Dragon Rising has been released

[jw custom 56]

But 1.0 dosent make them smarter and i play better if i dont give them any commands...then they took out some enemys but in the most missions the enemy is in superior numbers or just in a better position or has much more firepower so you need a "smart" team, not just a team full of snipers.

I'm not saying AI is perfect but i have no problems controlling them using a few commands. ArmA 2 is not a "put-your-head-under-your-arm" and run game, it takes planning, you can't just run towards the enemy and expect your AI team mates to do all the work.. YOU are the leader.

You might be able to storm a camp or whatever in DR without anybody in your team getting killed but that mostly won't work in ArmA 2.

Maybe you can do some video and show me/us how a real leader ( ;) ) command his team in a ArmA2 combat.

1. Why would i waste my time on people who already have set their mind. Take templar he couldn't even get his men out of a damn truck and that were enough to call it crap and leave.

2. I lead my men using simple commands like take cover, go prone, target that, hold fire, stealth etc etc but most of the work they do themself.

[bascule42 10]

Pff...this is getting stupid now. (Yeah, I know I'm guilty too).

This thread really needs to be put out of its misery, if a new one arise from the ashes, (Dragon Rising has been released Rising Thread maybe).

This thread needs to go. It's bringing out the worst in people. This community is better than this.

Let this thread die. It's diseased, it's mentally ill, it's developed a terminal illness. It's infested.

Kill this thread.

[joey_45 0]

But 1.0 dosent make them smarter and i play better if i dont give them any commands...then they took out some enemys but in the most missions the enemy is in superior numbers or just in a better position or has much more firepower

NEVER, and that means NEVER, start a (fire)fight when there is more enemy then you, YOU WILL LOSE, if they are in a better position then you, YOU WILL LOSE.

ie.

1] you are in a section [8 men] and you get engaged be 4 men, you return fire and flank them..

2] you are in a section and get engaged by 10 men, 2 more then you..

a. return fire and flank

b. run away......

3] you are in a section and get engaged by 15 men...

LEAVE OR YOU WILL DIE!

[svendejong 0]

This thread needs to go. It's bringing out the worst in people. This community is better than this.

Let this thread die. It's diseased, it's mentally ill, it's developed a terminal illness. It's infested.

Kill this thread.

x2, please close.

[Tonci87 163]

Comming to that, there is an Command option that I´m missing in Arma2.

Its called

RUN LIKE HELLS CHASING YOU

I remember Situations where I really needed to get to the extraction point before enemy Reinforcements arrive, but even if set in safe mode the Ai will go from cover to cover when spotting enemys and return fire on them.

I really hope BIS will someday implement this command

[Forrest Gimp 10]

You know, that's not a bad idea. I might just try that.

As a newbie, I would love to see a video of a pro going about it. I'm 30 hours into Arma 1 (play cold war rearmed at the moment), and I'm getting used to the commands, but I would still love to see what commands should be used when etc. My guys often end up dead with just myself left to finish the mission, and I'm even worse when it comes to leading tanks lol

[froggyluv 2133]

@Close requesters: Well it's as easy as say, not clicking on this thread :p

As far as flat out Infantry AI, I would have to agree with Templar that DR takes the edge. I've set up enough 30 vs 30 village fights and DR's AI do a better job of tight maneouvering and keeping a solid firing line on the attackers. I've seen some nice stuff in Arma2 but they're not as consistent.

As far as the other 99% of the games -Arma2 takes the cake hands down. Scale; units numbers and types; varied locations; moving your head; props such as animals and civilians for mission makers; stunning graphics; movement of things besides the enemy; real mods; real Dev. support and real patches; missions that mean anything and care factor.

Funny that although I'm primarily a SP infantry player, despite some cool moves by the AI in DR, I just don't care. The missions just feel dead to the bone and I have little to no anticipation what might be over that next ridge.

It's like I load up the game and hope it's going to be somehow different this time but never is -truly the definition of insanity.

Something worth adoring about Arma2 is how there’s a sense of gravity and heroism that’s built into the engine itself. No matter how ludicrous or ramshackle the mission, you can’t shake that slow pace, those sweeping landscapes, or the simple nature of the game as an immersive sim with no respawns, meaning something as dull as trekking through woodland or waiting for a team-mate to finish scouting ahead can be curiously riveting.

This is Arma2’s party piece; the burning unease and adrenaline that comes from simply not knowing what’s going on or what’s going to happen. A kind of idiocy blues

-Rock, Paper, Shotgun.

...sums it up quite nicely methinks :)

Edited January 7, 2010 by froggyluv

[Placebo 29]

CM were within rights to use the name flashpoint, we could argue for days whether they actually should have.

Yes they were, they weren't however entitled to push their game as a sequel to our Operation Flashpoint, yet they constantly did, they weren't however entitled to imply that they created Operation Flashpoint, yet they constantly did, those two constant "slight of hands" are what has left a bad taste for many, many gamers and is essentially the primary reason why users of this other game are often met with less than open arms here and elsewhere, dishonesty leads to distrust.

[joey_45 0]

Sometimes war is slow paced.

[Placebo 29]

ok, boy I cant wait for the smart ass comments your all going to throw at this one!

Singleplayer plain old sucks.

Singplayer sucks because the AI is terrible. they get stuck, they ignore people being shot right next to them, even when they should have full morale, they often dont do what you tell em, or they decide they should do something else first.

death animations look like something out of a cartoon

did I mention singleplayer sucks? thats the main reason I dont like, I dont give a flying shit about multiplayer, I dont wanna play multiplayer

If you cannot post in a constructive manner I will help you find your way to forums more suited for your interests.

[Scrub 0]

'Can't we all just get along?' lol.

Since we all have been talking about the items that differ, that stink, and are generally opposing views pitted against the other game, how about something different:

How about what we DO like about the other game. Forgoing the scandalous un-pleasantries that Placebo detailed in full.

I can even do this and my copy of DR is used literally as a coaster because I won't sell it to any other unfortunate soul. I'll start.

Not hanging on some quirks in the system (having to stop, limited functions and such), what I can appreciate about Dragon rising is the interface. Needs some work, but the radial is fairly reflexive. Would be nice if it also used the number scheme so it could be voice activated and expanded on by modders, but that is another story... Also, some of the voice acting I thought was very well done. Of course, some not so much.

Phew! That wasn't too hard..

[wiggum2 31]

NEVER, and that means NEVER, start a (fire)fight when there is more enemy then you, YOU WILL LOSE, if they are in a better position then you, YOU WILL LOSE.

ie.

1] you are in a section [8 men] and you get engaged be 4 men, you return fire and flank them..

2] you are in a section and get engaged by 10 men, 2 more then you..

a. return fire and flank

b. run away......

3] you are in a section and get engaged by 15 men...

LEAVE OR YOU WILL DIE!

In nearly all missions i played in ArmA2 the enemy is in superior numbers. Thats nothing bad because it is done to give you a real challange.

[joey_45 0]

4] out wit.

[jw custom 56]

Okay i'll go next:

I can even do this and my copy of DR is used literally as a coaster because I won't sell it to any other unfortunate soul. I'll start.

LMFAO :p

[Stryker_1 10]

I find the AI comparison interesting. Any PC game (or Console) AI is prone to non sensical behavior. DR has nothing notable here, it behaves like a typical action FPS. The AI in ARMA II is different somehow. It's not perfect and there are occasions where you think, hmmmm OK, that was f'd up. I have racked in lots of hours with ARMA II and there have been a lot of memorable moments where the AI has resembled something believable. AI programming has a long way to go. I've enjoyed the challenge that goes with ARMA II and when I get challenged, there is a sense of accomplishment. I found DR to be boring since I figured out the AI flaws pretty quick and I was then able to the run and gun and finish missions with ease. Anyway, these are computer games and I've always expect retarded behavior from the AI. The question is, does any of these games have their moments. ARMA II has had several for me.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Stryker_1

[Zipper5 74]

The only thing I liked about DR, apart from the fire on my lead command, was how well it ran when maxed out. However, it looked crap, and only performed well because it was a console port.

So in that case, I guess I didn't like anything in the game apart from the fire on my lead command. :butbut:

[joey_45 0]

The AI in Arma is not scripted to some point unlike other games out there [COD/MOH... does not count cos it's not AI]

[froggyluv 2133]

I find the AI comparison interesting. Any PC game (or Console) AI is prone to non sensical behavior. DR has nothing notable here, it behaves like a typical action FPS. .

I would say yes and no on that. For instance, yesterday I was messing around in DR's editor and set me and my squad near a broken down fortress area (with 2 levels) with enemy AI coming in from all sides. Once i spotted an enemy AI squad coming in, I told my squad to simply Assault that squad and was surprised to see 1 of my guys climb to the second level of the fortress using a certain level of cover while the other 2 advanced and attacked pretty well. The shootouts however, were more like Star Wars with that 'shield of dispersion' going on which I thought was kinda lame.

That would be nothing for a walled corridor shooter but it's not bad for an unscripted mission.

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

OK I'm skipping most of the posts because they are nonsens flame war. I'm picking Wiggum again because I think it's possible to discuss with him in very good way :D

But 1.0 dosent make them smarter and i play better if i dont give them any commands...then they took out some enemys but in the most missions the enemy is in superior numbers or just in a better position or has much more firepower so you need a "smart" team, not just a team full of snipers.

True! Finally a DR player who has unterstand a very important AI setup thing in ArmA II. Setting AI skill to 1 (basicly the same as using setSkill 1 in missions or setting the skill of preplaced AI in the editor) doesn't make them smarter. From what I've learned it makes them faster, more precise. Some people should have a look at the setSkill array. setSkill influences all of the values as far as I have noticed. However I noticed AI pilots having skill set at 1 are flying a little bit better than pilots having a skill of 0. I guess it's because of the faster reaction time. AI with lower skill will have more problems locating/hearing the player behind houses, in bushes, behind trees and so on. In my missions I'm setting special forces, vehicle drivers and pilots to high skill, trained soldiers to normal skill and recruit soldiers, soldiers with a story-based low morale, some resistance fighters and armed civilians to a lower skill.

When it comes to the "action" i prefer DR...because in my opinion it faster with more drive. But other people will see this different.

I may say yes, but a few minutes ago we had a fancy fire fight lasting for 60 minutes! My USMC squad (8 human players) had to hold the Devils Castle for 60 minutes waiting for reinforcements. The enemy threw a lot of units against us. It was a nonstop killing/suppression action. However it was no hollywood disaster. We placed mines to slow the enemy down f.e. so there was no direct confrontation in the first place. Snipers were on the top of the tower, a medic was very busy in supporting wounded players, machine gunners guarded the rest of the area. It was wow to clarify it in one word.

In nearly all missions i played in ArmA2 the enemy is in superior numbers. Thats nothing bad because it is done to give you a real challange.

Do you mean all BI missions or all community missions or both? A few weeks ago I created a mission where the player is a simple civilian who joins resistance forces after russian troops killed all civilians in the home town. There were only 1 T-90 and 1 squad of russian soldiers. After a while they get reinforcements via Kamaz. However I managed to keep the player busy for at least 15 minutes, leaving him no option to respawn or revive this time. At the end you'll get a wow feeling ... simple farmers had won against the mighty 58th army.

I couldn't set up such things in Dragon Rising. There are no civilians, right? Are there russian forces in Dragon Rising? I goes not?! There're only two factions right!?

[Second 0]

I would say yes and no on that. For instance, yesterday I was messing around in DR's editor and set me and my squad near a broken down fortress area (with 2 levels) with enemy AI coming in from all sides. Once i spotted an enemy AI squad coming in, I told my squad to simply Assault that squad and was surprised to see 1 of my guys climb to the second level of the fortress using a certain level of cover while the other 2 advanced and attacked pretty well. The shootouts however, were more like Star Wars with that 'shield of dispersion' going on which I thought was kinda lame.

That would be nothing for a walled corridor shooter but it's not bad for an unscripted mission.

Yup. It uses cover rather well and infact is just about as script free as ArmA2 AI is.

One flaw about it's cover usage: It's probably not as accurate as ArmA2's centimeter system is. I've tested it and AI seems to register chest-throat height to be critical level where it will change it's stance to lower one, it seems to be bit random so i guess i don't understand it completely. Sometimes it seems to be in eye or even helmet high. It's not that bad with iron sights... But most firearms are having some x3 or higher scope and it is simple to gain head shots to 200 meters :mad: (if i want to have higher difficulty for game i don't use any scopes). There are problems in firing thru windows, probably frames are blocking their Line-of-fire and also line-of-sight too. They are sometimes totally unable to fire from house, but seem to be able to do it more when they fire into house! Which is damn shame!

One problem with removing shield of dispression is that it will make firefight very lethal. So it has possibility to reach difficulty like ArmA2 would be with 1.0 skill and 1.0 in configs for AI. Now we add OFDR's idea for using suppressive fire which commonly is very heavy volume of fire with somewhat dropped accuracy... Without dispression shield it becomes Doom's Hammer! I've seen whole squads being erazed in matter of seconds when shield gets removed from game!

Tweaking isn't most simple thing with as there are various variables which affects total accuracy. Compared to ArmA2 i think there are twice the amount of stuff involved along whole morale model (suppression, own injuries, how buddies are doing or are they dead and so on). One important thing to note is that AI in OFDR usually is under some amount of suppression, it seems to start from around 6 close-bys depending of skill level and can be kept up with rather low volume of fire. It's rather easy for one guy with rifle to keep one or even two AI's suppressed for longish times. Usually both sides are more or less suppressed after first seconds of combat. Yeah they aren't that accurate even unsuppressed, but seems to be able to kill me (mostly exposed) with averagely 2/3 spent magazine from 100 meters :p

Templar had good ongoing project with it and it sure was education to study those files. I managed to tweak them bit on my own, but soon understood that it requires bit more thought than i though it would. Then came 1st patch and killed my motivation to get deeper into it :) (thank you codemasters!)

I personally would like to keep current way, maybe make them bit more accurate against each of other. But would raise difficulty for player quite much so that player has to use cover and has to preserve he's life. That way it would be more engaging experience for player but would keep firefights long and wouldn't twist game to suppression-overpower (aka firepower kills them all). Right now AI has good changes on getting into cover and after that it (usually) has to be dealed with either movement into flanks or even assaults, pure firepower won't cut it very fastly of effectively... Or by player taking head shots with scoped rifle :)

Edited January 7, 2010 by Second

[jw custom 56]

True! Finally a DR player who has unterstand a very important AI setup thing in ArmA II. Setting AI skill to 1 (basicly the same as using setSkill 1 in missions or setting the skill of preplaced AI in the editor) doesn't make them smarter. From what I've learned it makes them faster, more precise. Some people should have a look at the setSkill array. setSkill influences all of the values as far as I have noticed. However I noticed AI pilots having skill set at 1 are flying a little bit better than pilots having a skill of 0. I guess it's because of the faster reaction time. AI with lower skill will have more problems locating/hearing the player behind houses, in bushes, behind trees and so on. In my missions I'm setting special forces, vehicle drivers and pilots to high skill, trained soldiers to normal skill and recruit soldiers, soldiers with a story-based low morale, some resistance fighters and armed civilians to a lower skill.

Only one mentioning smarter was wiggum, i said leathal.

I'm reffering to the settings in the .ArmA2Profile

skillEnemy=0.7;

precisionEnemy=0.7;

Which does affect the units. The setSkill slider in the editor does not have much effect nor does many of the setSkill array commands.

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/4483

[wiggum2 31]

@ Legislator

Yes, there are only the USMC and the PLA. Maybe there are some locked units deep inside the code that will get unlocked with a DLC but i dont know.

And i know Coop is lot of fun in ArmA2, but imagine the same sittuation but with 1 human and 7 KI...ah better not. :D

Hey, where can i download your mission ?

I would like to try it.

[froggyluv 2133]

@Second - It's always going to be tough to find a legitimate way to keep a game realistically lethal, yet give the AI a chance to survive, especially if there are character NPC's. I don't like dispersion shields, yet I didn't really like the invincible NPC's in the EW campaign either, as I feel that hurts the sandbox integrity of a mission.

Ideally, high-skilled AI would actually be more precise with things like exacting cover, gauging the enemy's strength, advanced suppresion techniques, tactical retreat, and enhanced marksmanship. Personally, I wouldn't mind if they had a slightly enhanced armour (no arcade bosses!) and perhaps a better chance of being wounded rather than killed.

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

Which does affect the units. The setSkill slider in the editor does not have much effect nor does many of the setSkill array commands.

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/4483

Interesting ... didn't even know there's an issue. :confused: I didn't notice anything weird ... strange.

Yes, there are only the USMC and the PLA.

Ah that's very sad. When I first heard of Dragon Rising there were at least russian units promised. Having only two factions without the possibility of adding more is another killing feature of Dragon Rising for me. In ArmA II you've got 4 sides, 6 factions, not counting the community addons. It offers a very wide scale of mission settings, alliance possibilities and switching side effects. Imagine the mission forces you to deliver an ammo truck to terrorist forces or they blow up a building. But if you follow their order another faction could rise up against you. Even the original Operation Flashpoint had 4 factions. Two are definately not enough. There have to be at least 3 factions to set up different alliances.

Even if there'll be russian units for Dragon Rising some day, who's gonna pay for them? And why? In the Bohemia Saga you'll get new vehicles sometimes via patch without paying for it. Operation Flashpoint, ArmA and ArmA II have proven that. Codemasters really shouldn't take money from their players to deliver a little bit more content. Publishing addon packages or standalone addons is ok if the content has an equal price (up to 15 €/$ for a commercial addon, up to 30 €/$ for a standalone addon) delivering new units, missions, campaigns, engine features, etc.

CM takes money for Xbox avatars (If I'm right!?), but why? It's useless stuff. Even smoking a cigarette would be more productive than that. This company had made some really strange decissions.

Hey, where can i download your mission ?

I would like to try it.

You can't download it yet. It'll be in a mission package some day. I'm collecting a whole bunch of missions which are fitting into smaller story arcs creating a whole mp campaign at the end all together. It's a lot of work and I'll release an update for part 1 of the campaign and the missions for part 2 first. The mission I mentioned is in part 3 of my campaign allowing the player to be farmer, forest (or forest ranger?), mercenary, chernarussian cop, gangster ... I'm even planning a mission where you'll get a task from an old lady to find her missing husband. :D Keep an eye in these forums. It'll take some months but one day they're gonna be released. I just like to test missions for weeks or months before releasing them. I don't like rush releases - ironical words from an armaholic lol

Edited January 7, 2010 by [GLT] Legislator

[Bulldogs 10]

read the responses after someone says they dont like it

"you just need to play it different"

That was my comment for if you don't like ArmA 2 and if you don't like DR. For each game you need to play it a different way and you need to like playing that different way as each game is completely different. Some people prefer realism and simulation. Some people prefer atmosphere and action. Both enjoy tactics.

---------- Post added at 10:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 AM ----------

I think the way this topic is going, if we can stop flaming each other we could come up with a good list of suggestions for both BIS and CM (and see who carries about 10% of those suggestions).

For the CM list I'd say having the ability to remove or lowering the shield of accuracy would be a big one.