Is the game dumbed down?

[bad benson 1733]

while i'm certainly not a totally hardcore player, i must say that metacraze has a point here and that your arguments are pretty weak. yes the movement is awesome but your statements about the medical stuff are just lazy and backed up with not much (no offense). all the major COOP modes use one of the revive scripts. the most popular one limits reviving to the medic. that is even more "hardcore" than just having medics heal wounded people that can still walk around. it's the same as what people do with pilots. lots of missions limit those via slots. otherwise you will just end up with a lone wolf shooter on a big map. i'm not saying they should only allow pilots to operate aircrafts but that it's all about design and that role based team play is certainly not something that is limited to closed realism groups but is instead more common on public servers than not.

arma is even if you want to say that it's more of a sandbox than a sim now (*sigh*) still a military game, no? it has different infantry roles of which one is a medic, no? so what's the current role of that medic? healing people from 75% to 100% health, while 75% is what you are constantly on since FAKS are EVERYWHERE. and since 75% causes almost no effects at all you might as well remove the medic overall. it's pretty much useless right now.

it should be the other way around. it is very easy for people to make people regenerate health via script in their missions if they really want to play like that. but the FAKs and the "bleeding system" as they are right now are simply bad/lazy game design. they make parts of the game obsolete, so yea...

besides, the configs are filled with stuff that points towards an actual medic system including dragging etc. so it's safe to say that that simply got cut because of a lack of time and resources and is not missing because of well thought through design.

[NeuroFunker 11]

AS i know, everything progresses with the time, and usually the military, gets all the best stuff first. So why in year 2035 there couldn't be medicine and all the stuff, which can heal you pretty good? For example, i know, russian specnaz, has already some medicine, which can give you additional hours to live, when you are really badly wounded, even allowing you to complete tasks, alongside healthy team mates.

And as i said, yes instant healing, is not what i like.

Talking about revive scripts, dude exactly, thats not left for dead, thats arma! Is that realistic, when everyone can revive you, and you can't get killed?

We had a lot of situations in arma 2 coop, where we revived people, and they constantly were shot down, and in next second, we revived them again, and that could be repeated endless times, untill we found and killed the enemy - at the end, the guy who was shot 10 times, gets up and fights along side with you. That is "realistic", for sure! But being able to heal yourself to 75%, thats a big deal!

[dmarkwick 261]

So they tweaked a ballistic/penetration system that was in the series since OFP and I'm not exactly sure how it's different from ArmA2. Amazing.

Unbelievable. Not only are you relentlessly negative about anything you don't even slightly like, but a good feature gets a sniffy response and a sarcastic dismissal. You are incapable of acknowledging anything positive at all.

Care to point me to such a mod? At least a single one?

Make one. Go on, you know how the thing should work, just make it. Do SOMETHING.

[NeuroFunker 11]

Unbelievable. Not only are you relentlessly negative about anything you don't even slightly like, but a good feature gets a sniffy response and a sarcastic dismissal. You are incapable of acknowledging anything positive at all.

Make one. Go on, you know how the thing should work, just make it. Do SOMETHING.

seems like he is gone, to make something :P

[bad benson 1733]

Talking about revive scripts, dude exactly, thats not left for dead, thats arma! Is that realistic, when everyone can revive you, and you can't get killed?

i wasn't talking about realism at all but instead gameplay. just because i partly agreed with metalcraze doesn't mean all my arguments are based on realism. i couldn't care less. i want teamplay be at least as much encouraged as in arma 2. not because arma 2 is the holy grail but because it worked.

what you say about future equipment i find actually interesting. i could imagine somthing like a pressure system in your clothes that stops bleeding. could swear i saw or read about that somewhere. but then again. the soldiers wear just normal not far fetched multicam uniforms. and who really wants a crysis style suit system in vanilla arma?

you have to admit that the FAKs don't fit well in the overall design of the game. i mean there is even a big medical pack for the medic. and still. not once did i get healed by a medic unless i played coop (public) with the BTC revive script where people actually wear red caps and stuff and play as medics and go around reviving people. which is just awesome and increases immersion a lot.

and yes. 75% is a big deal not because i hate random stuff but because of how the wound effects work. 75% practically equals 100% except that is might maybe take one more bullet to kill you. if it would at least be balanced in a way that it would only heal to 20-50% (depending on how the wound effects work now) so you would feel wounded still (shaky aim, increased fatigue), it would actually make sense. it's called "First" aid kit after all.

i find just accepting the FAK system as perfect just because it's convenient is as random as dismissing it because it's not 100% realistic or exactly like arma 2. arma is a game like any other. and some mechanics have a big impact on gameplay.

[PlacidPaul 11]

COOP, this is short for cooperative. How do FAKs contribute to cooperation? Yes, by definition the health system is dumbed down. That's just calling it the way it is. Cooperative play should always be promoted.

Your not going to hear me speak about realism, its a landscape i like to play in, but cooperation is really the heart of the issue. Faks that heal don't really promote any cooperation. Health systems are tricky for sure, but as it is, it takes one person on his own to survive. That's dumb. Faks that don't heal, stop bleeding, or just allow walking, sound much more cooperative.

The development team invested entirely too much time and too many resources in Altis.

This is very interesting, considering i just read how BI thought perhaps too much content went into A2 units. I wish i could remember where i read that. If i where asked (as a arma fan), which is more important, it's tough. I do love big amazing maps, and Altis is that. I guess my answer would be found in where i would rather play and edit, A2. Edited September 17, 2013 by PlacidPaul

[NeuroFunker 11]

Well, ive actually admit, that fak system is not perfect, it could be also difficulty dependent. For example on rookie difficulty, it heals you to 75%, on veteran lets say 40%, on expert 15-20%. I see this would make sense, since difficulty shouldn't be only about "extended armor", AI accuracy, and real time map display of everything around you. Revive might be ok for coop, but i can't imagine it any use in PvP, where it might end up, people farming on you, just by waiting someone to revive you and kill, many times in a row.

[bad benson 1733]

Revive might be ok for coop, but i can't imagine it any use in PvP, where it might end up, people farming on you, just by waiting someone to revive you and kill, many times in a row.

PvP doesn't have to be about the number of kills behind your name. ever played arma 2 insurgency? best game mode ever. promotes tight teamplay and sneaky PvP at the same time while using revive to great effect. you simply have a very narrow definition of PvP. there can be much use for revive in asymetric PvP modes or "realistic" ones in general. revive doesn't have to be endless. it's just a concept. it can be varied. farming is a term that comes from grinding games. i really hope arma never gets that way. once that happens everything else is ruled by how it influences your ability to grind values. the death of any interesting gameplay.

[NeuroFunker 11]

PvP doesn't have to be about the number of kills behind your name. ever played arma 2 insurgency? best game mode ever. promotes tight teamplay and sneaky PvP at the same time while using revive to great effect. you simply have a very narrow definition of PvP. there can be much use for revive in asymetric PvP modes or "realistic" ones in general. revive doesn't have to be endless. it's just a concept. it can be varied. farming is a term that comes from grinding games. i really hope arma never gets that way. once that happens everything else is ruled by how it influences your ability to grind values. the death of any interesting gameplay.

ok, hold on. As far i remember, we were talking about realism. Metal, were caliming, medical system in arma 2, was more realistic then arma 3. How real is revive, in realism spect then?

[dmarkwick 261]

ok, hold on. As far i remember, we were talking about realism. Metal, were caliming, medical system in arma 2, was more realistic then arma 3. How real is revive, in realism spect then?

Metalcraze & ArmA2? My abiding memory of him there is that, surprise surprise, he moaned about everything. Now of course, it's the pinnacle of game realism achievement :)

Was revive a vanilla A2 feature? I thought it was a modded feature?

[bad benson 1733]

i was never talking about realism. i was agreeing with metalcraze on what people play and like and what works, which can be seen by looking at all the major COOP modes and what created good gameplay in the past. i think i made that clear, no? i am not metalcraze (<--look at nickname :p)

I thought it was a modded feature?

arma 2 had a medical module which was the base for all revive scripts (animations and general functionality).

[NeuroFunker 11]

Metalcraze & ArmA2? My abiding memory of him there is that, surprise surprise, he moaned about everything. Now of course, it's the pinnacle of game realism achievement :)

Was revive a vanilla A2 feature? I thought it was a modded feature?

No, you can get badly wounded in vanilla, you are crawling slowly and having all red screen over your face, unable to run and only medic can revive you.

haha, that doesn't make me wonder, he continues his "hobby" :p. Well who know, maybe he simulates the devs a bit, to make arma more realistic, which wouldn't be a bad thing. ;)

---------- Post added at 22:10 ---------- Previous post was at 22:07 ----------

i was never talking about realism. i was agreeing with metalcraze on what people play and like and what works, which can be seen by looking at all the major COOP modes and what created good gameplay in the past. i think i made that clear, no? i am not metalcraze (<--look at nickname :p)

arma 2 had a medical module which was the base for all revive scripts (animations and general functionality).

lol i know, you have at least done something for arma (midrange texture replacement) was using it from alpha3 on. But i see, what he does, is complain only.

I have just told you, that we began on our discussion, about realism aspects in game, plus i remember, you also said, arma 3 faks healing you 75% is not realistic? :P

[PlacidPaul 11]

ok, hold on. As far i remember, we were talking about realism. Metal, were caliming, medical system in arma 2, was more realistic then arma 3. How real is revive, in realism spect then?

I really don't care how "real" it is. It promotes cooperation. I don't even like, but its better than the FAK system.

Yeah, if the game is guarding against kill farming, then it's doomed. What a massive can of uncontrollable worms.

[NeuroFunker 11]

I really don't care how "real" it is. It promotes cooperation. I don't even like, but its better than the FAK system.

Yeah, if the game is guarding against kill farming, then it's doomed. What a massive can of uncontrollable worms.

so, we ended up, discussing, what is better for team play now?

[PlacidPaul 11]

so, we ended up, discussing, what is better for team play now?

No it's more about the FAKs which are dumbed down. It's really what they don't do that's the problem, they don't promote cooperation/team play. At least for me, I can't speak for everyone. Even in SP there's a team.

[NeuroFunker 11]

No it's more about the FAKs which are dumbed down. It's really what they don't do that's the problem, they don't promote cooperation/team play. At least for me, I can't speak for everyone. Even in SP there's a team.

well, one thing realism, another team play. If in armaverse year 2035, ther is canceled comachee heli, uh80 ghosthawk, modeled just by rotor, t-100, which is abandonned black eagle tank. Why can't there be faks, which can heal you that way? I'm not trying to make a "cheap argument" here, but trying to use abit of my fantasy, based on what could be in year 2035.

And like i said, there is already revive script, which works most arma 2 used to work - drag, first aid etc.

[sektor 2]

Why can't there be faks, which can heal you that way? I'm not trying to make a "cheap argument" here, but trying to use abit of my fantasy, based on what could be in year 2035.

Lets not forget Terminator was set in 2029, so, we could have some heavy duty cyborgs also.

@ NeuroFunker, please don't reply at my lame provoking post with a wall of text, i was just trying to be funny.

[katipo66 94]

Why don't the MIL-SIM community get together and promote your gameplay.. why not welcome new players to what's possible and give them a clear option and easy path to see the awesomeness of proper mil-sim gameplay. Surely the mil-sim community is large enough and clever enough to come up with something to help promote the realism aspect of it, maybe they could come under one banner?... I've always been interested and intrigued but never confident enough to join a clan.

So why not come up with a system where people can get a taste of realism and put that to BIS to offer as an option in the game.. I don't know how it might work but I'm imagining some sorts of scenario where the player needs to reach an injured comrade in the heat of a battle, or you need to transport units to somewhere.. Just small tasters of what's possible, I'm not saying you can convert everyone but I'm sure lots of players would enjoy it and maybe be surprised at how the gameplay might be different but still awesome.

We should all start throwing ideas around instead of insults :bounce3:

[sektor 2]

So why not come up with a system where people can get a taste of realism and put that to BIS to offer as an option in the game

Step one - first person view only.

[NeuroFunker 11]

Lets not forget Terminator was set in 2029, so, we could have some heavy duty cyborgs also.

@ NeuroFunker, please don't reply at my lame provoking post with a wall of text, i was just trying to be funny.

I think, we all will have a big laugh, if something similar like in terminator, would happen in reality around that time. Yeah... trying to be funny as well.

---------- Post added at 22:49 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------

Step one - first person view only.

step 0: server difficutly setting.

---------- Post added at 22:50 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------

Why don't the MIL-SIM community get together and promote your gameplay.. why not welcome new players to what's possible and give them a clear option and easy path to see the awesomeness of proper mil-sim gameplay. Surely the mil-sim community is large enough and clever enough to come up with something to help promote the realism aspect of it, maybe they could come under one banner?... I've always been interested and intrigued but never confident enough to join a clan.

So why not come up with a system where people can get a taste of realism and put that to BIS to offer as an option in the game.. I don't know how it might work but I'm imagining some sorts of scenario where the player needs to reach an injured comrade in the heat of a battle, or you need to transport units to somewhere.. Just small tasters of what's possible, I'm not saying you can convert everyone but I'm sure lots of players would enjoy it and maybe be surprised at how the gameplay might be different but still awesome.

We should all start throwing ideas around instead of insults :bounce3:

yeah, agree, we could try find some compromises here.

[bad benson 1733]

so, we ended up, discussing, what is better for team play now?

no. we ended up talking about whatever the hell we want to talk about. if you can only see this as a two sided argument than that is your problem. yes the game got dumbed down when it comes to the medical system. what would've been better is a better more detailed system that can be scaled with difficulty.

and what you bring up against revive as an option (that is, as i stated, used with great success in arma 2 and 3) are non arguments. in arma 2 you could still be killed while being unconscious. there was even a wounded state with really bad aim and very limited movement capabilities. don't lose track of possibilities and valid points because you are too focused on dealing with metalcraze. your sig implies a pattern here that everyone who has ANY type of criticism is a "moaner". you might want to rethink that attitude. all i agree with metalcraze about is that FAKs like they are now dumb down the gameplay and that your "numbers" are not right, which can be seen by how popular missions are set up.

Why can't there be faks, which can heal you that way? I'm not trying to make a "cheap argument" here, but trying to use abit of my fantasy, based on what could be in year 2035.

you are using it as an argument though. and as that it's cheap :p

you are just ignoring the valid points against your vague "i like the faks cause...just cause".

people obviously want something like the arma 2 medical/revive system which is shown by the wide use of scripts that almost 100% emulate it. and while FAKs could expand on that as simply bleed stoppers, they simply replace it with a half assed bleeding system and bad balance overall while making the medic (a vanilla "feature") obsolete in a way that people have to make it useful in their missions again. in addition to that while realism isn't the most important part here, stuff being convincing and making gameplay more interesting certainly is. while for you it might be more convincing to have magical med packs a la quake for others it might be a dedicated medic role, like in a "real" squad, that is needed to keep the mission rolling no matter how many "unrealistic" times you can be revived. what is more convincing? a medically trained squad member or everyone having super awesome future medicine?

that's all i'm saying.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Bad Benson

[-ghost-tf 12]

But i see, what he does, is complain only.

At least he has some valid arguments, all you got is random "statistics" that you pull out your ***.

[metalcraze 290]

Unbelievable. Not only are you relentlessly negative about anything you don't even slightly like, but a good feature gets a sniffy response and a sarcastic dismissal. You are incapable of acknowledging anything positive at all.

This feature has been in the game for a decade. BIS thank you for not cutting out!

Happy now?

Make one. Go on, you know how the thing should work, just make it. Do SOMETHING.

So now I should be fixing BIS game too?

[Variable 322]

lol i know, you have at least done something for arma (midrange texture replacement) was using it from alpha3 on. But i see, what he does, is complain only.

So you need to create addons in order to be entitled to critisize the game now? Metalcraze ha valid arguments, and he is not alone in it, and criticism contributes a lot more than automatic backing up of any design mistake BIS makes, like you do. Ever considered the possibility that BIS themselves don't like the current first aid system and it's there because of lack of time and resources? Thanks to you we might get stuck with it now because you say it is good enough for us.

AS i know, everything progresses with the time, and usually the military, gets all the best stuff first. So why in year 2035 there couldn't be medicine and all the stuff, which can heal you pretty good?

You know this approach of yours, to justify every single flaw in the game, using twisted reasoning like this, doesn't help the discussion, doesn't help BIS and doesn't help the community.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Variable

[dm 9]

So now I should be fixing BIS game too?

Isn't that what you're trying to achieve with your relentless whining anyway?