Is the game dumbed down?

[NeuroFunker 11]

Iwhy do stay in this thread?

cause i want to have some fun, may i?

[-ghost-tf 12]

well, i know that fak is not faq, just in case.

...

if it was confirmed, the it will come sooner or later.

you want BIS AGAIN to annouce 100's of features, then to have another reason to whine, cause they don't have time/powers whatever, to implement it all?

First you say that it will come, then you admit that there is a chance they wont be able to implement it because of "time/powers whatever" and now you say it will come sooner or later.

well, maybe join bi studio, help them to speed up the progress?

Nice one, added to my list of excuses for arma3's flaws, right below "mods will fix it".

[icewindo 29]

seems like we do, but it also seems, some people enjoy repeat all the same stuff over and over, by self copying threads, and nearly the same posts, at every second page.

There alot of valid tickets and issues out there which haven't be fixed at all. What makes you think these will be fixed in a timely fashion when they weren't even touched in the alpha phase?

Having it your way, we stay silent, say a prayer to BIS and hope for the best. Sounds like a good plan.

[katipo66 94]

It seems to me there are only one a few "whiny" persons in this thread, one of them being you. If this agitates you as much as told by your actions, why do stay in this thread?

Good point, this thread is becoming ridiculous like the DR thread, it's at the seeping puss stage where every page is a carbon copy of the other.. those who are strawmen, fanboys and elitists or whatever should just play the game and stay away from this thread so that those concerned can discuss how the game is dumbed down and is no more than cod on big map.

[NeuroFunker 11]

There alot of valid tickets and issues out there which haven't be fixed at all. What makes you think these will be fixed in a timely fashion when they weren't even touched in the alpha phase?

Having it your way, we stay silent, say a prayer to BIS and hope for the best. Sounds like a good plan.

Depends,if everything that some of you whine about, is ALREADY listed in feedback tracker, what is the point to whine about it here? What about, for example creating an more usefull thread, where all most important tickets are listed, request mods, to make it sticky, so people can see them an vote? If there is such thread, could you point me on it?

But instead, your making yourself and other mad, by creating threads, which say absolute the same thing, the other 10 threads do?

---------- Post added at 22:29 ---------- Previous post was at 22:26 ----------

...

First you say that it will come, then you admit that there is a chance they wont be able to implement it because of "time/powers whatever" and now you say it will come sooner or later.

Nice one, added to my list of excuses for arma3's flaws, right below "mods will fix it".

where did i say, they won't do it? Huh. All i said was: they did overpronounce a lot of stuff, which for clear reasons, time, having 2 important dev team held in captivity, whatever other reasons, made NOT in the game YET, will come later, and that YOU or some of you, want to have everything right NOW and at same time.

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------

Good point, this thread is becoming ridiculous like the DR thread, it's at the seeping puss stage where every page is a carbon copy of the other.. those who are strawmen, fanboys and elitists or whatever should just play the game and stay away from this thread so that those concerned can discuss how the game is dumbed down and is no more than cod on big map.

well, we do discuss. But threads like that, as for me, are clearly "lets find another reason to whine".

[-ghost-tf 12]

where did i say, they won't do it? Huh. All i said was: they did overpronounce a lot of stuff, which for clear reasons, time, having 2 important dev team held in captivity, whatever other reasons, made NOT in the game YET, will come later-

Anyway, I'm done wasting my time with you. But dont mind me, feel free to continue troll- eh I mean "having some fun".

[NeuroFunker 11]

feel free to continue troll- eh I mean "having some fun".

out of arguments - ok, i'm wasting my time here, cya! lol so typical.

Thanks by the way.

[icewindo 29]

Depends,if everything that some of you whine about, is ALREADY listed in feedback tracker, what is the point to whine about it here? What about, for example creating an more usefull thread, where all most important tickets are listed, request mods, to make it sticky, so people can see them an vote? If there is such thread, could you point me on it?

Well yep that's a point taken. A thread listing medium to large issues by priority, nice2have etc. The bug tracker can get quite obscure at times. Question remains who would set the priorities and who maintains the thread.

Will see if I can come up with something tomorrow. Although I have to find a new flat first. And no, it's no lame excuse :) .

[NeuroFunker 11]

Well yep that's a point taken. A thread listing medium to large issues by priority, nice2have etc. Question remains who would make the priorities and who maintains the thread.

Will see if I can come up with something tomorrow. Although I have to find a new flat first. And no, it's no lame excuse :) .

hehe, glad you liked my idea :)

we have moderators for that, btw firstly we could make a poll for example: what would you want the DEVS to do nex? We could split cotes at different categories, for examle:

Vote 1 - fixing performance issues (bugs etc)

vote 2 - improving game mechanics/elements (medical system, animation etc)

vote 3 - bringing in more additional content (vehicles, missions, islands, weapons)

vote 3 - none of them (please post your suggestion)

^Thats just a very raw example, but i believe, this would be more helpful, then only discuss only about something.

After poll is ended, we could make a thread, and link there all the issues from most voted category(ies),so people will have a better overview, and help me and you, to show the DEVs, what disturbs the community most.

[Hi Wags here from ED 13]

Did not have to read much to say yes.

In a lot of ways to me it feels like a cheap knock off of ArmA rather than ArmA.....

Its like if the devs of WarZ tried to make a ArmA rip off to cash in on the series and left lots of content out and dumbed it down this is what it would be.

Hopefully down the line it gets better.

[dmarkwick 261]

I realised something earlier. I don't consider the game dumbed down, because I don't do the dumb stuff. People here complain that it's possible to spin while prone (not with my game settings), use FAKs to become immortal (just don't have them in missions), and carry incredible amounts of gear (just.... don't do it?). Well, I never did any of that stuff, and I'm confused that when someone does do it, they are appalled. Also, the fear, the terrifying possibility, that even if they themselves don't do it, that someone somewhere, will.

I guess a better rewording for this thread would be:

"Does this game cater to those who do dumb things?"

[Varanon 892]

You can have an improved medical system simply by removing the FAKs from your missions.

This is an often quoted misconception. Yes, you can remove them from YOUR missions, but every mission will still use them. It's not only about the missions I make, but all the others that let you run around with healing potions in your backpack. The FAKs are currently fundamentally broken, making medics useless roles, thus dumbing down the gameplay.

---------- Post added at 10:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 PM ----------

you want BIS AGAIN to annouce 100's of features,

No, he wanted to have a source for the supposed fixes that will be in the DLC. It's a common pattern here to project your own ideas and hopes into vague comments dropped about what is in or not. Yes, there is a CHANCE that a lot of fixes will be in the DLC. A chance, a "maybe", but some people always make a "sure thing" out of it. Some dev says "We are looking into feature X", and people go "features X, Y and Z will be in the DLC".

Go with what you actually KNOW. You will notice that you KNOW very little, the rest is speculation, but people always say "it's in" and when asked about the source of their knowledge, they just say "it was said somewhere".

---------- Post added at 10:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 PM ----------

Also, i remember dwarden replied at my question, about wind/bullet interraction, that right now it's hard to syncronize in MP, and this will be put for later on, after release. But again, don't expect BIS to talk about this soon, since they don't want make same misstake, about overpronoucing features.

Yes, dwarden once posted an impressive list of features that were postponed to post release. He also CLEARLY said that they are looking into those things, but NO PROMISES that they will come in. Which is fine, I wouldn't say anything else either. But these features are picked up by others and announced to be part of the post-release patches... the little details about no promises is always swept under the rug.

[blu3sman 11]

@DMarwick Following your logic, let devs remove friendly fire. It's ok, cause shooting friendlies is dumb, isnt it?

Same with fatigue. If I carry a lot of stuff should I stop from time to time and pretend that I'm tired?

Thats absurd.

[Varanon 892]

MP sync being hard is BS.

I think in this particular instance, it's mainly the amount of network traffic it will require. Especially since weather (and basically everything else, even time) is not synced over the network at all. And given the MP performance problems that are already in, it might really be hard, not to sync it, but to actually make it work efficiently.

At least that's my guess...

[chortles 263]

No, he wanted to have a source for the supposed fixes that will be in the DLC. It's a common pattern here to project your own ideas and hopes into vague comments dropped about what is in or not. Yes, there is a CHANCE that a lot of fixes will be in the DLC. A chance, a "maybe", but some people always make a "sure thing" out of it. Some dev says "We are looking into feature X", and people go "features X, Y and Z will be in the DLC".

Go with what you actually KNOW. You will notice that you KNOW very little, the rest is speculation, but people always say "it's in" and when asked about the source of their knowledge, they just say "it was said somewhere".

No wonder there's so much "NO promises" from the devs nowadays... though I'm also left thinking of "September 12 priorities".

[Varanon 892]

if it was confirmed, then it will come sooner or later.

Well, it wasn't confirmed, that's the point.

But oh, you just want it ALL at same time, well, maybe join bi studio, help them to speed up the progress?

Who said they wanted it all in at the same time ? Right, no one. I'd personally be happy with at least a confirmation that there are definite plans to bring back a halfway decent medical system, but there is no confirmation of any plan of that kind.

Get it all at the same time ? What the heck are you talking about ?

---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ----------

No wonder there's so much "NO promises" from the devs nowadays... though I'm also left thinking of "September 12 priorities".

"No promises" is a standard answer, and hardly something "nowadays". We got those answers from day one, so don't try to fire off a cheap shot by making it a "recent development", because, you know "people whine so much". Being a software developer myself, it's the answer I give every customer when asked about, for example, timeframes.

The point was, though, that there was to the best of my knowledge not even a "no promises" about the medic system.

As I said, a "no promises" confirmation of a revised medic system would already go a long way. During the alpha/beta, what frustrated me the most was that for a lot of feedback given, there was no feedback returned. Not even a confirmation that issues are really seen as being issues. I tired to communicate that to the devs in private messages, and the answer was mostly "we try to improve that", but the result wasn't really satisfactory (understandable considering the workload, but still rather frustrating).

---------- Post added at 11:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 PM ----------

seems like we do, but it also seems, some people enjoy repeat all the same stuff over and over, by self copying threads, and nearly the same posts, at every second page.

And some people deny that list, deny that the medic system is broken and claim it's fine like it is. If threads are repeated over and over again, then it's because BOTH sides repeat over and over again. It always goes two way, something people like to conveniently neglect to notice or mention

---------- Post added at 11:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 PM ----------

There alot of valid tickets and issues out there which haven't be fixed at all.

Indeed. Some are even still "new" and not even acknowledged. A lot of those tickets have insane vote counts, which shows how much weight people give those issues. But still, not addressed or even acknowledged.

Having it your way, we stay silent, say a prayer to BIS and hope for the best. Sounds like a good plan.

Yeah, after all, we got an alpha/beta phase just to get early access, feedback wasn't required... or was it ?

[bad benson 1733]

I guess a better rewording for this thread would be:

"Does this game cater to those who do dumb things?"

hm. i agree with taking things not too serious but here you kinda lost me. we are talking about game design decisions here that sculpt the overall experience. i mean if you really want to, you could make light of everything in the way you do but what's the point? just to disagree? i dunno man. i kind of find this post a total oversimplification of things and kind of narrow in its view on what the gameplay of arma is. you don't really seem to consider MP and MP balance as an important factor. i'm just speculating but you sound like your focus is more on SP and not so much COOP and MP in general. that's fine but it only means that your personal priorities are different. nothing more. no need to belittle other's points telling them they are just doing dumb shit. it makes no sense.

icewindo's video shows pretty well that it's a simple fact that the medic system is dumbed down whether you have a problem with that or not. i don't know why we have to get hung up on the definition of dumbed down again. might be just me.

Depends,if everything that some of you whine about, is ALREADY listed in feedback tracker, what is the point to whine about it here?

it's funny you say that. one or two pages back we had a nice talk about what would be cool and what we'd like to see. interesting how everyone who disagrees with your general perception that those who might not agree 100% with every part of arma 3 are "whiney". did you ever think that YOU might be the unreasonable person that repeats non constructive stuff over and over? i dunno. possible?

it also seems like the people who have this infinite urge to disagree don't realize that no one tells them they are wrong or that their view on certain features is unreasonable. it generally goes the other way around. if you like the game as is 100% then fine. no one is telling you to not do that. but why tell others what to do and how to view things? i don't get it...

Edited September 19, 2013 by Bad Benson

[Varanon 892]

I don't consider the game dumbed down, because I don't do the dumb stuff. People here complain that it's possible to spin while prone (not with my game settings), use FAKs to become immortal (just don't have them in missions), and carry incredible amounts of gear (just.... don't do it?). Well, I never did any of that stuff, and I'm confused that when someone does do it, they are appalled. Also, the fear, the terrifying possibility, that even if they themselves don't do it, that someone somewhere, will.

Even if you don't take too much gear: The problem with mission making is finding a good balance. Missions should be doable, but not too easy. They should be hard, but not so hard that you can't beat them. So in essence, you need to carefully place enemies, based on the knowledge of the possible gear people will have. Now consider someone picking up grenades from every dead soldier he finds. You can easily carry 60 grenades in your backpack. You wouldn't do that, you say... so, you got to cover a spectrum of a player having a realistic amount of grenades (say, 4) and a player having a ridiculous amount of grenades (say, 40).

I hope this explanation is clear (English is not my native language). I hope it outlines the difficulties you'll be faced with as a mission designer. This might not be an issue for things like Wastleand that play completely different from the usual single or multiplayer/coop types of games. But it will be a big issue for any single player mission, campaign, or MP mission that relies on any sort of balance.

[dmarkwick 261]

This is an often quoted misconception. Yes, you can remove them from YOUR missions, but every mission will still use them. It's not only about the missions I make, but all the others that let you run around with healing potions in your backpack. The FAKs are currently fundamentally broken, making medics useless roles, thus dumbing down the gameplay.

There's no misconception there, I mean what I wrote, your missions. If someone designs a mission that requires FAKs for whatever reason, then that's a mission designer's prerogative. Like MC before you - why do you want to change EVERY mission that's made? Are you going to play them all? You play the missions that suit you & your playing style surely? I maintain its a perfectly valid response.

@DMarwick Following your logic, let devs remove friendly fire. It's ok, cause shooting friendlies is dumb, isnt it?

Same with fatigue. If I carry a lot of stuff should I stop from time to time and pretend that I'm tired?

Thats absurd.

I think you're confused there & have attributed the opposite philosophy to me :)

hm. i agree with taking things not too serious but here you kinda lost me. we are talking about game design decisions here that sculpt the overall experience. i mean if you really want to, you could make light of everything in the way you do but what's the point? just to disagree? i dunno man. i kind of find this post a total oversimplification of things and kind of narrow in its view on what the gameplay of arma is. you don't really seem to consider MP and MP balance as an important factor. i'm just speculating but you sound like your focus is more on SP and not so much COOP and MP in general. that's fine but it only means that your personal priorities are different. nothing more. no need to belittle other's points telling them they are just doing dumb shit. it makes no sense.

All I said was: I don't do any of that dumb stuff, and therefore I don't see it as dumbed down. If you do dumb stuff, then you do dumb stuff. Should the game stop you? And by "dong dumb stuff" we're talking about reasons the game is "dumbed down" right? You cannot use that expression without conceding that doing that stuff when you don't have to is dumb. MP balance isn't a factor because all players have the same ruleset, what is a factor is a sense of "fair play", which I can agree with. Forcing a set of rules to stop people doing dumb stuff is what we're talking about there, but does that make the game dumbed down?

icewindo's video shows pretty well that it's a simple fact that the medic system is dumbed down whether you have a problem with that or not. i don't know why we have to get hung up on the definition of dumbed down again. might be just me.

Because dumbed down implies a deliberate design decision to do just that. :) But as you say, it's an opinion.

Even if you don't take too much gear: The problem with mission making is finding a good balance. Missions should be doable, but not too easy. They should be hard, but not so hard that you can't beat them. So in essence, you need to carefully place enemies, based on the knowledge of the possible gear people will have. Now consider someone picking up grenades from every dead soldier he finds. You can easily carry 60 grenades in your backpack. You wouldn't do that, you say... so, you got to cover a spectrum of a player having a realistic amount of grenades (say, 4) and a player having a ridiculous amount of grenades (say, 40).

Well I might argue that it might be possible to cram 60 grenades into a backpack. I haven't tried it, but it doesn't sound "unrealistic". I might agree with a weight-movement penalty for that though. I don't suggest the game cannot be improved :) I only suggest it's not dumbed down.

I hope this explanation is clear (English is not my native language). I hope it outlines the difficulties you'll be faced with as a mission designer. This might not be an issue for things like Wastleand that play completely different from the usual single or multiplayer/coop types of games. But it will be a big issue for any single player mission, campaign, or MP mission that relies on any sort of balance.

Your English is perfectly fine :)

But as you mentioned mission design, I would hazard a guess that for the most part, unrealistic loadout/movement issues arise from missions that have an initial weapon + ammo grab in the form of ammo crates yes? Weapon crate grabbing is not really good mission design for realistic missions IMO.

[bad benson 1733]

All I said was: I don't do any of that dumb stuff, and therefore I don't see it as dumbed down. If you do dumb stuff, then you do dumb stuff. Should the game stop you? And by "dong dumb stuff" we're talking about reasons the game is "dumbed down" right? You cannot use that expression without conceding that doing that stuff when you don't have to is dumb. MP balance isn't a factor because all players have the same ruleset, what is a factor is a sense of "fair play", which I can agree with. Forcing a set of rules to stop people doing dumb stuff is what we're talking about there, but does that make the game dumbed down?[...]Because dumbed down implies a deliberate design decision to do just that. But as you say, it's an opinion.

sorry but what do you even mean by all that? you can't do the things you could do in arma 2, yes? there's nothing implied here. it's a simple "hey it was good, it was fun, why did you remove it? could you please consider readding it? could you maybe consider the following improvements?" there is no implication. it's all in your head.

i really don't get why some people have the urge to protect BI from any kind of criticism. it's so pointless. if i would have made an insulting thread then yea sure. but i didn't. i'm a total fanboy and veteran of the series. all i'm doing is pointing out stuffs. you on the other hand are reading bad intentions into that and have, like others, the urge to find reasoning to make that stuff look like it's unreasonable. why? did you ever ask yourself about the real motives behind posts like that? all that twisting of words. all it does is divide people into camps they don't even belong to just because you can't take constructive criticism that isn't even directed at you but at BI.

i still fail to see the point. sorry. all i see you doing is trying to force your opinion on others by using weird reasoning. no offense. i just don't get the point. if you are fine with every detail then fine. i din't whine neither did i accuse BI of anything. and i certainly don't tell you how wrong you are by liking what you like.

EDIT: i agree there might be some implication in the title of this thread taken just on its own that i don't see because i'm not a native speaker. but i think some parts of the past pages made clear where people stand and why, so no need to just focus on that to make a point.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Bad Benson

[-Coulum- 35]

I realised something earlier. I don't consider the game dumbed down, because I don't do the dumb stuff. People here complain that it's possible to spin while prone (not with my game settings), use FAKs to become immortal (just don't have them in missions), and carry incredible amounts of gear (just.... don't do it?). Well, I never did any of that stuff, and I'm confused that when someone does do it, they are appalled. Also, the fear, the terrifying possibility, that even if they themselves don't do it, that someone somewhere, will.

I guess a better rewording for this thread would be:

"Does this game cater to those who do dumb things?"

I disagree with you here. When a game is dumbed down, imo, it means it requires less thinking to be successful.

If you are looking at things from a purely competitive POV, you not using FAKs or limiting your turn speed or gear is actually the dumb action - you are not taking advantage of all your tools.

You cannot use that expression without conceding that doing that stuff when you don't have to is dumb.

Ah but theres the thing. On competive/gameplay side of things, its not a dumb action. Its taking advantage of a dumb system - which is smart if you want to win.

I understand not everybody plays for competition, me included, but I find that competition and challenge (of the thinking sort) is important for immersion as well.

So when the challenge doesn't really require that much thinking because features are dumbed down, it ruins my immersion. Maybe others don't suffer from this.

Many players want to be forced to be challenged because they find it fun to "solve" the game using every means avaialble to them. If the game gives these players easy/dumb ways of succeeding, the lack of fulfilling/immersive/thoughtful/etc. gameplay is the games fault, not the players imo. Roleplaying is not a satisfying option for these players, even if it is for you.

All that being said I must say that some of these problems aren't quite as big as they are made out to be. For example I cannot and have never seen someone 360 headshot someone in arma - maybe its because of poor fps, but I still find that its pretty hard to do. On the other hand FAKs and gear are exploited on a regular basis - yes I know missions can do this and that, but I think its best we stick to what is possible in a vanilla mission. We're judging the game (of which FAKs and encumbrance system are apart of), not other people's or our own variations of the game, if that makes any sense.

Edited September 20, 2013 by -Coulum-

[Smurf 12]

Don't game the game. Is that you want to say?

[metalcraze 290]

Ah but theres the thing. On competive/gameplay side of things, its not a dumb action. Its taking advantage of a dumb system - which is smart if you want to win.

Sadly this perspective seems to elude BIS defense squad for some reason.

"Don't do stupid stuff yourself, roleplay like there are actually limits" - well if I won't do stupid stuff everybody else still will and I will be at a disadvantage and it will be my fault only versus BIS fault for allowing it in the first place.

And this doesn't mean PvP only. Game rules are dumbed down, people make use of them because this is not any cheating for which you can get banned, it's all legit in ArmA3 now. But I should be inferior to everybody else on the server just so I can close my eyes and repeat "there's no dumbing down it's all a mirage" mantra? What DMarkwick suggests is that I should be hitting walk combo every time I'm shot in the leg and switching to jog only after I'm healed exclusively by a medic. Funny,

Edited September 20, 2013 by metalcraze

[Harbinger2456 10]

I think in this particular instance, it's mainly the amount of network traffic it will require. Especially since weather (and basically everything else, even time) is not synced over the network at all. And given the MP performance problems that are already in, it might really be hard, not to sync it, but to actually make it work efficiently.

At least that's my guess...

And yet they've had HOW many years to study this?

[David77 10]

Put simply, "dumbing down" means to intentionally reduce the complexity of a gameplay mechanic (or to remove it entirely).

Considering that the advanced wounding/medical and battlefield clearance modules were removed in ARMA3 without any kind of replacement, I'd say that fits the description of dumbing down.

And since getting shot/wounded/killed is a pretty central theme to a military game, it's fair to say the game has been dumbed down. (Especially since there aren't many elements where complexity has been increased.)

How can the game as a whole be considered dumbed down when the mission makers / scripters are ultimately the ones who dictate just how authentic, real or un-realistic scenarios can be? Whether or not to use FAKs or writing a "realistic" wounding system etc. Whether or not to have respawns. Whether or not a medic can even treat such terrible wounds to begin with. How much and what types of weapons and ammo can be carried. How units handle damage.

The game hasn't strayed too far from its original core (OFP). I do think missions themselves can be considered to dumb the game down. Maybe I want to be invincible & don't want to take any damage at all? Or maybe I want to give units infinite FAKs? Or just maybe, I'll do away with all of that and make a realistic mission. Maybe once you're shot and killed, that's all she wrote... Maybe I realize that even the most diverse wounding system that's ever been in the franchise isn't even close to being realistic.

I consider some elements in the game changed rather than dumbed down. Honestly, in one example concerning the FAKs, what's the difference between a medic healing a person up so they're all fine & dandy or using a FAK? They're both far from realistic ( to an extent ). Hypothetical - *gasps* BI recently put in the command allowDammage (not really, they did that long ago). The game's dumbed down! Because players now have the OPPROTUNITY to be invincible!

Edited September 20, 2013 by David77