"Opening up Arma 3 to paid user-made content" - How?

[Wiki 1558]

I agree with a "donate" button - rather than making usermade content to be paid.

[fitzee 7]

why does everyone assume that individual addons would cost money? BIS knows addons are making their game last longer, so THEY are willing to pay for some addons, either in order to give the particular modder the incentive needed to create more content (or features or whatever), or to get some of those addons together in a DLC, that would

I really don't understand the whole craze over Maruk's statement tbh.

Hi.

I'm wondering if you have some kind of inside-information about this?

Since They have included modders content in previous DLC's, I don't see why he would have even made this announcement.

With the ever-growing amount of games that charge more money for EVERY individual piece of content, I don't find it all that far-fetched to think they would like to charge a small amount for any mod people would like to release.

Still, I don't know, which is why I ask.

I guess this is the problem with making such a vague announcement.

regards.

[PuFu 4600]

I agree with a "donate" button - rather than making usermade content to be paid.

How many times have you donated thus far towards addons you have downloaded and used?

Hi.

I'm wondering if you have some kind of inside-information about this?

Since They have included modders content in previous DLC's, I don't see why he would have even made this announcement.

With the ever-growing amount of games that charge more money for EVERY individual piece of content, I don't find it all that far-fetched to think they would like to charge a small amount for any mod people would like to release.

Still, I don't know, which is why I ask.

I guess this is the problem with making such a vague announcement.

regards.

No inside on this particular quote of maruk's i am afraid.

I guess i'll wait and see the particulars of the system BI wants in, but i am sure that is for 2014 and not sooner anyways

[Varanon 892]

I'm wondering how this ties in with the supporter edition and the promise of getting any DLC (if any). Will that include paid DLC made by the community ? I assume no, but would be nice to know.

[Smurf 12]

Before getting into paid content, the "Workshop x Addons" must be solved first, both on legal and technical sides. And there is A3 to be completed yet.

I'm afraid that this discussion could put a hold on mod making....

[Wiki 1558]

How many times have you donated thus far towards addons you have downloaded and used?

None, never seen any maker asking for reward.

Otherwise, I would have donate for mods I consider very good.

The question can be returned:

how many times have I received something for the missions and campaigns I released to the community?

[Primarch 10]

How many times have you donated thus far towards addons you have downloaded and used?

No inside on this particular quote of maruk's i am afraid.

I guess i'll wait and see the particulars of the system BI wants in, but i am sure that is for 2014 and not sooner anyways

Donating is too hard at the moment. I buy games from Steam, because I can not be assed to installing all patches and stuff.

Give me an easy way to donate (I will not log into any site just to donate), and I'll give what I deem right for the quality.

My Steam Wallet has tons of money that I'd donate if I had an easy way of donating it.

[chrisb 196]

Its naïve to think BIS would simply keep buying work from mod makers and not pass that cost along to the player, just isn’t going to work that way. Ultimately if this is the way BIS intend to go (and why not plant the seed;)), the cost will be passed along and the player will have to pay for certain mod/addons if BIS deems fit to pass the quality of those mod/addons. Of course that would be the players choice to buy the mod/addon or not. I would be willing to pay for these extras if needed, it maybe be a way forward with the Steam issue etc.

What surprises me is, I knew/thought the game (A3) was heading in a different direction and indeed, for me, it has, but the whole concept of the series might be going that way to. Certainly it makes sense to bring your business more in-line with the trend perhaps, that’s get the players to pay for quality things that addon to your game, no problem with that from a business point of view or indeed a players point of view either.

But, I would have thought it better to perhaps simply state ‘we want to bring the business more in-line with mainstream gaming’ and have done with it. We know that other game devs charge for extras, its not a ‘wrong’ thing to do, but just say, it would put the community more at ease with this new direction. Mod makers could perhaps talk to BIS discuss, plan or whatever.

This community has possibly some of the best mod/addon makers out there, doing it for free, why not build the series and change its direction a little, it could hammer some other games into the ground, just needs grabbing by the b***’s and doing.

Regards mod/addons:

If its great, expect to pay for it.

If its good, why not donate.

If you don't like it, don't have it.

None of this is hard to understand, just needs clarifying a little, only BIS can do that, its their game after all.

Just my point of view.:)

Note:

Iron Front, could have been great, it was as a game, but the growth potential that was thrown away, was a sin. I know it was not directly a BIS thing, but..

Dayz! wise to take that under wing and progress it.

There are; mutants, aliens, zombies, ww2, ww1, new worlds, etc, etc all out there being worked on for this game format. Why not develop the great parts. The players, old and new, love the openness of the game playing experience, why not gain from that more.

[EvEnLeaSe44 0]

I actually hope this does not happen. The community is already separated by mods, but to separate it by PAID mods would be outrageous.

Want to get paid doing something you like? Get a job doing it or add a donate button on your mod page, don't punish your fans.

[tortuosit 486]

Paid user made content: Oh no please don't. This would lead to frictions between modders. We already have it (increasing!) between developers and modders (the question if developers do enough or if they rely on modders too much). I don't like the direction ArmA is going. I want developers who do their job and users who happily contribute for free with all their love for the product. Money will destroy a lot. I don't want money to rule my free time.

I actually hope this does not happen. The community is already separated by mods, but to separate it by PAID mods would be outrageous.

Want to get paid doing something you like? Get a job doing it or add a donate button on your mod page, don't punish your fans.

Signed!

Edited September 14, 2013 by tortuosit

[Harbinger2456 10]

Well, I also play DCS:World, and we have paid for modules there. It works pretty well. A lot of modders make small, free addons, just like here. But we also have third party modders that make HUGE addons, like very realistic jets and helicopters, for sale to individuals. For instance, the Mi-8 Hip was just released by BelSimtek. And its a real beauty! I would welcome paid, high quality, third party mods like a realistic A-10C of DCS quality into Arma 3. I've thought about approaching some of the 3rd Party mod groups in the DCS forums and seeing if they would consider developing for Arma 3.

By "paid mods", you have to understand these are made by large groups of professionals, and are probably beyond the scope of most casual modders here. Even ACE really didn't do that much. I'm talking about tanks and such on the level of Steel Beasts, and aircraft on the level of DCS, as paid add-ons.

For smaller, more casual mods, as some guy said above, put a paypal donate button on it. If you really like it, buy 'em a beer for the hours they probably put into it.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Harbinger2456

[progamer 14]

Well, I also play DCS:World, and we have paid for modules there. It works pretty well. A lot of modders make small, free addons, just like here. But we also have third party modders that make HUGE addons, like very realistic jets and helicopters, for sale to individuals. For instance, the Mi-8 Hip was just released by BelSimtek. And its a real beauty! I would welcome paid, high quality, third party mods like a realistic A-10C of DCS quality into Arma 3. I've thought about approaching some of the 3rd Party mod groups in the DCS forums and seeing if they would consider developing for Arma 3.

By "paid mods", you have to understand these are made by large groups of professionals, and are probably beyond the scope of most casual modders here. Even ACE really didn't do that much. I'm talking about tanks and such on the level of Steel Beasts, and aircraft on the level of DCS, as paid add-ons.

For smaller, more casual mods, as some guy said above, put a paypal donate button on it. If you really like it, buy 'em a beer for the hours they probably put into it.

Any mods which make Arma 3 more like VBS are worth paying for in books.

[Harbinger2456 10]

The fact is, even one full character model, to the standard of a AAA game, can take more than a month of full time ( 40 hr week ) work, what with high res sculpts, low res models, UVs, textures, and then getting it in game. I wouldn't mind somebody charging a ( modest ) amount for all that work. And like other games, a Bis committee could decide which mods qualify. I imagine there would still be plenty of mods released for free.

This. Yeah, "to the standard of a AAA game", this is when it should be a paid module. Something really professionally done, by professionals, that is beyond the casual modder, probably using engine code that had to be supplied by BIS specially for it.

[gammadust 12]

Synthesis of 16 hours of input so far: (14/09/2013)

Questions

• Who actually is paying for paid mods? Bohemia itself or players?
  
• Does this goal relate in any way with already publicised DLCs? (paid and supporter edition bundles)
  

Cons

• concerns of excessive emerging of paid for mods (majority or all mods becoming paid)
  
• concerns/fears that in allowing money into loop would lead to
  more serious/increased disputes between members
  friendship loss
  end of multiplayer games
  
• concerns of Bohemia relying itself on the modders exploitation to add content, profiting significantly in the process
  
• concerns/fears that modders would shut themselves in closing their sources and methods afraid to lose potential gains otherwise, eventually leading to their disappearance
  
• fear of Arma losing identity (paid content and Arma don't go together)
  
• even higher pressure on modders in regards to users expectations
  
• concerns of removal of the fun in modding as an hobby
  
• concerns/fear of being forced to pay for addons
  
• concerns of mods being paid for individually (microtransactions?)
  
• concerns of community fragmentation due to price of mods
  

Pros

• additional protection for dedicated modders
  
• increased quality in addons
  
• still there would be great availability of free mods
  
• quantity of mods would only increase
  
• game lasting longer in time
  
• prospect of settling the Steam concerns favourably
  
• potential to broaden the scope of arma (mutants, aliens, zombies, ww2, ww1, new worlds, etc)
  

Current Situation

• no one sends donations even to very popular and requested islands
  
• not much motivation to share because of much too high expectations/demands from players
  
• no understanding of players for the amount of work hours a mod requires
  
• perception that players don't want to support modders in furthering their efforts
  
• low quality addons
  
• ungratefulness of Steam Workshop current state (should be paid for)
  
• difficulty in making donations (ability to donate through Steam welcome)
  

Conditions (towards paying for a mod)

• high quality standards/professionalism as a requirement for charging
  
• ability for players to opt-out of buying (assuming but no block from access to servers with paid versions)
  
• Bis choosing mods that qualify / NOT being Bis choosing
  
• only if for multiplayer
  
• only after Steam Workshop technically allows for mods (config type) and legal issues are clear
  
• only after Arma 3 is "completed"
  

Conditions (execution)

• it could only work if the pbos become locked
  
• arrangements between BIS and the community
  

Preferred Alternatives

• donations (=no change)
  
• Arma 3 addon store
  
• add a donnate button in Steam (missions AND mods)
  

Edited September 14, 2013 by gammadust

[Wolfstriked 11]

Arma3 at release is boring.....now we must pay for mods that make their game??

[Harbinger2456 10]

Yeah, with seeing how crummy and ancient their engine is getting, I don't think I'll be buying. The old horse has finally collapsed.

This is no Arma II.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

I'd like to point out that people steal/rip Bohemia content all the time, and there have been documented cases of people stealing/ripping models from VBS, with it's supposedly superior protection.

[meshcarver 12]

I'm not 100% on what's being laid out here guys..?

Are you saying we'll have to pay for things like maps/vehicles/units etc at some point?

[Vigil Vindex 64]

Are you saying we'll have to pay for things like maps/vehicles/units etc at some point?

Basically, yes.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

This thread is a massive misinterpretation - all that line was about was that BI would ask a mod maker if they would want to make a paid-dlc out of their work, this isn't the first time this has happened. The czech DLC for arma 2 was made mostly by a mod team.

This isn't BI allowing people to sell their mods - it's simply picking up content and making it official content, not something the mod maker themselves decides to do (well other than accepting BI's offer)

[[aps]gnat 28]

This thread is a massive misinterpretation - all that line was about was that BI would ask a mod maker if they would want to make a paid-dlc out of their work, this isn't the first time this has happened. The czech DLC for arma 2 was made mostly by a mod team.

This isn't BI allowing people to sell their mods - it's simply picking up content and making it official content, not something the mod maker themselves decides to do (well other than accepting BI's offer)

Yep, agree.

I say no.

Biggest concern (among many) is that the Addon makers community(s) will basically implode, because those people who understand the BIS technology and make mods will cease to support the community, as it becomes a competitive environment.

Commercial imperatives take over :(

A little concerned OP doesn't like paying for BIS DLC, but suggests non-BIS Addon makers be allowed to start charging. Huh?

[Mattar_Tharkari 10]

This thread is a massive misinterpretation - all that line was about was that BI would ask a mod maker if they would want to make a paid-dlc out of their work, this isn't the first time this has happened. The czech DLC for arma 2 was made mostly by a mod team.

This isn't BI allowing people to sell their mods - it's simply picking up content and making it official content, not something the mod maker themselves decides to do (well other than accepting BI's offer)

If that is what it means I think it's a good idea. I would pay for something that is official DLC with quality control (provided we aren't resold things we already have as with the Czech DLC). The best way would be for the modder and BIS to share a percentage of the funds from downloads.

I doubt I would ever pay for DLC direct from the community, it would end up with too many problems and risks, possibly the occasional fraudster taking advantage.

[nodunit 397]

aircraft on the level of DCS, as paid add-ons.

Not going to happen, the engine isn't built for it. For one thing the whole fetish of flipping switches is only going to happen in analogue aircraft.

If you want to have a moving screen and instruments for the various pages then those are going to take up most of your bone count, not to mention each page has to be custom built with polygons upon polygons, there is no rendering source that allows you to do more advanced things, you have to make it up as you go, trust me, I know.

Fuel pumps and injectors? You need to build a whole new system for that and thats even if it works properly.

The engine doesn't support the sound sources so work around may produce oddities such as the audio being local to the pilot and no one else. We don't even have the friggen landing gear sources that TKOH introduced.

Want to use FLIR for navigation like modern aircraft or even say a tank in steel beasts?

Forget it, the only thing you're going to be able to discern on Altis are hot objects, maybe the houses and a few trees, if there is ground with a hill you won't know about its general shape or anything, just the lump on the horizon.

Damage systems are also rather basic, again you have to create your own, there is no in-engine entity that will allow you to assign something failing if this should be damaged too outside of the most basics.

That includes body damage such as losing tail, wings and more. The system or what gets hit and how is finicky at times and we still need to experiment as to wether or not Arma 3 with physX would allow you to say..landing your plane on its wing thus breaking the wing off and driving it into the ground as opposed to breaking the wing but having collision geometry still pretend its there, thus riding on an invisible gap OR flipping over.

There is no radar that isn't all knowing, you have to build that yourself...essentially you'd have to build so many things yourself and use so many work arounds in the engine that most people likely won't think its worth the hassle.

Edited September 15, 2013 by NodUnit

[Tonci87 163]

This thread is a massive misinterpretation - all that line was about was that BI would ask a mod maker if they would want to make a paid-dlc out of their work, this isn't the first time this has happened. The czech DLC for arma 2 was made mostly by a mod team.

This isn't BI allowing people to sell their mods - it's simply picking up content and making it official content, not something the mod maker themselves decides to do (well other than accepting BI's offer)

Yeah and we saw how good that one worked out.

[b00tsy 28]

This thread is a massive misinterpretation - all that line was about was that BI would ask a mod maker if they would want to make a paid-dlc out of their work, this isn't the first time this has happened. The czech DLC for arma 2 was made mostly by a mod team.

This isn't BI allowing people to sell their mods - it's simply picking up content and making it official content, not something the mod maker themselves decides to do (well other than accepting BI's offer)

If this is the concept I do not like it one bit.