Dragon Rising has been released

[templargfx 10]

ok, boy I cant wait for the smart ass comments your all going to throw at this one!

Singleplayer plain old sucks.

Singplayer sucks because the AI is terrible. they get stuck, they ignore people being shot right next to them, even when they should have full morale, they often dont do what you tell em, or they decide they should do something else first.

death animations look like something out of a cartoon

did I mention singleplayer sucks? thats the main reason I dont like, I dont give a flying shit about multiplayer, I dont wanna play multiplayer

[Stryker_1 10]

ok, boy I cant wait for the smart ass comments your all going to throw at this one!

Singleplayer plain old sucks.

Singplayer sucks because the AI is terrible. they get stuck, they ignore people being shot right next to them, even when they should have full morale, they often dont do what you tell em, or they decide they should do something else first.

death animations look like something out of a cartoon

did I mention singleplayer sucks? thats the main reason I dont like, I dont give a flying shit about multiplayer, I dont wanna play multiplayer

Perhaps go over to Armaholic and try a user made campaign. I prefer single player myself. The only caveat is some of these campaigns require addons which can be a bit of a pain to manage, particularily when you get alot of them. They are worth it to me as the trade off is you get some real interesting stuff. I really enjoyed the user campaign made by Bardosy (Chesty Puller, No Addons Required) see link below. He put good humor into it. It doesn't have voice acting and there is some spelling issues etc.....but definitely alot of fun.

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=7599

Edited January 7, 2010 by Stryker_1

[jw custom 56]

Yes i used that commands, but my team never does what i want them to do.

I fell all the time they are just ballast for me and they hardly survive the first contact with the enemy. Thats why i gave up playing ArmA2 in the SP modus.

Yes, i got flanked and suprised in ArmA2 too, but i nerver felt like im in the middle of some combat with my squad helping me and act clever.

I never had long firefights where i have to retreat or have to use my full firepower against a dug in enemy.

And thats all relating to the SP modus of ArmA2 !

Sounds like you got pwned, well yes then maybe your better of with DR. Don't judge yourself ArmA 2 is not easy to master.

The reason you have a hard time having long firefights is because the AI is leathal, solution adjust the enemies skill in your settings ;)

[gulag 10]

THEY get stuck? Perhaps you mean that you get stuck, because you do not know how to use keyboard, Is that your reason? You blame Artificial Intelligence for your failure? LOL!

[templargfx 10]

THEY get stuck? Perhaps you mean that you get stuck, because you do not know how to use keyboard, Is that your reason? You blame Artificial Intelligence for your failure? LOL!

smartass comment #1

you know, getting stuck as in not moving and having to be left behind because of some invisible whatever they cant get over

[TimRiceSE 10]

Edited to remove extreme rudeness!

Edited January 7, 2010 by TimRiceSE

[Ulysses 10]

ok, boy I cant wait for the smart ass comments your all going to throw at this one!

Singleplayer plain old sucks.

Singplayer sucks because the AI is terrible. they get stuck, they ignore people being shot right next to them, even when they should have full morale, they often dont do what you tell em, or they decide they should do something else first.

death animations look like something out of a cartoon

did I mention singleplayer sucks? thats the main reason I dont like, I dont give a flying shit about multiplayer, I dont wanna play multiplayer

Pretty apt description of Dragon Rising, come to think of it. Didn't you have to script it so they'd notice taking fire at range ? Break pretty easily too, and for the ignoring orders part - ever try to get a SMAW operator to take out a tank via "Engage" ? Hit or miss if they'll actually do it, in my experience.

[Zipper5 74]

Singleplayer plain old sucks.

Singplayer sucks because the AI is terrible. they get stuck, they ignore people being shot right next to them, even when they should have full morale, they often dont do what you tell em, or they decide they should do something else first.

death animations look like something out of a cartoon

did I mention singleplayer sucks? thats the main reason I dont like, I dont give a flying shit about multiplayer, I dont wanna play multiplayer

I agree that the SP campaign and missions aren't the best in BIS' games. However, I would say that they're more enjoyable and well-made than ArmA's were. OFP's have been the best so far, in my opinion.

Very rarely does the AI act terribly for me, and I do a lot of mission making. And this is SP mission making, not MP mission making, so I'm always dealing with AI. I've seen them get stuck occasionally (usually when driving a vehicle), but very, very rarely do I see the rest of the stuff you mention. You should know that the AI won't react to your exact commands when in Danger mode, since it was exactly the same in OFP and ArmA. Keep them in Alert or even Safe if you want them to do so. They do hold fire when you tell them to, and follow you when you tell them to, but they'll react if they feel they are endangering themselves by doing so. In fact, I believe they do what CM promised DR's AI would do, what with their ability to ignore orders based on their morale, which I never, ever saw evidence of in DR, and still haven't to this day.

I think the death animations are pretty damn good, actually. I recall a few people actually thinking ArmA II had ragdoll with it, since they looked so good. But then again, the death animations were much worse in ArmA and OFP.

But your last part presents a very odd conundrum. Why, if you don't give a shit about MP in ArmA II, do you give a shit about it in DR? Your mission is designed to also be playable in coop. The irony of that is, from a technological standpoint, DR's MP is much worse than ArmA II's. You have no dedicated servers, unsynchronized commands, huge amounts of lag and very few missions to choose from. ArmA II's MP is not perfect, but like I said before, it's miles better than DR's, so why do you give a shit about DR's MP?

[jw custom 56]

so why do you give a shit about DR's MP?

LOL i was thinking exactly the same :p

[templargfx 10]

I agree that the SP campaign and missions aren't the best in BIS' games. However, I would say that they're more enjoyable and well-made than ArmA's were. OFP's have been the best so far, in my opinion.

Completely agree ArmA's SP was terrible, OFP's was awesome. I still remember that first ride in the truck with my squad as we approach the objective, getting out and following the squad leaders orders. quite a "this aint no kiddy shooter" moment

Very rarely does the AI act terribly for me, and I do a lot of mission making. And this is SP mission making, not MP mission making, so I'm always dealing with AI. I've seen them get stuck occasionally (usually when driving a vehicle), but very, very rarely do I see the rest of the stuff you mention. You should know that the AI won't react to your exact commands when in Danger mode, since it was exactly the same in OFP and ArmA. Keep them in Alert or even Safe if you want them to do so. They do hold fire when you tell them to, and follow you when you tell them to, but they'll react if they feel they are endangering themselves by doing so. In fact, I believe they do what CM promised DR's AI would do, what with their ability to ignore orders based on their morale, which I never, ever saw evidence of in DR, and still haven't to this day.

It was actually the soldiers getting stuck, I had a hummer run into a building once, but that was it vehicle wise.

I have seen my guys morale break on several occasions and not take any orders.

I think the death animations are pretty damn good, actually. I recall a few people actually thinking ArmA II had ragdoll with it, since they looked so good. But then again, the death animations were much worse in ArmA and OFP.

how they fall looks good (recorded animations always do) but shooting a guy and have him dramatically fling his arms up and slowly fall down to the left looks like something out of a cartoon

But your last part presents a very odd conundrum. Why, if you don't give a shit about MP in ArmA II, do you give a shit about it in DR? Your mission is designed to also be playable in coop. The irony of that is, from a technological standpoint, DR's MP is much worse than ArmA II's. You have no dedicated servers, unsynchronized commands, huge amounts of lag and very few missions to choose from. ArmA II's MP is not perfect, but like I said before, it's miles better than DR's, so why do you give a shit about DR's MP?

adding MP to Island war was as simple as highlighting the 3 other members of the fireteam and choosing "multi-playable" all the code runs off player 1 and completely disregards the other players

[MehMan 0]

ok, boy I cant wait for the smart ass comments your all going to throw at this one!

Singleplayer plain old sucks.

Singplayer sucks because the AI is terrible. they get stuck, they ignore people being shot right next to them, even when they should have full morale, they often dont do what you tell em, or they decide they should do something else first.

death animations look like something out of a cartoon

did I mention singleplayer sucks? thats the main reason I dont like, I dont give a flying shit about multiplayer, I dont wanna play multiplayer

Yeah, you're right, Dragon Rising's SP sucks.

[wiggum2 31]

Sounds like you got pwned, well yes then maybe your better of with DR. Don't judge yourself ArmA 2 is not easy to master.

The reason you have a hard time having long firefights is because the AI is leathal, solution adjust the enemies skill in your settings ;)

Yes, i died a lot in OFP and ArmA2... :D

Maybe im not a good player in FPS but thats not the point.

And yes, the lethality is far too high like in most games. I set the enemy AI to 0.60 because with higher setting you have no chance but thats because of the dumb AI of my team in my opinion.

I just played another DR mission from that contest and it was great. Many really exciting moments and my team acted nearly perfect. I just wish to have the same mission in ArmA2 and could really compare the AI of both games.

And please guys cool down a bit.

I think some of us discuss here very civilized. Others just wright some wrongs like they want to see this thread closed.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Wiggum

[jw custom 56]

adding MP to Island war was as simple as highlighting the 3 other members of the fireteam and choosing "multi-playable" all the code runs off player 1 and completely disregards the other players

And here i thought you played DR online, maybe my memory from reading the CM forums are bad.

And yes, the lethality is far too high like in most games. I set the enemy AI to 0.60 because with higher setting you have no chance but thats because of the dumb AI of my team in my opinion.

Well it goes all the way down to zero!

So your team AI is stupid but the enemy AI is leathal..... hmmmm maybe your a bad leader ;)

Edited January 7, 2010 by JW Custom

[Zipper5 74]

Hm, well that does a lot towards explaining why MP is so laggy in DR if no optimization is "necessary" to make missions for it. I'm sure many things used in optimizing it for MP are there which "should" be used, but aren't.

There's only one death animation that I've seen that looks like what you described. It does look a bit odd if you really analyze it, but frankly, I've never really noticed or had to the time to do so. Besides, it's a guy dying. You should be moving on to the next target. :p

I saw the AI get stuck occasionally in patches before one of the more recent beta ones. One of them actually fixed that issue specifically, and I have yet to see it happen again since.

I think there are two major things you need to do to enjoy ArmA II. 1) Keep up to date with new patches and updates, they're being released almost all the time. 2) Try out a couple community made mods and missions. Many offer a better experience than BIS', or improve on BIS' work to a great extent. If you're not happy with the AI's current performance, then try using AI modifying mods specifically.

ArmA II's AI is definitely much smarter than DR's, though. They know how to properly take cover, not like DR's do where they go behind a low wall and keep popping up at the same place. They know how to lean, how to strafe, how to flank, how to suppress, all without being scripted or having to be scripted by the mission maker. Whereas, in DR, you have to place down an Echelon, but even then they're even made so that they can't hit you by default. Plus, even though ArmA II's AI may not drive so well on roads sometimes, at least they do. DR's AI doesn't even seem to recognize roads and drives wherever the hell they want. The convoys that you see in the campaign and FTE missions for DR are all scripted to stay on the roads.

[templargfx 10]

Yeah, you're right, Dragon Rising's SP sucks.

Smartass comment #2

Hm, well that does a lot towards explaining why MP is so laggy in DR if no optimization is "necessary" to make missions for it. I'm sure many things used in optimizing it for MP are there which "should" be used, but aren't.

MP is so laggy in DR because it doesnt have dedicated servers. the mission editor automatically configures all the optimizations according to what you have put into the level

ArmA II's AI is definitely much smarter than DR's, though. They know how to properly take cover, not like DR's do where they go behind a low wall and keep popping up at the same place. They know how to lean, how to strafe, how to flank, how to suppress, all without being scripted or having to be scripted by the mission maker. Whereas, in DR, you have to place down an Echelon, but even then they're even made so that they can't hit you by default. Plus, even though ArmA II's AI may not drive so well on roads sometimes, at least they do. DR's AI doesn't even seem to recognize roads and drives wherever the hell they want. The convoys that you see in the campaign and FTE missions for DR are all scripted to stay on the roads.

You make it sound like putting in echelons is a hard thing. and you only need to do that if you want to build your own customised fireteams, of which there is little need as each side has around 30 fireteams and 10 squads already configured for you

you dont need to script suppression or flanking, just tell them to assault and they will do these things automatically

[wiggum2 31]

Well it goes all the way down to zero!

So your team AI is stupid but the enemy AI is leathal..... hmmmm maybe your a bad leader ;)

Leathal dont means smart !

Just because the hit you very fast, often with the first shot, dont means that this is a good AI.

They know how to properly take cover, not like DR's do where they go behind a low wall and keep popping up at the same place. They know how to lean, how to strafe, how to flank, how to suppress, all without being scripted or having to be scripted by the mission maker.

Here i have to disagree.

I never saw the ArmA2 AI properly take cover somewhere, but in DR i see this all the time. And i dont think you can call it suppressive fire in both games.

I think that is not modelled well in both games.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Wiggum

[andersson 285]

Others just wright some wrongs like they want to see this thread closed.

And who do we think it is..? :D

[Zipper5 74]

No, it's not a hard thing to do. It's an utterly unnecessary thing to do. Why couldn't they have just put the Echelon features in as default without requiring you to use one? That's just... Stupid on their part. Seeing a lot of that in regards to Codemasters.

They may automatically do the suppression and flanking, but they don't do it very well at all. We've all seen them suppressing a harmless wall while the player runs around behind him and knifes him from less than a foot away. ArmA II's does it very well. If you're up close and personal with an AI with a RPK, and you don't deal with him and instead you run into cover, you are not going to want to go back where you were. You will die. Not the case with DR.

I shall say, Templar, that the reason you get so much flack over here is because you are trying to help Codemasters. You cannot deny that they have shown abysmal customer support, quality assurance and business sense. OFP, as you know, was a great game. You honestly think that in any way, shape, or form, DR is a worthy successor to the game? I'd have thought given that ArmA II's mechanics are still very similar to OFP, that you would view ArmA II to be the true successor having played the original. We are annoyed at you because you are prolonging CM's bastardization of the OFP name with your content, something which they do not deserve at all for what they've produced.

However, you decided to invest your time into DR for some reason. That is very suspicious, and given your obvious contact with CM staff, on a level that is more than simply asking a question, getting an answer, and leaving. You sound very much like you are looking to get yourself within CM's leagues. Believe me, given CM's reputation, you want nothing to do with them, unless you want your reputation tarnished as well. But so long as you continue to try and help CM with DR, you will always be viewed this way over here.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Zipper5

[jw custom 56]

Leathal dont means smart !

Just because the hit you very fast, often with the first shot, dont means that this is a good AI.

Well if the enemy AI keeps killing you on skill 0.6 and your own AI is on skill 1.0 then you must be leading them wrong. Your AI should be more lethal than the enemy AI.

But again learning to command your AI takes a lot of practice and you will die over and over until you get the hang of it. Some people have the patience to learn it other moves on and blame the AI for being dumb.

[NoRailgunner 0]

AI in Arma2 should be improved - with the latest patch they have troubles to get back from stealth/danger into aware/safe behaviour. They're still not able to use their weapons or weapon systems properly. They still get stucked in crossroads or simply full-stop if a rabbit is crossing the street and circling in convoys and crash into preceding vehicles etc.

BIS ambitious games are really great but in some cases you can see that they arent that interested in military simulations.

CM developed a shooter game and advertising it with the "wrong" name ... and failed to convince people who like the original "Operation Flashpoint" game.

Cross fingers that BIS is working, fixing and improving Arma2 + OA. Perhaps someday we will see a real competitor. ;)

[wiggum2 31]

Well if the enemy AI keeps killing you on skill 0.6 and your own AI is on skill 1.0 then you must be leading them wrong. Your AI should be more lethal than the enemy AI.

But again learning to command your AI takes a lot of practice and you will die over and over until you get the hang of it. Some people have the patience to learn it other moves on and blame the AI for being dumb.

But 1.0 dosent make them smarter and i play better if i dont give them any commands...then they took out some enemys but in the most missions the enemy is in superior numbers or just in a better position or has much more firepower so you need a "smart" team, not just a team full of snipers.

Maybe you can do some video and show me/us how a real leader ( ;) ) command his team in a ArmA2 combat.

[Zipper5 74]

Maybe you can do some video and show me/us how a real leader ( ;) ) command his team in a ArmA2 combat.

You know, that's not a bad idea. I might just try that.

[wiggum2 31]

You know, that's not a bad idea. I might just try that.

That would sure be very interesting !

(no, that is no sarcasm)

[HotShot 0]

Good lord, this threads turned in to a masssive cluster fuck of bitching comments which appear to be going around in circles. Lets face it, everyone has their own entrenched ideas on the topic which shall not be changed, so everyone go have a hug and agree that we all loved the original Flashpoint, but since then things have been different.

[instagoat 133]

I´m not sure about the AI in either game being smarter than the other. At least the AI in DR seems to be consistent in its endeavours, from what I could see from playing the Demo. It´s not excellent, I´ve not seen them do anything particularily clever while playing the demo, and the way they pepper you with rounds while never hitting anything no matter the difficulty setting (who designed that anyway?) is turning them into cannon fodder unless they get really close or severely outnumber you.

In Arma, the AI has it´s moments of excellency, steady periods of non-noteworthy mediocricy and then downright attacks of stupidity. For example when I told my team to get out of their bradley, the turned around and started running against it instead of around it. When the bradley then turned to rejoin formation, it crunched all of them underneath its tracks. "Oh no, two is down...."

The only time the AI was absolutely consistent and clever was in Empty Wasteland, where you fight your way trough this village with the people you met. I think this was scripted, though: There was always somebody next to me, covering me, people are always observing their sectors, moving from cover to cover, without getting stuck, confused or even shot. I was the only one dying consistently in that mission, in ten or twelve retries I needed.

I would bet it´s scripted to be that way, even though I can´t say for sure as I´ve not dared touching the pbo for fear of spoiling it or something.

Vanilla, without scripts, the AI is still unable work with buildings on its own, it doesn´t change formations on the fly, it doesn´t re-arm itself without being told to, it still carelessly rounds corners and doesn´t recognize killzones, it doesn´t use smoke grenades, and it reacts slowly to threats. (Meaning, not to being shot at, but rather to having a tank appear on the scene. If nobody in the squad has an AT weapon, they will still hang around until half of them are shot before deciding to retreat, instead of clearing the field immediately.)

That the Arma 2 ai CAN work wonders, though, has been proven by a lot of Player made missions, and the EW campaign. It still needs aids for that, however.

My main reason for sticking with Arma 2 instead of any other game right now is the expandeabillity, and the sheer amount of things you can do using the mission editor. I can spend hours in Zelenogorsk playing a Dog and chasing cars, or trying to land AH-6s on the tip of the telecomms tower, or jogging around the countryside with SecOps and ACM on, to see how long I can manage to survive. All of these situations take seconds to set up, maybe half an hour if you want to fiddle around with the init.sqs a little bit.

To get the kind of range of things you can do In Arma in DR, a long time will have to pass. Aside from numerous dubious design choices, the awkward community support, and an apparently dull campaign and missionscape, the lack of new content, and the lack of things you can do are the biggest turndowns for me in DR.

That the AI in Arma 2 is dodgy sometimes, that the fps are low sometimes (though on average I get 10 fps more than with OFP:R in the same situation) or that it doesn´t have a proper physics engine is offset by all the other things it offers.

It even does moon phases, tides and the correct starscape for the location and time of year! The sky in OFP is just a repeating decal of stars... (which doesn´t matter, because you can´t seem to get rid of the compass anyway. Again, the design choices.). At least with BIS I know that as the game continues to be supported, it can and will only get better.

oh, And sorry for the massive post :O