Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[R3vo 2654]

I actually thought with overhauling they ment a few tweaks here and there, maybe one or two new animations and new script commands for better configuration. Unfortunately I was wrong. The only parts about the old system which I disliked was the rate at which a character fatigued and the fact that mission designers and modders had no way of influencing the system via script commands.

 

In addition I don't understand why we have got a stamina bar NOW. As mentioned above, the stamina bar would have added more clarity to the old system and would have made it easier to manage the fatigue.

 

To be honest, I hope you have some further improvements for this system, otherwise, as hard as this sounds for the devs who have spend their time on this, scrap that whole thing and bring back the old system and implement all the things mentioned in this thread.

 

Edit:

 

Script commands I'd see:

 

- a multiplier for weapon sway

- a multiplier for the over fatigue rate

- a command to disable fatigue completely ( Even after respawn)

- a multiplier for the effect of the inventory weight

[Electricleash 133]

What I can't seem to find is any place/forum/noticeboard/reddit/whatever, where these supposed people who complained about the previous system and who prompted these changes, have posted they're feedback...

[heavygunner 179]

Please burn the new system and throw the remaining parts in a deep hole.

It sucks.

[tillee 48]

The new system really only caters the KotH and Life Arcade Crowd.
The old system was authentic and really supported the slower pace of this game.
The new system is not at all what we need.

Please,don't change it for the changes sake.

[en3x 209]

What I can't seem to find is any place/forum/noticeboard/reddit/whatever, where these supposed people who complained about the previous system and who prompted these changes, have posted they're feedback...

That were my thoughts as well - It mentions feedback tracker couple of times - where can I see comments on feedback tracker that mattered?

I think forums should primary source on getting public opinion no rather then specific server admins, modders, designers.(I'm saying specific

because I don't know where did you guys collected feedback)

[supercereal4 29]

This new stamina system has really caused me to reflect on the old fatigue system. Obviously I think the old system is far superior, but apparently a lot of people saw the need for change. That's fine. Looking back, I can concede that maybe it would have been nice to be able to sprint for a few seconds longer, or maybe not get as fatigued as fast. But these are just simple changes to the old system's values. I think that just that alone could have satisfied whomever it was who was begging for a new system (I've been here since the beginning and I have never seen these people).

 

I am still holding out hope that this new system will be scrapped entirely and that perhaps  the old system gets some values tweaking here and there.... but I guess you can keep the stamina bar for the newbies.

[Variable 322]

Just wondering, all those 

 

scenario designers, modders and admins confirmed our suspicions that the system was not transparent enough for some

Who are they? Where is their feedback? Non of the server admins I know has been contacted, the server admins Skype group chat has no indication of any dis-consent, and I don't see any negative feedback on the forums regarding problems with the fatigue system, so where is this statement coming from? Please explain that, because now this is also a trust issue, and not only a terrible, terrible design decision that the BI team made, probably to appease the "casual" Life crowed on the expense of its core player base that is loyal to the franchise for 15 years.

[fareast 20]

grab your pitchforks guys..if this make it to stable im gonna be so pissed

[Electricleash 133]

I hope to have a revert, however if the final decision has been made and we are stuck with the new system then there is one key thing that needs to happen:

 

Jogging should absolutely NOT regain stamina.

 

It should either have the player continue to lose stamina at a slower rate or at the very least pause the stamina loss/gain like the tactical pace.

The player must have to stop or at least move at a walk to regain stamina again.

 

This is the absolute single factor that defines the speed at which ARMA is played, and as such the above should remain default.

 

For the anonymous part of the community these changes were apparently made, there should be a difficulty option to define whether jogging regains or loses stamina.

 

I've been part of this community for over 8 years, I'm not a prolific poster but I tend to do so when there's something important at stake, and at the risk of sounding dramatic, this has the potential to rock the boat...

[Variable 322]

Jogging should absolutely NOT regain stamina.

 

Don't lose faith guys. BIS, we demand that

1. Jogging shall REDUCE stamina!!!

2. Player could not pack more than the allowed capacity

[Alwarren 2767]

Jogging should absolutely NOT regain stamina.

Fully agreed. I'd go a step further and say that jogging MUST lower stamina. At the VERY LEAST there should be an option to enable/disable this. I can imagine that some Life servers want to get rid of Fatigue/Stamina, but if so why the HELL do you have to penalize the other, military players that want to have the fatigue in? Seriously, why?

[-Coulum- 35]

Sorry devs, I hate to put down your hard work but

What the fuck...?

You can run in crouch stance with any gear, indefinitely. Do I even need to go further?

At least we have a stamina bar now. Not that we need it with this horseshit system.

 

Why not simply make this current system to Recruit or even Standard but add Realistic Encumbered to Veteran and above.

This.

Sorry but I'm really, really not liking this... Just thinking about it makes me shiver. The old system wasn't perfect no doubt, but it was SO much better than what we had in arma 2. And now we are pretty much back to arma 2. But with a stamina bar and varied limitation on sprint time. Why are you going backwards?!

[Neviothr 102]

In my opinion the newly introduced stamina system is a change for the worse. Making so you only get tired when running is a change that takes away from ArmA's mil-sim experience, this game isn't meant to be forgiving, it's meant to be punishing, carry weight and stamina are one of may ways to provide a more realistic experience. How tried you get is affected by everything, from how much you're carrying, whether you are in combat or not, injuries, etc. Fatigue should also be depended on which faction the player is on. Here are a number of notes on the fatigue system:

 

1. Fatigue should be applied to the player whether he is walking or running, while running fatigue should obliviously be applied to a much greater extent. Basically the old system in this case.

 

2. Implementing adrenaline into the equation, if a player in a combat situation (engaging or being engaged), running should be quicker, less punishing and easier for both shorter and longer distances. A downside of this addition would be post combat stress, the adrenaline level would go down, making the player more prone to fatigue after combat, more tried then he was before the combat started.

 

3. Bulkiness. Depending on what and how much equipment a player is carrying, will have an effect on movement speed, fatigue, and range of movement. A light infantry man should be able to do a wider range of movements and stances than a man who is carrying a rocket launcher. This could be expressed in a while such as preventing 'heavier' players from doing advanced stances, or by simply punishing them for doing so, whether be it by slow increasing their fatigue or weapon sway, for example.

 

4. Injuries. I find this point to be a mix between fatigue and AI behavior, so it might side track a bit, as the too topic are closely connected. First of all let's talk about how AI reacts to injuries: not very well, to say the least, the flinching is extremely unrealistic. Both player and AI need to react to be redone on how they react to injuries. Separating different injury types can greatly improve the experience. I'll explain a number of basic types of injuries how IMO the AI and player should react to them.

 

A. Let's start with hearing related injuries, currently, besides hearing gunfire, movement and vehicles, the AI doesn't seem to be affected by sounds too much, I came up with simple way to change that:

Take the 4 main factions, BLUFOR (an organized modern military force), OPFOR (same as BLUFOR), IND (a more ill equipped military force) and GUR (self explanatory, really), add hearing damage from heavy gunfire, earplugs, a bit of randomization and some common sense. If a unit is near a tank, a heavy .50 machine gun or 30mm grande launcher without hearing protection, it should cause non-lethal, but nevertheless a non-neglectable type of damage such as loss of focus for distance objects and head sway to simulate ear pain. Now the randomization part, BLUFOR and OPFOR, being a very organized and well equipped military force, will have a very low chance of spawning/being without earplugs, IND, being a slightly less equipped force, will have a slightly higher chance of spawning/being without earplugs, lastly GUR, the guerrilla force will have a very high chance of being without ear protection. This could lead to new tactics due to the fact that GUR will have to place/move heavy gun installations away from large groups of friendlys in order to avoid injuries.

 

B. Reaction to shrapnel, gunshot and more serious injuries. I'll start by saying that this requites another change, multiple first-aid uses. Depending on the type of wound, the player/AI will use a part of their first-aid package in order to treat the given wound, for example, if a unit is hit by a backblast from a rocket firing, it will be knocked back, get a nasty bruise and will be disabled for a short period of time, the unit can then use a part of their first-aid package in order to treat that would, but also have supplies left in the first-aid in order to treat other more serious or minor injuries, a good thing to do would also be to add a little info box when hovering the the first-aid in the inventory which will hint on the type of injuries that you're able to treat with that first-aid.

Shrapnel wounds would also need to be separated into 2 categories, environmental shrapnel (such as rocks ricocheting and breaking off when a bullet hit them), and 'man-made' shrapnel (such as buildings). Steal shrapnel from 'man-made' things will cause a little bit of bleeding, and a stability penalty to the part it hit, it would be very easy to treat and shouldn't requite a full first-aid package.

Gunshot wounds (I'll be talking about 5.56, 7.62 and 6.5mm calibers) would cause a lot of bleeding and will requite a large portion of a first-aid package in order to stabilize the wound until a combat live saver in able to assist further.

Gunshots to protected areas, however, will cause big bruises and medium shrapnel, they should require a decent a part of a first-aid package to stabilize for a long period of time.

[pettka 694]

The fatigue to stamina overhaul was not an easy task - it took several months of prototyping and internal discussions, together with various tests of proofs of concept. We came to the decision to change the fatigue system based on many factors, some of them already described in OPREP and posts here, some not yet mentioned. Did you know that most of MANW entries had fatigue disabled for all units by default?

 

The system basics are easy, but it's deeper than it seems - the scripting commands provided with new stamina make it easy to create a different system, possibly even similar to fatigue, that is going to work according to creators needs. That's a huge step forward compared to fatigue, which either was there or not.

 

We believe, and our tests have shown us, that the stamina system rewards tactical use of load, environment and tempo - it's always better for both the mobility and aiming precision to fight fresh, without unnecessary weight and in a suitable environment. And the best part we have seen is that players (be it experts or fresh recruits) understand the system, its limitations and the ways it punishes them for non-tactical decisions. But we might have been wrong in our conclusions, or even their parts. We are glad for all the feedback, which we are going to evaluate, and there may be some tweaks to stamina system. The general gain in transparency of the system is great and it's seen even in the reactions - while some factors of fatigue were subject of urban myths, the new stamina is generally understood at least on some theoretical level.

 

I would like to encourage to give it a proper try, not in some lab environment of detailed measurement in virtual reality, but in real games, be it missions, campaign or any game mode. From the experience we have gathered during the development, the actual feel is different from expectations based on explanations :icon_twisted: Some of You have already done so, and we aim to gather as much feedback as possible. Thank You for caring about Arma 3 - we are making the game together.

[Jona33 51]

Even in the default campaign it's worse-take Within Reach, the mission in Adapt where you have to cause a diversion on Stratis. With the previous version you had a trade off, with only 3 people do you want to gear yourself up with plenty of ammo and AT, but struggle with the fact that the south of stratis is very hilly, and you'll have to move slowly up the hills. You even had to plan your route better, e.g. getting to the highest of your targets first, then kicking things off so that you didn't have to struggle up hill when you were being chased by the enemy. Now though, it makes not a blind bit of difference,  you can take everything you've got and all you've got to worry about is reduced sprint capability. To be honest the latest changes have managed to completely negate taking the terrain into account when you're moving. You may as well just go as the crow flies because it doesn't really matter.

[bad benson 1733]

That's a huge step forward compared to fatigue, which either was there or not.

 

judging by the reactions it might've been better to just provide more control over the old system via more and more detaled script commands. but i haven't tested the new system yet myself so i can't tell if it's really that bad. i just hope that you guys created more hooks and control not only for us but for yourself to be able to tweak more than just magnitude but also the logic of things.

 

The system basics are easy, but it's deeper than it seems - the scripting commands provided with new stamina make it easy to create a different system, possibly even similar to fatigue, that is going to work according to creators needs.

 

please make sure to provide full control over sway too so it is theoretically possible to create any type of system one would want. as long as all actual effects on the player can be tweaked, disabled and triggered manually this could be something that can actually add a lot rather than creating a void for some people since it would allow a a huge variety of different approaches since i'm pretty sure that the wide use of "player enablefatigue false" was probably not mostly due to wishing to have no fatigue at all but not having the time to tediously overwrite the system and force a new one inside the game.

 

the thing i'm worried about most currently (mostly lack of knowledge and hands on expereince of the new thing) is loss of the ability to control fatigue/stamina based on animation/movement type. is this going to survive the change in some form?

[VanZant 48]

Be rid of slowed animations has been a great advance, and overall the system is not bad, but somehow it is absolutely necessary to punish walking and normal running. Maybe one restores the stamina slower, and the other nothing at all, or something similar. Of course all of this infuenced by load, stance, ...

Months? Come on ... <_<

[DancZer 65]

I don't know what to say. People whose disabled the previous system will disable this too because they don't want any kind of restrictions. That doesn't mean that the current system is wrong. It's because these players don't want to play Arma as a military shooter game.

 

I think degrading the game isn't the way where BI should go with Arma. We love this game because it's different(if you like, more natural) than other games. 

 

We asked for stanimabar for the current system and you said NO. Now we will have, but the current system will be removed?! Don't you think that people can't adapt the current system, because they didn't know how the fatigue change? I mean, when I started playing KOTH, it was SuperB to see how the stamina change and I learned how to manage it pretty fast.

 

The new system is....easy.

 

Edit: I vote for the current system + the new HUD for stamina.

Edit2: My fiancée advice: Add energy drink into the game and leave the current system. :)

 

Please don't remove it completely. At least make the current system optional and put fatigue setting into the game option just as the flight model. Removing it force us to use mods for better realism and this shrink the available games. Moreover, players whose disabled the current system probably will disable this too. I think there is no good outcome if you remove the current system.

[rübe 127]

Did you know that most of MANW entries had fatigue disabled for all units by default?

And why is that? Did this boil down to some specific aspect/side-effect of fatigue? Or was disabling fatigue just the simplest way to get to a "polished" product for the contest (...who knows, maybe because fatigue came a bit late to the party, and mission designers had not adapted yet?)? Did this depend on the category (sp vs. mp), or maybe some other criterium (pve vs. pvp)?

 

Either way, I don't think that it's fair to look at fatigue from this point of view. It was a contest. Fatigue was (and obviously still is) a new thing. And AI looks rather stupid now, because they (still) have no concept of fatigue - certainly not on a group level.

 

We came to the decision to change the fatigue system based on many factors [...], some not yet mentioned.

So... just how crucial was AI, or the unwillingness to fix the AI (w.r.t. fatigue), here?

 

The system basics are easy, but it's deeper than it seems - the scripting commands provided with new stamina make it easy to create a different system, possibly even similar to fatigue, that is going to work according to creators needs. That's a huge step forward compared to fatigue, which either was there or not.

I'd argue good defaults are more important than the option to screw things up as one pleases.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Be rid of slowed animations has been a great advance, and overall the system is not bad, but somehow it is absolutely necessary to punish walking and normal running. Maybe one restores the stamina slower, and the other nothing at all, or something similar. Of course all of this infuenced by load, stance, ...

Months? Come on ... <_<

 

I think it is not smart to punish walking. IMO in the context of A3, walking should be 'free' regardless of load. Also, for lightly-equipped soldiers (under 10kg of gear) I believed the running over flat terrain should be significant distance, measured in Km not m.

 

Perhaps a willingness to fine tune the variables/factors while its on dev branch is a good idea. The system may be better but I think members here have touched upon that perhaps the factors are not quite suitable. Of course you're receiving feedback from a tiny and vocal minority of the A3 community here, so the preferences of others have to be considered as well.

 

As long as the fatigue configuration is still on the table and not set in stone, I think that is good.

 

It is most telling when Pettka said almost all MANW entries had fatigue disabled. Not a surprise to me and indeed even today most public servers have fatigue disabled.

 

Why design a system which no one uses?

 

The default system should have decent penetration in the community, with of course the ability for more niche users to tune it to their desired levels. I just thought the standard fatigue was too high given the standard equipment A3 likes to equip players with, and in the context of 90% of missions.

 

I will still likely disable fatigue for AI (their movement is erratic as it is, and they dont have a stamina bar ;) )but hopefully can enable for players without having them scatter to the 4 winds in search of fatigue-less servers.

[m101 1]

I liked the original fatigue system more. Realism is the way to go.

[aliascartoons 182]

If you going to implement this new stamina/fatigue system at least please make it optional so we can choose in between.

Thank you!

 

If i'd want to play an arcade game i'd do it, but i don't, i want to play ARMA. 

[DancZer 65]

Not a surprise to me and indeed even today most public servers have fatigue disabled.

Give us numbers, and don't count the wasteland, combie apocalypse, simcity, gta styles please. They won't use the new system either. No matter what. If you can disable it, they will. And that is why BI decided to rework it.

[old_painless 182]

Of course the MANW missions had fatigue disabled, the fatigue feature was under development and constantly being tuned/rebalanced during the time where the MANW contestants had to develop their missions.

 

As someone said above, all the old system needed was a stamina bar/visual aid to help people adapt, in order not to become "confused". So cudos for putting that in finally.

 

But BI should make the old system optional, like the two flight model choices we have now. Call it Advanced Fatigue or something.

 

In light of how AI copes with fatigue, I suggest that there should be an option to toggle which (of the two) fatigue system is affecting the AI and which affect players. Everybody can then set things up to their liking

[McGregor_CiA 19]

I have only tried the dev branch for a little bit but I have to say that I hate the new system. The old one was great! This one just feels like CoD or something. You were on the right path and now it just feels like you undo all that work just to cater to the casual wasteland players. Is this the beginning of the end?