Is the game dumbed down?

[byku 13]

Although I also consider metalcraze to be a huge pessimist, he has some valid points :). Go go metalcraze :P

[Varanon 892]

exactly, arma 3 is a public game

No it isn't. It's as public as the server it runs on.

[chrisb 196]

Why don't the MIL-SIM community get together and promote your gameplay.. :

Communities have been doing just that for many years with this series and others. With campaigns lasting much longer than a few weeks or months, years can be the case for some war-gaming communities (ongoing campaigns), ours certainly was, led on from SL/ASL (pc/board, create a, modern war gaming world, modded). We moved from that onto Arma (1), having messed around with OFP, but not very much.

__

But to have a realistic immersive game, you need basics that perpetuate that realism/immersion, things your ongoing campaign world is built on, or even your short mission/scenario. We have become blasé regards the game-play we have in A2, great AI, our own well put together missions/scenarios/campaigns etc, which all keeps our game world ticking over, we took for granted the extent A2 and its vast content provided everything we needed.

When you line A3 alongside A2 its unfair, we know, A2 has a big advantage, a few years of nurture, plus lots of content, ‘& I mean, lots of content’….

But when you look at A3, it’s the basics that seem to be missing, its biased towards faster, easier game-play (mainstream).

I have no problem at all with that, its disappointing that A3 has gone down a different path, but that’s life, I was expecting it

But you have to expect players to express their disappointment.

For me A2 gave, and still is giving everything I need, so I was and still am, very happy, it could not go much further to please. Obviously it would have been nice to have things in A3, that were needed as mod/addons in A2, put into the game as stock, but they weren’t, in-fact it feels like the opposite, but never mind we still have them in A2. I would also have liked the lighting and graphics of A3, but really, its all about the game-play for me, so those type of things don't bother me too much.

But for some who didn’t find that great game-play they perhaps wanted, they looked to A3 to provide it.

So now A3 is going down a mainstream type route, its upsetting for them, just human nature.

I would say, stick with A2, for those that can’t find what they’re looking for in A3. A2 has everything needed for realistic and totally immersive game-play, if you look for it. Provided you make good quality campaigns/missions/scenarios, its all there, obviously it has to be heavily modded, but that's fine.

A really well modded A2 will not be matched for that style of realistic, immersive game-play, I firmly believe that.

I also believe A3 is the last, no point for A4, unless its completely a different game/engine etc. They have taken the series into the future, that’s where I think they may leave it.

What can they add, nothing really, they can just look to a healthier profit margin, which is what they have done, you just can’t blame them for that. Game series run a course, some you just have to leave when they are at they’re best. BIS should have left A2 as the final instalment in the series (imo) and called A3, something else, always best to go out on top form, A2 was and still is top form.

In no way am I saying Arma 3 is a bad game, its not, but its of a different type now, for those that want a little more realistic game-play than say BF3 offers, then A3 sits nicely.

:)

Just imo.

[dav 22]

Communities have been doing just that for many years with this series and others. With campaigns lasting much longer than a few weeks or months, years can be the case for some war-gaming communities (ongoing campaigns), ours certainly was, led on from SL/ASL (pc/board, create a, modern war gaming world, modded). We moved from that onto Arma (1), having messed around with OFP, but not very much.

__

But to have a realistic immersive game, you need basics that perpetuate that realism/immersion, things your ongoing campaign world is built on, or even your short mission/scenario. We have become blasé regards the game-play we have in A2, great AI, our own well put together missions/scenarios/campaigns etc, which all keeps our game world ticking over, we took for granted the extent A2 and its vast content provided everything we needed.

When you line A3 alongside A2 its unfair, we know, A2 has a big advantage, a few years of nurture, plus lots of content, ‘& I mean, lots of content’….

But when you look at A3, it’s the basics that seem to be missing, its biased towards faster, easier game-play (mainstream).

I have no problem at all with that, its disappointing that A3 has gone down a different path, but that’s life, I was expecting it

But you have to expect players to express their disappointment.

For me A2 gave, and still is giving everything I need, so I was and still am, very happy, it could not go much further to please. Obviously it would have been nice to have things in A3, that were needed as mod/addons in A2, put into the game as stock, but they weren’t, in-fact it feels like the opposite, but never mind we still have them in A2. I would also have liked the lighting and graphics of A3, but really, its all about the game-play for me, so those type of things don't bother me too much.

But for some who didn’t find that great game-play they perhaps wanted, they looked to A3 to provide it.

So now A3 is going down a mainstream type route, its upsetting for them, just human nature.

I would say, stick with A2, for those that can’t find what they’re looking for in A3. A2 has everything needed for realistic and totally immersive game-play, if you look for it. Provided you make good quality campaigns/missions/scenarios, its all there, obviously it has to be heavily modded, but that's fine.

A really well modded A2 will not be matched for that style of realistic, immersive game-play, I firmly believe that.

I also believe A3 is the last, no point for A4, unless its completely a different game/engine etc. They have taken the series into the future, that’s where I think they may leave it.

What can they add, nothing really, they can just look to a healthier profit margin, which is what they have done, you just can’t blame them for that. Game series run a course, some you just have to leave when they are at they’re best. BIS should have left A2 as the final instalment in the series (imo) and called A3, something else, always best to go out on top form, A2 was and still is top form.

In no way am I saying Arma 3 is a bad game, its not, but its of a different type now, for those that want a little more realistic game-play than say BF3 offers, then A3 sits nicely.

:)

Just imo.

Yeah like Arma 2 isn't starting to smell like cheese. Arma 3 is hard even brutal at times, you are painting it out to be similar to an auto lock shooter like bf or cod:confused: I'm afraid I disagree with your rosé tinted view on Arma 2. The models in 2 moved like blocks with feet and the engine was way less appealing. Regardless that's your opinion and why your bringing it to this forum I.e Arma 3 I don't know:confused:

[froggyluv 2136]

Yeah like Arma 2 isn't starting to smell like cheese. Arma 3 is hard even brutal at times, you are painting it out to be similar to an auto lock shooter like bf or cod:confused: I'm afraid I disagree with your rosé tinted view on Arma 2. The models in 2 moved like blocks with feet and the engine was way less appealing. Regardless that's your opinion and why your bringing it to this forum I.e Arma 3 I don't know:confused:

ChrisB just has to make sure that everyone knows a HEAVILY MODDED ARMA2 is the way to go :p

But I agree Dav, movement (minus prone roatation speed) in Arma2 is reminiscent of my 70yo Dad on a slow day (actually, he's still quicker) ;)

And heavily modded A3 already trumps A2 gameplay wise by far imo.

[-ghost-tf 12]

Yeah like Arma 2 isn't starting to smell like cheese.

I love cheese.

Arma 3 is hard even brutal at times, you are painting it out to be similar to an auto lock shooter like bf or cod:confused:

You mean how BF3 beats arma3's auto TAB lock system?

I'm afraid I disagree with your rosé tinted view on Arma 2. The models in 2 moved like blocks with feet and the engine was way less appealing. Regardless that's your opinion and why your bringing it to this forum I.e Arma 3 I don't know:confused:

He was replying to someone's question, thats how a forum works, and I happen to agree with his "rosé tinted view on Arma 2".

And heavily modded A3 already trumps A2 gameplay wise by far imo.

Everyone his own opinion then I guess.

[Phantom Six 25]

Yup. Idk why people are freaking out about med packs.

* In previous titles players could always be healed by medics even after sustaining what's supposed to be a fatal wound. Repeatedly...

* Players now can do that on their own without any medic (if the mission designer doesn't simply take FAKs out of said mission)

* People IRL have access to FAKs. I have one in my bathroom & I do know how to use it. I know how to stop the bleeding & bandage my wounds. If a hot piece of lead were to go through my arm, I'd grab my FAK & tend my wounds ASAP. What's wrong with a military personnel doing the same?

Because they don't stop bleeding, they're instant bionic limps and legs replacement that's a little beaten up. Sure we have some FAKs in our bathrooms in real life, but say I fracture my foot, you think I'll be able to sprint full speed again after FAKing my own foot? That's ridiculous. You don't get back the blood you lost with a FAK.

It's tedious to remove every single FAK as well. It's not that having FAKs are bad, its the way they work. Even Dragon Rising has field dressing (which is basically like how FAK), that you use only to stop bleeding, and it takes longer to use than FAKs itself.

So is the game dumb down? Yes it is. First aid has been dumbed down compared to ARMA 2 which has first aid module which is much more advance than the FAK system. So basically, a more advance system has been dumbed down to a standard of some arcadish way of healing with FAKs.

Why take out something that was once there. Yeah, first aid modules has its bugs here and there but it was much better than FAKs.

And like i said, there is already revive script, which works most arma 2 used to work - drag, first aid etc.

I play in a community that does NOT use revive/respawn. You CAN NOT DIE from a fatal shot to the head with revive so what's the point. It's not a replacement for a crappy first aid system nor a bandage to it. Missions that I do design nowadays aren't designed around revive/respawn. The varieties I can think of are limited compared to ARMA 2. Even with ONLY Arma 2 vanilla (without Arrowhead and such and no addons either), I still have enough assets to think up of and create multiple scenarios for it.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Phantom Six

[connorwarman 60]

The thing that bugs me, is the fact that once again BIS has given us the foundation of the game we as the ArmA community have been looking for.

It feels that many things that were promised have not been delivered, and that it has been left up to the modding community to make it the game we want it to be.

[youpplaremindnumbing 10]

That sounds like a good thing, would you rather bf3 style modding? ;)

Stick to your crazy ambitious vision bis its why I give you money.

[connorwarman 60]

The thing that bugs me, is the fact that once again BIS has given us the foundation of the game we as the ArmA community have been looking for.

It feels that many things that were promised have not been delivered, and that it has been left up to the modding community to make it the game we want it to be.

[katipo66 94]

In no way am I saying Arma 3 is a bad game, its not, but its of a different type now, for those that want a little more realistic game-play than say BF3 offers, then A3 sits nicely.

Apart from the obvious contention being around content and future setting and FAKs is it really that different? has the ability to play ultra realism been removed altogether.

I always wished that there could be some mix of BF and Arma and A3 has provided that opportunity, but i never wished that anything would be dumbed down as such.

If the concern is that the flood of new players will demand the game be dumbed down even more until its exactly like COD/BF then surely that wont happen.. the game has only been released and so only time will tell how the game and new/old players settle into a rhythm.

I think that there is an opportunity to promote the realism aspect of the game to all the new and casual players, promote the joy of team play and satisfaction of achieving objectives without the need for "DOMINATING" (ala UT), although ive never experienced this style i can fully get the concept and the enjoyment that would come from this.

i guess ive just got my peace nik hippie hat on today and not really explaining it to well but essentially i dont believe its that new players dont want realism, probably they just dont really understand it or even know that it exists so maybe the Community along with BIS could come up with some sort of way to easily introduce it to anyone who might be interested and therefore promote the style and grow the community.

Or we can just keep :638:

Edited September 18, 2013 by Katipo66

[-Coulum- 35]

Although specific feautres have been dumbed down, I don't think that the game as a whole has been dumbed down - arma 2 really wasn't all that much, if any, more realistic to be honest. However, I do think that the overall goal of arma has been dumbed down. They are no longer shooting to make the game any more realistic. There are alot of things that could have been done to really take the game to the next level of realism (ie. fatigue, encumbrance, medical, tablocking) but rather they chose to keep it at around arma 2 or slightly lower standards in terms of complexity.

So although I will never go back to arma 2, because arma 3 is simply the superior game in many aspects, it is kind of disappointing that arma 3 is deviating from what arma 2 was all about (or at least what I thought it was all about). Arma 3 is still a great game and the ai turn rate change and weapon sway is enough for me to want to buy it, but instead of taking a step forward from arma 2, its kind of taken a step sideways. My opinion.

And regarding the medical system, I am sorry but it is down right pathetic and I don't see how anyone could argue for it whether from a realism or gameplay perspective. It was mentioned that red river had a better system, and to my horror, I find that is true. Arma 2 wounding wasn't great without the FA module, but the FAKs are even more of a downgrade I can't see benefiting anyone. I can only hope that BIS made this so simple so it would be easy to mod. Because in terms of gameplay balance the implementation of FAKs are one of the biggest design flaws I have ever seen in a game. I honestly think I would prefer very slow regenerating health to that shit.

[Harbinger2456 10]

@op - Yes. Its VERY dumbed down.

[David77 10]

Clearly. It's dumbed down because people can use a FAK (Not like people use FAKs everyday IRL or anything) and because the bicycle and some jets are missing. I like how it's been okay for a medic to heal a person over & over (and that person not die) in the other titles but it's not okay for someone to use FAKs. :rolleyes:

Use your ******* imagination FFS. Lord knows I've had to use my imagination to rationalize plenty of wonky shit in the other titles.

Edited September 18, 2013 by David77

[FallenPaladin 0]

I`d prefer to have the option to choose between a more realistic medical system and an "arcadish" one for quick MP games.

The "realistic" medical system would still give you a FAK (In real life we carry tourniquets, quickclot, morphine, different bandages and some other minor stuff. If you are better trained, for example a combat medic you get an additional small backpack or daypack containing further medical equipment like IV sets and so on.), but you would only be able to stop yourself from bleeding to death. After injury you should have some seconds to react and stop your bleeding. After that there would be the loss of conciousness (always in relation to where you are wounded and the amount of blood you lose) and after that death, if no medic is close to give you further aid and stabilize you for casevac by giving you fluid via IV. If you are able to stop the bleeding yourself you should still be handicapped. Some possible examples which shouldn`t be to hard to put into the game, because there were injuries like that in the original Operation Flashpoint back in the day.

Injury to the head - distorted sight, bad hearing

Injury to the arms - shaking arms, maybe even only the use of one arm which leads to being able only to shoot with your pistol (singlehandedly of yours) to defend yourself

Injury to torso - pain, which leads to distorted sight, problems to breathe, which lead to slower movement (together with the right breathing sounds this could be pretty dramatic)

Injury to the legs - depending on the position of the wound and the size of it, it could lead to only being able to "hobble" around or even loose the ability to walk

You should keep these handicaps until you have been casevaced. Getting fixed up properly should take some game time, but the amount to keep it still playable and entertaining could be discussed.

Wounds and injuries can never be taken easy and in real live minor wounds put you out of an engagement where in Hollywood you`d still be able to happily "spray" your enemies.

In this more realistic medical setting the medic would be more important together with proper casevac or medevac. This could also lead to dramatic and thrilling missions because what is more dramatic than trying to save your buddies while under fire. It leads also to difficult decisions because engaging the enemy in a firefight should always come before first aid. Which explains why we carry a lot of medical equipment to help ourselves while our buddies try to kill the enemy to get to us.

The more "arcadish" injury system could stay the way it is to make MP matches more fluid. I can understand why it is the way it is, but the game could be so more entertaining and thrilling, if you have real reason to be afraid of injuries again.

And I would love to have casevac missions in the game. Together with close air, artillery or mortars this is what infantry warfare is like.

Edited September 18, 2013 by FallenPaladin

[dmarkwick 261]

This feature has been in the game for a decade. BIS thank you for not cutting out!

Happy now?

Whatever.

So now I should be fixing BIS game too?

Fixing, changing, improving, making your own mark, however you wish to term it, you have the power to do it.

---------- Post added at 07:23 ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 ----------

Although I also consider metalcraze to be a huge pessimist, he has some valid points :). Go go metalcraze :P

It is true. However, his pessimism is relentless and when it is couched in that awful passive-aggressive/sarcastic style it cheapens whatever point he has and makes it difficult to initially even understand what he's complaining about.

[Variable 322]

It is true. However, his pessimism is relentless and when it is couched in that awful passive-aggressive/sarcastic style it cheapens whatever point he has and makes it difficult to initially even understand what he's complaining about.

It's not contributing to constantly bash a fellow member. You seem to be very occupied with metalcraze's posts. Maybe you are the one that should let it go. Don't get me wrong, if you have counter arguments we can all learn from let's hear them, but please enough with the ad hominem.

[dmarkwick 261]

Yeah I know it :)

[-ghost-tf 12]

Clearly. It's dumbed down because people can use a FAK (Not like people use FAKs everyday IRL or anything)

Yeah, here in the Netherlands everybody is removing bullets from deep wounds daily. Got shot in the head while going to work? No problem, sit down for 3 seconds and remove that bullet out of your brains, got shot in the leg while going to school? No problem, you got a First Aid Kit afterall.

I like how it's been okay for a medic to heal a person over & over (and that person not die) in the other titles but it's not okay for someone to use FAKs. :rolleyes:

What are you even talking about?

Arma2:

Shot/injured in the legs = punishment (can only crawl)

Shot in the arm/hands = punishment (Bigger aiming shake) cannot be fixed by simply holding your breath/pressing right mouse button.

An unconcious/wounded state where you could get dragged/carried by a medic.

Dying from bleeding out.

Animation when the medic heals a person making both the medic and the wounded person combat ineffective for a few seconds.

Arma3:

Shot/injured in the legs = punishment (takes like 6 rounds last time I checked) Can only walk.

Shot in the arm/hands = Bigger aiming shake that can simply be ignored by holding right mouse button or going crouched/prone.

No unconcious/wounded state.

There is no bleeding out.

Magic handwave when a medic heals a person, while the wounded person can just run off shoot stuff while the medic is not even done doing his 3 sec handwave.

Use your ******* imagination FFS. Lord knows I've had to use my imagination to rationalize plenty of wonky shit in the other titles.

Using your imagination to fix something in the game kind of describes how the current medical system works, magic.

[David77 10]

Yeah, here in the Netherlands everybody is removing bullets from deep wounds daily. Got shot in the head while going to work? No problem, sit down for 3 seconds and remove that bullet out of your brains, got shot in the leg while going to school? No problem, you got a First Aid Kit afterall.

What are you even talking about?

Arma2:

Shot/injured in the legs = punishment (can only crawl)

Shot in the arm/hands = punishment (Bigger aiming shake) cannot be fixed by simply holding your breath/pressing right mouse button.

An unconcious/wounded state where you could get dragged/carried by a medic.

Dying from bleeding out.

Animation when the medic heals a person making both the medic and the wounded person combat ineffective for a few seconds.

Arma3:

Shot/injured in the legs = punishment (takes like 6 rounds last time I checked) Can only walk.

Shot in the arm/hands = Bigger aiming shake that can simply be ignored by holding right mouse button or going crouched/prone.

No unconcious/wounded state.

There is no bleeding out.

Magic handwave when a medic heals a person, while the wounded person can just run off shoot stuff while the medic is not even done doing his 3 sec handwave.

Using your imagination to fix something in the game kind of describes how the current medical system works, magic.

1) Soldiers wear helmets. I'll give you one thing, every now & again a face shot doesn't kill, but that's not working as intended. It's not anything to do with dumbing down. It's to do with headgear protection.

2) In Arma2 you could get shot and a medic could heal you to walk again. Get shot again and heal you right back up to walk again. Rinse repeat.

There are many things in Arma 2 that aren't realistic. Don't like FAKs in A3? Take them out. Don't like the medical system? Time to start writing code or wait for someone else to do it. In the A3 domination I dabbled in, there was a revive system. So I would also believe there is a grand medical system available. This is far from being dumbed down. "Changed" is more like it.

Is what I'm talking about.

Edited September 18, 2013 by David77

[-ghost-tf 12]

1) Soldiers wear helmets. I'll give you SOMETIMES a face shot doesn't kill, but that's not working as intended. It's not anything to do with dumbing down.

Oh so they dumbed down the whole medical system because they introduced helmets for soldiers, that we didnt have in arma2? Its all starting to make sense now.

2)In Arma2 you could get shot and a medic could heal you right back up. get shot again and heal you right back up. Rinse repeat.

Actually no, with the arma2 first aid system you would die instantly if you took a shot in the head, but if you got shot in any other part of your body you would get into unconcious/wounded state, however there is always a chance that the second time you get shot would kill you instead of putting you back in unconcious state. So nope, you could not get shot and revived over and over again.

Is what I'm talking about.

Tbh, I still dont know what you're talking about.

[Tonci87 163]

It is true. However, his pessimism is relentless and when it is couched in that awful passive-aggressive/sarcastic style it cheapens whatever point he has and makes it difficult to initially even understand what he's complaining about.

You know that is really funny. Metalcraze has quite often valid points but it is hard to recognize them under all his rambling which is a shame. So Please Metalcraze try to write in a more constructive way and you will have much more influence.

[David77 10]

Oh so they dumbed down the whole medical system because they introduced helmets for soldiers, that we didnt have in arma2? Its all starting to make sense now.

Actually no, with the arma2 first aid system you would die instantly if you took a shot in the head, but if you got shot in any other part of your body you would get into unconcious/wounded state, however there is always a chance that the second time you get shot would kill you instead of putting you back in unconcious state. So nope, you could not get shot and revived over and over again.

Tbh, I still dont know what you're talking about.

It doesn't surprise me that you don't know what I'm talking about. I don't think you & people in this thread know what dumbing down actually means.

Edited September 18, 2013 by David77

[-ghost-tf 12]

There are many things in Arma 2 that aren't realistic.

I know that, but what's your point? We are talking about the medical system now. And the arma2 medical system, even while it has its issues, is still better then the current arma3 medical system.

Don't like FAKs in A3? Take them out. Don't like the medical system? Time to start writing code or wait for someone else to do it. In the A3 domination I dabbled in, there was a revive system. So I would also believe there is a grand medical system available. This is far from being dumbed down. "Changed" is more like it.

Hahaha, as soon as you start running out of "arguments" you switch to plan B, telling someone to go fix the game himself, well played.

[David77 10]

You're the one who brought up getting shot in the head & not dying? I replied that it's to do with head gear protection... But, You're right. You never die from head shots in Arma3. That head protection certainly is working as intended, and is dumbing the game down right? They dumbed the game down to absurd levels. Arma2 was completely realistic. There are no things in Arma3 that are infact more realistic than A2. In Vanilla Arma2 I couldn't get shot in the body & healed back up by a medic several times for hours on end... sprinting across the battlefield afterwords. No those things never happened. None of these issues with A3 will ever be addressed either. :rolleyes: