the same

like i stop buying and listening to Sepultura after ROOTS, ROOTS was super, but all next... i thank that Max Cavalera keeps his style in last Soulfly albums :D and i feel it again

from your point of view it can be step back, from my point of view - Max back to good old way

Dragon Rice is bad, cause they turned most holy name "OFP" into *** , it is neither military realistic, nor simulator, nor OFP sequel , nor anything

Edited January 7, 2010 by vilas

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

well - many people didn't like when they saw "banana republic RACS and SLA" instead of woodland US and KLMK soviets

look at 2005/2006 promo screens showing Soviets vs. Americans

i was disappointed to see not real armies and one of first things i done in Arma1 addonmaking was "bring back KLMK and Woodland", of course it was poor reskin

but my first thought was "i want US and USSR back" and i ONLY played on north sahrani, cause me, as central/east european cannot identify myself with desert :)

OFP was about my childhood and , although you may blame BIS, but if hypothetically BIS will Arma3 in 1955, 1985

Interesting you're mentioning. For me it was no problem having two fictional armies on a strange island that fits into two climatic zones :D Maybe I wasn't worried or disappointed because I knew in the Bohemia Saga everything will be possible. Basicly you can have Everon & Co., Sahrani & Co. and Chernarus & Co. in one game. That's outstanding! That's one big statement why I like the Bohemia Saga and I don't like many other games - simply because everyone can get what everyone wants. WW2, Sci-Fi, Present military, past military, future military, different settings & stories. There is no limit and that's very sexy! :D Play the game as hard or as soft as you want, use whatever you want, create whatever you want. Supporting ArmA stuff helped me getting a real job! Hell, maybe I owe BI my job in my recent company?!

[andersson 285]

To be honest, I´ve -actually- not figure out what exactly this does. In the OFP options, you can set the amount of objects (Editor Objects, presumeably.) to any amount between 20 and 256.

Sure your not mixing OFP with OFP-elite?

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well BIS faults for Armed Assault:

- very buggy release

- performance issues

- AI bugs and issues

- bad missions/campaign design

Somehow I have doubts that BIS will take their time to develop (incl. proper/extensive betatesting) exciting missions/campaigns and improve AI. Guess they simply rely on "community-will-fix-and-tune-it" and release another sandbox-"game"-tool.

Lets see if there will be an alternative to play....

[wiggum2 31]

@ vilas

Its not about changing the game itself or the spirit of OFP/ArmA.

Its about taking the gameplay to the next level !

- Making a better more intuitiv command menu.

I think nobody would say that there is no room for major improvments, just look here:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1532924&postcount=47

- Get the AI to use buildings

One of the biggest issues since CWC

- Make a better AI

Why do we have all these AI mods ? Because the standard AI of ArmA2 is very bad. They tried to balancing it by making them to perfect snipers on high settings...

Thats are the major problems in my opinion.

Its something that never really changed since CWC...they never took a step forward in these gameplay things.

[Tonci87 163]

This Thread has only one conclusion

OFPDR: Some say shit, some say bad

OPF CWC: Greatest game ever

Arma: Really good, but not as good as OPF

Arma2: Absolutely fantastic and way better than OFPDR. Great Step forward from Arma

So lets hope that BIS continues its way to Glory with OPA and lets every disapointed OFPDR Player and show him what a real community is like

[Deadfast 43]

- Make a better AI

Why do we have all these AI mods ? Because the standard AI of ArmA2 is very bad. They tried to balancing it by making them to perfect snipers on high settings...

That's not true...

I'm not saying there isn't any room for improvements but it isn't very bad.

Compared to the original (OFP:CWC) they are smart as hell.

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

- Making a better more intuitiv command menu.

I think nobody would say that there is no room for major improvments, just look here:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1532924&postcount=47

Let me add, make an option what command menu you'd like to use. As for me, I've grown up with the old OFP command menu and I don't need anything new. But there're other players, especially casual gamers, who need something else "to get warm with the game". Make everybody happy with the option to choose.

- Get the AI to use buildings

One of the biggest issues since CWC

True :( Sometimes I'd like to position scouts or snipers on high buildings but the AI won't follow my order. However the use of house positions had been improved over the years. From my point of view it's possible to have that fixed, but it means a lot of work. Don't expect such fixes in the near future.

- Make a better AI

Why do we have all these AI mods ? Because the standard AI of ArmA2 is very bad.

That's the mother of all games ... good AI. What is "good"? As for me, if the player can't recognize the difference between a real player and the AI, then it's good AI. AI shouldn't be godlike, knowing everything and reacting faster than lightspeed. But AI should be allowed to make mistakes, humans do too! However that doesn't mean vehicles should be sticking in walls, driving over own troops, crashing planes into trees.

Some AI mods exists because many people want more aggressive AI. Sometimes vanilla ArmA is just too easy. AI should call for reinforments if possible, human players would do the same - if possible. Player sometimes want the feeling of getting hunted. Player sometimes want unpredictable AI, never having the same situation all over again like in scripted events. It's possible for years in ArmA, yet only few players know and/or use this.

From a gameplay point of view I think the ArmA II campaign is boring. The story is good so far, but at the end I go there and there, kill those and those. I was never suppressed by the enemy. I could even leave my team behind and winning the war alone. Well, that's not the spirit of the Bohemia Saga IMHO :( On the other side ... there's a story to tell. If the player can't follow the story anymore because he is too busy surviving the mission some players may quit as well. You can't satisfy everyone, in any game.

Edited January 7, 2010 by [GLT] Legislator

[wiggum2 31]

There are such special moments that i miss in ArmA2...

Just two examples:

OFDR:

I left my team behind and want to call an airstike on a enemy tank. But suddenly 2 or 3 groups of PLA came in my direction and started shooting at me.

I took cover behind a small rock and was not able to do anything (call it supressed).

I opened the Map and ordered my team to "MOVE FAST" to the position of the PLA soldiers. They run down the hill and started to attack them. I took my head up and picked out 4 of the PLA soldiers...then they started to retreat under the cover of smoke. One of my team died in this action and one get wounded.

CMSF: <- A total different game !

Syrian-Airborne are in a building and have attacked my vehicles with some RPG's from about 200m. I took 2 Marine squads close to the building while i supressed them with fire from 2 heavy MG's dug in 800m away.

As i have my two squads close enough to storm the building suddenly 2 handgranades hit one of my squads, kill 2 and wounding 8, that squad was in panic. I ordered the other squad to lay down suppresive fire to the building but those syrians fight back furious. So i had to pull all my man back.

I shot 2 javelins at the building and it collapsed. The hole action took about 20 minutes.

I never had such "special" moments in ArmA2 (SP !)...

I would say SP is boring as hell in ArmA, thats one of my problems with the game.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Wiggum

[jw custom 56]

LOL then you clearly haven't been playing ArmA 2 that much because what your describing is not "special moments" in ArmA 2 but rather everyday events... lol

[Bulldogs 10]

I think that's the core of what people argue about. It's how you play the game.

A lot of people enjoy playing DR because of the way they play it and the way they like playing it, whereas a lot of other people would consider playing it anyway boring as hell, and badly designed.

The same go's for ArmA 2. A lot of people play it one way and it turns out crap for them. If they played it another way, and they liked playing that way, then I'm sure they would enjoy it.

Take for example the mission in the campaign where you're trapped behind enemy lines trying to get to a safezone where the chopper can extract you to the boat. That mission can be played two ways. The first being to put your AI on "do not engage" and sneak out of the enemy zone slowly, only engaging when absolutely necessary. The second way being to run like all hell and praying that the chopper flying overhead doesn't spot you and tell every tank in the area to light up your position.

It's all in the way you enjoy playing. People who truely love DR, I can't expect them to love ArmA 2, because it's a completely different game with completely different play styles.

As Wiggum mentioned, his moment of being supressed by the AI and needing to bring his squad mates in to draw fire while he picked the AI off. When a moment like that comes up in DR you have about a 90% chance of success depending on skill level, with ArmA 2 at the same skill level you'd have a 20% chance of success, and to improve those odds you'd have to carry out some tricky tactics or you're swiss.

That kind of thing doesn't appeal to all players, some prefer the easier battle.... personally my theory has always been that if it's too hard then you're doing it wrong. Stop and think... but patience isn't a virtue that everyone has in spades.

As for the AI. DR AI under an echelon isn't as bad as everyone makes out, it just isn't that great either. It isn't 1/10th of the ArmA 2 AI, but it still isn't that bad.

Personally ArmA 2's AI is the best I've ever seen in a game (the constant arguement I hear of UT3 or Fear AI being the best is a great one, isn't it? Brilliant AI that doesn't really need to do anything complex), where was I... that's right, personally I think ArmA 2's AI is the best I've seen, but there is massive room for improvement, as there is with anything. I would love it if the AI was complex enough to handle any situation like a real human, but we're still decades off that kind of AI, still, I patiently away that day with angst.

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

I left my team behind and want to call an airstike on a enemy tank. But suddenly 2 or 3 groups of PLA came in my direction and started shooting at me.

I took cover behind a small rock and was not able to do anything (call it supressed).

I opened the Map and ordered my team to "MOVE FAST" to the position of the PLA soldiers. They run down the hill and started to attack them. I took my head up and picked out 4 of the PLA soldiers...then they started to retreat under the cover of smoke. One of my team died in this action and one get wounded.

I had lots of such moments in both ArmA I and II (multiplayer mode, coop missions). However as I'm not playing often with AI under my command my human team and I had to solve such situations on our own. I remember a very cool situation in 2007 ... my team member and I secured an old ruine, we have positioned ourselves in the upper floor. Nobody secured the door afterwards - big mistake - we underestamed the enemy AI. An enemy soldier (speznaz) entered the building, placed a satchel charge and blew us up! :eek:We were shocked for minutes as we'd never expected this.

Another situation was a very clever AI pilot. We forced a Mi-17 to land, the pilot escaped into the woods. We didn't follow him. Instead we repaired and refueld the chopper and continued the mission. Half an hour later we saw "our" chopper in the air firing at us. The enemy pilot followed us, stayed hidden and recaptured his Mi-17.

But to be honest, it doesn't happen every day. Such moments are very rare, however they happen under certain circumstances.

CMSF: <- A total different game !

Syrian-Airborne are in a building and have attacked my vehicles with some RPG's from about 200m. I took 2 Marine squads close to the building while i supressed them with fire from 2 heavy MG's dug in 800m away.

As i have my two squads close enough to storm the building suddenly 2 handgranades hit one of my squads, kill 2 and wounding 8, that squad was in panic. I ordered the other squad to lay down suppresive fire to the building but those syrians fight back furious. So i had to pull all my man back.

I shot 2 javelins at the building and it collapsed. The hole action took about 20 minutes.

Hmm, have you ever encountered an ambush with javelins? :D Or suddenly exploding IED dogs followed by insurgent attacks? AI placing mines on the street? Well ... not in BI missions I guess, but check out some of the community missions. Don't worry, they're free :D

I would say SP is boring as hell in ArmA, thats one of my problems with the game.

Hmmm I'm playing the ArmA II campaign for the first time now and basicly I agree. The story is good as I mentioned, especially the different story arcs and ending. However it seemed to easy and the warfare missions at the end are total nonsens. BI can do better things, they've already proven that. Let's hope the OPA will be better.

But - to get the arc to the topic - although ArmA II had a very bad start and still has some technical and design issues I think it can beat many other games. I've played Far Cry ... it took me 4 years (!) to play the campaign because it was so boring. I've played Prey and I quit after the first half of the game. I've played Quake 4 and was bored. I tried to play Crysis, but after the demo I had enough. Then the first glimpses of Dragon Rising showed up. Yeah, it was really promising at the beginning. I had hopes that the game will bring new life into the genre. Well ... it ended up as an ordinary ego shooter with a die-fast bonus on hardcore mode.

I like missions that last for 2 to 3 hours where players are behind enemy lines, cut off from support, all on their own finding a way home, executing a mission or something like that. Sometimes this means having a 10 km march on foot at night with less ammo surrounded by hundreds of enemies, without a map and gps, only orientating with the stars and a compass. Is this possible in Dragon Rising too? If yes, is anyone able to create such a mission in .. lets say .. 10 hours excluding intensive bugfixing? And I'm not speaking about placing 300 enemies and letting the player move from point A to B. Story + optional (hidden) side missions + ambushes + different designed locations + multiple factions + performance has to be ok. It's doable in 10 hours, but it's hard work even in ArmA II. However it's possible at least.

As for graphics ... well ... its kind of a nonsens criteria. Crysis looks really good, but still I don't like the game. From my point of view ArmA II has the better graphics than Dragon Rising leading to higher requirements. Even if Dragon Rising had the same graphics niveau like ArmA has, I wouldn't play it. Too much doesn't fit in this game and I feel sorry for the players who believed in Codemasters and felt disappointed afterwards.

Edit:

@Bulldog:

Take for example the mission in the campaign where you're trapped behind enemy lines trying to get to a safezone where the chopper can extract you to the boat. That mission can be played two ways. The first being to put your AI on "do not engage" and sneak out of the enemy zone slowly, only engaging when absolutely necessary. The second way being to run like all hell and praying that the chopper flying overhead doesn't spot you and tell every tank in the area to light up your position.

It's very ironical you've choosen this mission for your post :) I like such missions but the mission Bitter Chill was crap. I told my AI team not to fire, they followed my order - so far, so good, I wanted it this way. Then we walked 4 km and except for the Mi-24 and a single BMP-3 I found nobody to fight with even if I would have wanted to :D I wasn't hunted, it was baby chill, not a bitter chill.

Edited January 7, 2010 by [GLT] Legislator

[Bulldogs 10]

I've been trying to remember where I saw this, think it was in a magazine, but many years back I remember them saying that Operation Flashpoint 2 was going to take place across several continents including Egypt and China. Sounded really cool at the time but I remember thinking straight away "oh god, not another Medal of Honor/Call of Duty clone"

Anyone remember that, 'cause the details I remember are sketchy.

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

I'd like to add one aspect which I totally forgot. Can players use Dragon Rising as plattform for creating movies? I don't mean quickly captured battles, but really big productions? Take Red Dawn: Endgame for example. Really a good example what you can ArmA use for too:

- use some units as actors

- use some locations as movie settings

- create your own story

- capture your voice and use it with the actors

- use every possible ingame animation for your actors

- use the game soundtrack or any 3rd party soundtrack

In one sentence: The Bohemia Saga is a movie plattform too!

Dare it! Create funny movies, create dramatic movies, create huge battles, try to recreate a whole hollywood production. Everything is possible if you want it. The camera mode is unique. I tried to capture movies in other games and it was real pain and made no fun.

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

I believe this firm Interactive Magic or whatever in fact made BIS to take this step from their original "Battlezone-clone" which involved just vehicles waging combat over large area. And you can thank Codemasters for them demanding/advicing BIS to include MP, because that generates even more $$$. BIS of course understands this as it doesn't want to become just niece game developer as that doesn't generate $$$.

Let me tell you guys a fact: Back in the day, Interactive Magic was moving to the Raleigh area and were looking for a lead game designer. I had lunch with the suits of Interactive Magic (pre-release Apache). And they were looking at me to take the job. At this time it was two guys in a rented station wagon setting up shop in the Research Triangle Area. I asked how they got involved because they were money men and not game people. They admitted that they were not game people but wanted somebody that was. I was in the video gaming industry and owned a company that was the largest reseller of SNK (Neo-Geo) titles and produced video's and news clips from the different game shows like E3 and Consumer Electronics, so they knew of me. I had a reputation of stirring up trouble by putting on my video's and telling my customers (This is is great!, this one is CRAP!) And it worked..... so I had at the time a reputation of yelling CRAP if the title was crap, and had a loyal following of customers and subscriber base. But that's not important, just how they found me. They wanted to use my company to spring board a marketing channel. They really weren't interested in me, just the reputation and customer base. But that's not important, just how they found me, and why.

Over a 2 hour lunch we discussed the gaming industry and the business model they were going to use. Literally during lunch they said, their goal was to purchase titles from struggling developers and release them in the US. No testing, no development, purely "buy half finished games, publish them as is in the US." Remember how fail those titles were? I nearly choked on my sandwich. I really didn't NEED the job, but it was interesting, so I said, "so you guys aren't interested in producing original titles of quality?"

The answer was as clear as can be "we can make more money by just purchasing titles for peanuts and publishing." They met "Wild Bill Stealey" (old timer game publisher) playing golf and that's how it started. They had found a title to launch the company (Apache: Longbow) and they were going to ride the success of that title to peddle their crap.

At the end of lunch, I knew they weren't interested in me, nor I in them.

Then I guess they got some poor sucker to sign on with them, and they proceeded to produce one crap title after another. I literally, personally knew people on their staff, they had three game testers for all their games. Three They would release 2-3 games a month. All great in concept, but all alpha stage. Their failure was to produce and release the failed F22 Lighting game that they weren't licensed for, and got sued. Then they shut their doors.

CM reminds me of those guys in the car. Purely cash grab.

BTW (for old times sake) "Dragon Rising is - CRAP!" boy that feels better.

Edited January 7, 2010 by [RIP] Luhgnut

[wiggum2 31]

At the end of the day its all about the personal preference.

When it comes to the "action" i prefer DR...because in my opinion it faster with more drive. But other people will see this different.

I only play ArmA2 in Coop modus now because thats lot of fun and full of amusing situations. We disable the AI in our group and play it on our own.

For me, ArmA2 is a game and should be fun so we dont acting like real soldiers all the time (that is just not possible many times).

So if someone will ask me if i like ArmA2, my answer would be "just in MP because SP is boring to me and in my opinion the AI is dumb".

For the "real" combat atmosphere i play CMSF because ArmA cant give me those wtf moments and the feeling that i have to use complex tactics. But many get those combat atmosphere from playing ArmA and thats fine as long as they dont act like they are something better then the rest who only plays shooters.

If i want action i play DR.

If i want Coop/MP fun i play ArmA2

If i want the "combat atmosphere" and the tactical challenge i play CMSF

[jw custom 56]

If i want action i play DR.

If i want Coop/MP fun i play ArmA2

If i want the "combat atmosphere" and the tactical challenge i play CMSF

Good for you...

[templargfx 10]

Good for you...

another typical comment from a member of this supposedly "great" community

[froggyluv 2130]

@JW Custom -LoL, if we had a Community award for sarcasm...

Tried some of the Intel winner missions and as usual, the highlights are always "Wow, my guy can use a house pretty good".

Call me freaky, but I like to scan my objectives from far away before I set my offensive plan, the problem is that too often, the enemy hasn't spawned yet :(

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

another typical comment from a member of this supposedly "great" community

the same one you obviously want desperately to be accepted by, by your continued trolling.

[jw custom 56]

@JW Custom -LoL, if we had a Community award for sarcasm...

No honestly thats good for him, he just can't convince me he actually put some time into playing ArmA 2. Same goes for templar he found out ArmA 2 actually have a learning curve which DR doesn't and that most likely scared him away :)

[templargfx 10]

Im just of the opinion that if you get a little, you should give a little in return. :p

If I wanted to be "accepted" trolling is hardly the way to go about it :j:

[wiggum2 31]

No honestly thats good for him, he just can't convince me he actually put some time into playing ArmA 2. Same goes for templar he found out ArmA 2 actually have a learning curve which DR doesn't and that most likely scared him away :)

So what is this "learning curve" ?

And how should i prove you that i put enough time into ArmA2 ?

If i would say "ArmA2 is a real sim and a fantastic game" you would think i have put more time in it.

Just because i dont like all aspects of the game doesent mean the i diddent played it enough. I played CWC a lot and i nearly read the hole ArmA2 manual so i think there isent something i dont know about it.

Maybe you can tell me what else i have to learn so i fully enjoy ArmA2 ?

I have even done a Coop mission for ArmA2:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=81414