Is the game dumbed down?

[bad benson 1733]

I don't know that it is. If I need to move off prematurely, then I should be able to, right? With the appropriate penalty that I have not received healing. I guess there might be a problem if you're the medic though, can they also move off prematurely? I got the feeling from Metalcraze's posts that he could not, but then I haven't tried it myself and this seems to be crucial in dealing with these issues :)

i agree that moving should be possible and should stop the healing (depending on severity ofc) like it is now. the problem here is though, and probably the reason why metalcraze thought it is like he described, that the medic will finish his healing animation. so he's kind of boned when both get under fire :D.

so it would be nice if it was finished and executed to the end. and i could swear that while less annoying than before, that you still get teleported as a medic sometimes.

there was also at some point in the alpha an action to cancel self healing when in danger. it was removed again. i wish it wasn't. and i'm sure the reason it was removed was the fact that it was probably buggy and open to exploits. i'd rather have them try harder to fix existing stuff than just cutting everything that doesn't work properly. it's a bad practice.

i mean let's be honest. one of the main reasons arma 3 seems less buggy (while it is in some parts) is that there is no campaign to show these bugs or barely vehicles who could suffer from those. i understand the reasoning behind cutting stuff if it is not up to standards but if we end up with barely half a game then i see no point. i mean the game is not complete on release anyways. why not leave stuff in to be tested and finish it over time like all the rest?

BTW, fun fact: At release, the ArmA 2 medical system was even more "dumbed down" than the ArmA 3 one is now. Medics were able to heal you to 100% without needing ANY supplies. But don't let facts get in your way!

why ignore all the points that have been brought up about that lately? oh i see! it would make your post redundant...nvm

@icewindo: exactly my thoughts. i will never understand why they removed the forced crawling. i guess because it's less annoying for people who are used to zero effects from other games, except blood splatter on the screen, to walk like a grandpa instead...

Edited September 19, 2013 by Bad Benson

[dmarkwick 261]

Even if you didn't get healed DMarkwick that still doesn't change the fact that game has been dumbed down severely in regards to wounding and healing.

I don't regard it as dumbed down - I regard it as unfinished. We were told that there were plans to upgrade the medic system, I don't have any reason to think that those plans are lost. I noticed another detail last night - when an AI announced he was wounded, if the squad leader couldn't easily get the medic to the wounded unit he was told to treat himself. I had not noticed this activity before, but then I don't often play as a subordinate to an AI squad leader. So there is some latent medic management system going on already, it might not be fully fleshed as per the (presumed) design requirements, but I believe it shows that further improvement will be made.

[Varanon 892]

I don't regard it as dumbed down - I regard it as unfinished. We were told that there were plans to upgrade the medic system, I don't have any reason to think that those plans are lost.

Source ? Where did they say that ?

The last thing I heard was something in the lines of "we wanted to do more but couldn't". No promise of anything better. So if you have any source, please let me know.

[dmarkwick 261]

Well my source is a dev post buried somewhere deep in the pre-alpha release strata of the forum :) it was a generic "we have plans for a new medic system" sort of statement. Not exactly a promise, and I didn't take it as such, but I have a confidence that a post-release improvement is likely. Until then I continue to remove FAKs where I need to (which isn't often if I'm honest, at this stage I don't play hyper-realism I play for fun and observations) and use TPW bleeding.

[Tonci87 163]

Well my source is a dev post buried somewhere deep in the pre-alpha release strata of the forum :) it was a generic "we have plans for a new medic system" sort of statement. Not exactly a promise, and I didn't take it as such, but I have a confidence that a post-release improvement is likely. Until then I continue to remove FAKs where I need to (which isn't often if I'm honest, at this stage I don't play hyper-realism I play for fun and observations) and use TPW bleeding.

I don´t think that it is likely and here is why: BIS, and the community, would have to change/update every mission. I don´t see that happening on BIS side. They are working on the Campaign already and they want to finish it ASAP.

If you play Zippers Campaign for Arma 2 then you will notice that the player always has some sort of FAK to insta heal himself. Obviously Zipper, one of the guys making the campaign is in favour of such a system.

So we have to keep reminding them of this dumbed down and incomplete feature otherwise they won´t change it.

[dmarkwick 261]

I don´t think that it is likely and here is why: BIS, and the community, would have to change/update every mission. I don´t see that happening on BIS side. They are working on the Campaign already and they want to finish it ASAP.

I imagine that this is the reason they implemented it via module in ArmA2.

If you play Zippers Campaign for Arma 2 then you will notice that the player always has some sort of FAK to insta heal himself. Obviously Zipper, one of the guys making the campaign is in favour of such a system.

Entirely a design decision, if you're playing a campaign then you're playing a storyline, which is different to playing a scenario. As such, a story-led situation is always "helping" you down a specific path :)

So we have to keep reminding them of this dumbed down and incomplete feature otherwise they won´t change it.

I'd be wary of applying self-fulfilling type justifications - if they don't do something, proof that devs don't care, if they do do something, proof that complaining about bad features works ;)

[youpplaremindnumbing 10]

Excellent video, thats exactly what we need. Plus tank interiors with clickable cockpits. What we have right now is just a dumbed down BF3 in a larger land.

Where were you back in the day? because we haven't had tank interiors for such a long time now that your dumbing down point is moot.

It seems that most of these posters haven't actually played any other armas and are just going off what they have read.

For information - I tried exactly this tonight. About 20 minutes ago. I was injured, I validated my damage level, and requested a medic. When he started to heal me, I then moved off (seemed like a silly thing to do, but I did this for the best of reasons :)) and I did not get healed.

Don't bother testing unless they provide a video of them testing it because the amount of "I did this and this happened, I'm serious go test it" which are bs is amazing.

[icewindo 29]

Good to see our resident elitists haven't gone out of business.

BTW, fun fact: At release, the ArmA 2 medical system was even more "dumbed down" than the ArmA 3 one is now. Medics were able to heal you to 100% without needing ANY supplies. But don't let facts get in your way!

Oh I'm a resident elitist now. Quite an upgrade from fanboy which I consider myself since I own all the titles so far and have modded quite abit for.

And while we're at facts, what are these "facts" you talk about? You pick one thing that is better in ArmA3 (medics needing supplies) and neglect/ignore all the other arguments. Wow, you're quite the master of discussion. Where did you learn that?

Now for my turn I'm picking quite a few things that were in the ArmA2 medical system (+vanilla modules) but not in ArmA3:

- leg damage simulation on units

- wounded could be carried, the carrier was even able to shoot with one hand while doing that (very inaccurate)

- wounded could be dragged

- wounded could be stabilized with first aid by normal soldiers and fully healed by medics

Yep, the system had some faults at release, most noticeable in MP. But it was way more atmospheric and tactical than A2 without it or ArmA3 at the current state.

old video of mine showing some of the features:

@Bad Benson

Yep the game feels half-baked. I don't have as much a issue with that as long as the game will still improve. I'm disappointed about the promised campaign and the current medical system though. And there's a good deal of further issues.

It just makes me wonder where all the resources went to. With all the hundreds of thousands of copies sold because of DayZ money alone can't be the fault now, can it?

Maybe it's all gone to the Mars. :)

Good thing I don't have much time left for playing or modding these days. Less incentives to keep on "ranting".

Edited September 19, 2013 by Icewindo

[metalcraze 290]

I don't regard it as dumbed down - I regard it as unfinished. We were told that there were plans to upgrade the medic system, I don't have any reason to think that those plans are lost.

Where, by whom and when? At E3 2013 Jay Crowe said there are no plans to improve medic system whatsoever. Which is obviously true since BIS doesn't even bother improving it.

And when it comes to actual BIS plans... 1.5 months ago BIS devs said they will remove the ability to carry superhuman loadouts and they haven't fixed this issue at all and don't even try to anymore.

It's very clear when the stuff is unfinished - it doesn't work as intended. But when there are no attempts to change/improve it - it's very much by design.

Edited September 19, 2013 by metalcraze

[youpplaremindnumbing 10]

Or those tiny things are way down the list and important things are being worked on

[sektor 2]

Since you are talking about medic system, DayZ SA has limping animations, that would be nice to see in Arma.

[icewindo 29]

Where, by whom and when? At E3 2013 Jay Crowe said there are no plans to improve medic system whatsoever. Which is obviously true since BIS doesn't even bother improving it.

And when it comes to actual BIS plans... 1.5 months ago BIS devs said they will remove the ability to carry superhuman loadouts and they haven't fixed this issue at all and don't even try to anymore.

It's very clear when the stuff is unfinished - it doesn't work as intended. But when there are no attempts to change/improve it - it's very much by design.

Oh yeah. The loadout.

http://s7.directupload.net/images/130910/4qviswk3.png

Or those tiny things are way down the list and important things are being worked on

Tiny, unimportant things for you, big things for other guys. Also, if so much is wrong with the game, how come it has been released just some days ago? It kinda feels like the Rome Total War2 release.

[metalcraze 290]

I want people to look at that loadout and say that one man armies in ArmA3 are nothing but a myth and exaggeration.

[icewindo 29]

I want people to look at that loadout and say that one man armies in ArmA3 are nothing but a myth and exaggeration.

Also for reference, the same in OA:

http://s14.directupload.net/images/130919/znj2wp8m.jpg

ArmA3 leads with 69x 5.56mm mags vs. OA with 26x 5.56mm mags. Quite the upgrade.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Icewindo

[chortles 263]

So we have to keep reminding them of this dumbed down and incomplete feature otherwise they won´t change it.

As if they weren't already being reminded throughout the alpha and beta, with the reaction that metalcraze describes and what you infer to be specific dev design intent by Zipper5?

(Mind you, I don't recall Jay Crowe explicitly saying no plans for ever; I just remember it clearly being not what I call "a September 12th priority".)

Edited September 19, 2013 by Chortles

[youpplaremindnumbing 10]

Tiny, unimportant things for you, big things for other guys. Also, if so much is wrong with the game, how come it has been released just some days ago? It kinda feels like the Rome Total War2 release.

Compared to optimization it is a minuscule thing.

So did arma 2, arma is just to long ago now for clear memory.

[metalcraze 290]

You do realize that engine optimization and loadout/weight configs as well as medical system designs are done by completely different people?

Surprise!

And gameplay issues are never a miniscule thing. Although perhaps to people who do not care about the gameplay in games they are.

[Varanon 892]

Or those tiny things are way down the list and important things are being worked on

Like what important things ?

This (from today's dev change log)

Enabled blood when Korean language is selected

I would guess there are more important things than enabling blood with Korean language selected.

Edit: And yeah, I know this was probably an "en passant" fix, but still, for a game that calls itself authentic, authenticity should not be a tiny thing. One of the strengths of Arma over all other shooters was it's realism/authenticity, so such issues should not be considered "tiny".

---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

(Mind you, I don't recall Jay Crowe explicitly saying no plans for ever; I just remember it clearly being not what I call "a September 12th priority".)

Problem is, as long as there is no plan announced, there is no plan. Some people interpret it differently, but realistically, the only conclusion you can make from not knowing whether it will change or not is that you do not know. And with no clear message from the developers, I'd rather tend towards "no plans"

[NeuroFunker 11]

Like what important things ?

This (from today's dev change log)

I would guess there are more important things than enabling blood with Korean language selected.

Edit: And yeah, I know this was probably an "en passant" fix, but still, for a game that calls itself authentic, authenticity should not be a tiny thing. One of the strengths of Arma over all other shooters was it's realism/authenticity, so such issues should not be considered "tiny".

---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

Problem is, as long as there is no plan announced, there is no plan. Some people interpret it differently, but realistically, the only conclusion you can make from not knowing whether it will change or not is that you do not know. And with no clear message from the developers, I'd rather tend towards "no plans"

anounced plan? Lolwut. Are there many games, where devs announce plans at release, or any plans at all?

[chortles 263]

More to the point, I noticed that during and after the "axed features" thread, the devs became very "anti-giving-out-plans-or-promises" other than 'the official stuff' in SITREPs...

[Opticalsnare 12]

I am not fussed with the less content, less content better quality fine (don't forget we going to have lots of content from mods) but what i would like for is that content to actually work as intended or be even remotely realistic in terms of what future combat & weapon systems will be like.

The overall game design too me is a complete mess, like tank vs tank is pretty unexciting no detailed damage system just ping-pong shots at each other with little thinking till someone hits the other 50 times with its 120mm bb cannon.

BIS could have go into depth with the damage system like you get hit by a tank round which bursts the fuel tank, engine is busted and the tank is on fire but you and your crew are alive, if you decide to bail out you and your mates could get burnt to death so you either gotta make a decision quick to either chance getting burned to death on bailing out or fight on and destroy the enemy before he puts the final blow in.... or you could even go a bit more creative and activate a on-board fire extinguisher system or something.

Poorly balanced weapons is well like all tanks on both sides should have 3 weapons 1x COAX, 1x Main Gun & Turret mounted heavy machine gun.

And ATGM's rules the battlefield with a iron sledge hammer turning everything mobile into a missile magnet, making them completely obsolete, everything from transport helicopters to an APC has the ability to launch these guided demons and its just missile madness, which is somewhat understandable but some form of automatic counter-measures would be nice, after all we are like 30 odd years into the future. And combat vehicles have gone not forwards but backwards in terms of both armament and tech systems.

Tanks could have some kind of anti-missile interceptor.

To me this is like future looking vehicles with weapon systems from the 1960s cold war... The AA Armoured Units have less firepower than they did in 80s.

Its like they didn't even bother to sit down round a table and put some ideas out about what they could implement. It was just like

Tank, Gun.

That's it Done.

And more importantly why is the AI still just stupid bots running about with guns, we have had many AI mods produced by the community which improve their intelligence and use on the field which could have been implemented to make the AI act more human out of the box.

Its a shame that we have got lovely models and maps, but let down with a broken gameplay and design.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Opticalsnare

[icewindo 29]

anounced plan? Lolwut. Are there many games, where devs announce plans at release, or any plans at all?

RTW2 e.g. had alot of problems at release and after the community had stirred them up abit, more detailed plans for patching and acknowledgements of issues were brought up. I kinda expect BIS do this, too. Experience tells different, though.

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/89314-Second-statement-from-CA-on-Rome-II-s-release-(11-Sep-2013)

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/94255-Battle-and-Unit-teams-What-we-are-working-on

Compared to optimization it is a minuscule thing.

So did arma 2, arma is just to long ago now for clear memory.

So you do it all the way again just because it "was the same" for ArmA2?

Nope, that's not an excuse for me. Also the budget for the development should have been way higher for A3 than A2 (DayZ, early access).

[ProfTournesol 956]

RTW2 e.g. had alot of problems at release and after the community had stirred them up abit, more detailed plans for patching and acknowledgements of issues were brought up. I kinda expect BIS do this, too.

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/89314-Second-statement-from-CA-on-Rome-II-s-release-(11-Sep-2013)

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/94255-Battle-and-Unit-teams-What-we-are-working-on

Yep, this is a truely dumbed down game.

[icewindo 29]

Yep, this is a truely dumbed down game.

Yeah, it is. I'll check it out again in a year, maybe with some mods.

[NeuroFunker 11]

RTW2 e.g. had alot of problems at release and after the community had stirred them up abit, more detailed plans for patching and acknowledgements of issues were brought up. I kinda expect BIS do this, too. Experience tells different, though.

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/89314-Second-statement-from-CA-on-Rome-II-s-release-(11-Sep-2013)

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/94255-Battle-and-Unit-teams-What-we-are-working-on

So you do it all the way again just because it "was the same" for ArmA2?

Nope, that's not an excuse for me. Also the budget for the development should have been way higher for A3 than A2 (DayZ, early access).

so, then confirmed free dlc campaign episodes with new weapons, free dlc fixed wing aircrafts, and Marek Spanel personal said: we are going to support our game for at least 2 more years, doesn't sound like a plan for you?