Is the game dumbed down?

[Sealife 22]

Yes game is dumbed down but to no real detrement

Flight model especially is one aspect that is dumbed down but I hold some hope .

Destruction model of buildings is another major dumb down , from rtm and proxied damage back to Arma 1 particle and ruins

There are more but I belueve these will be my worst case

[-Coulum- 35]

Yes, I am on record as having agreed that some features are lacking but as you rightly say that's a long way from saying the whole game is dumbed down.

Yep we are definitely on the same wavelength then.

..or how about the crawling corpse that is this?

Damn forgot about that one. Yep, that takes the cake. But really any threads that have two sides with different views inevitably end up this way. The way of the internet I suppose.

Regarding this thread, a question I am interested to know the answer to is whether the simplifications made to feautures of the game were for "accessibility" reasons or due to lack of resources. I am thinking (and hoping) the latter, but sometimes I have my doubts.

[bad benson 1733]

Yes, I am on record as having agreed that some features are lacking but as you rightly say that's a long way from saying the whole game is dumbed down.

anyone saying the whole game is dumbed down or that arma 2 is better can't be taken seriously. i tried to play arma 2 again but i just can't go back to those awkward wax figures and those anims. not to mention the lighting is just bad in several times of the day. and the difference is even bigger if you are mostly modding the game. it's arma 2 +. i can't think of anything you can't do in arma 3 that you can do in arma 2. it's the other way around. can't wait for all the AI changes being added again. it's been a while *sigh*. after that everyone prefering arma 2 does so either for mods or nostalgic reasons.

so yea. i personally initially joined in on this thread because of bad posts by certain people that had to be addressed and not because i agree with whatever the title of the thread tries to say. i can only repeat again. if people are unable to see features being criticized separately and put everyone who has certain concerns in the same pot as people who simply hate on the game then that's their lack of ability to distinguish.

again Coulum speaks my mind 100%.

anyways. let's keep it up. i'm sure we can reach 40 pages without saying anything new :p

Destruction model of buildings is another major dumb down , from rtm and proxied damage back to Arma 1 particle and ruins

i hope you mean the way the vanilla buildings are set up and not what can be used by mods. if rtms are not allowed anymore, i stand corrected about the whole "can do everything you could in arma 2 and more". i hope not.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Bad Benson

[metalcraze 290]

Regarding this thread, a question I am interested to know the answer to is whether the simplifications made to feautures of the game were for "accessibility" reasons or due to lack of resources. I am thinking (and hoping) the latter, but sometimes I have my doubts.

The sole fact that BIS is not announcing anything related to returning ArmA3 gameplay to form and there are no WIP changes to any of the dumbed down stuff on dev branch and that they didn't do anything to remove dumbing down during 6 months of community QA means that sadly it's not due to a lack of resources.

You don't need any major resources to set any reasonable carry limits, bring back the sun glare or remove auto-flip in 6 months. Thus it's all on purpose.

Sadly BIS is incapable of learning from other simulations which give a variety of options for casual players without compromising any of the core game, dumbing down the whole game instead leaving no choice for non-casual players.

Edited September 23, 2013 by metalcraze

[NeuroFunker 11]

you say the game is dumbed down, and IGN gives arma 3 a 7, cause it's a hard to learn game. Now get a clue.

[clydefrog 3]

you say the game is dumbed down, and IGN gives arma 3 a 7, cause it's a hard to learn game. Now get a clue.

So what? Just because they think it's hard to learn doesn't mean parts of it aren't more simple or "dumbed down" than they were in Arma 2.

Edited September 23, 2013 by clydefrog

[icewindo 29]

you say the game is dumbed down, and IGN gives arma 3 a 7, cause it's a hard to learn game. Now get a clue.

Yep what clydefrog said.

Also the tutorial missions were better in ArmA2 imo.

In A3 there's no "bootcamp" type tutorials, in the sample missions you start directly in the action and new players might need a more close hand to guide them I guess.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Icewindo

[NeuroFunker 11]

So what? Just because they think it's hard to learn doesn't mean parts of it aren't more simple or "dumbed down" than they were in Arma 2.

explain me, what do you understand by dumbed down then?

[clydefrog 3]

explain me, what do you understand by dumbed down then?

Simplified basically, made to be more easy/simple/in some cases less realistic perhaps to make it more accessible. It's not me who's saying things are dumbed down, I'm just telling you that just because IGN said it's hard to learn that doesn't mean that parts of it aren't more simplified than Arma 2.

[Hellbeard 10]

It's the worst of both worlds. Dumbed down enough to not satisfy the core audience that loves the franchise but complicated enough to deter the wide audience of shooter players.

If things are hard to learn, but the mastery of them is satisfying and interesting bringing new play horizons and possibilities, then it's worth it. It's the superior gameplay experience in my view.

If things are complicated to master but learning them brings you to a place, gameplay wise, that you were at to begin with like in COD or BF or whatevs- you have missed your mark.

Things like extra health/armor, balancing ammo for gameplay rather than realistic effect and crippling tanks so they don't have too much power are a poison to the ArmA game playing experience.

I guess it's a strategic decision though. Time will tell if they make more money because of it and I can enjoy mods that fix it like ACE then more power to them. In my opinion it's the opposite direction to what ArmA should take.

[NeuroFunker 11]

Simplified basically, made to be more easy/simple/in some cases less realistic perhaps to make it more accessible. It's not me who's saying things are dumbed down, I'm just telling you that just because IGN said it's hard to learn that doesn't mean that parts of it aren't more simplified than Arma 2.

so, imagine all the newcoming people, and game reviews, if arma 3 were even harder then arma 3?

[metalcraze 290]

Quit it buddy. IGN complains about the lack of the tutorial and a crappy interface as the reason for it being tough to learn (duh). Which is not exactly giving your argument any kind of strength.

[clydefrog 3]

so, imagine all the newcoming people, and game reviews, if arma 3 were even harder then arma 3?

So, if I understand you correctly, you think they are right to make things more basic such as what people are complaining about in here (the first aid system etc.) to make it easier for people new to the game? So you've gone from saying it's not dumbed down to agreeing with dumbing down by saying it should be so it's easier for people? I think you're not even thinking about what you're saying and are just blindly defending everything for some odd reason.

Edited September 23, 2013 by clydefrog

[ProfTournesol 956]

The least we can say is that the UI is cluncky. I'm still struggling with it despite 12 years of experience. It was acceptable in OFP (while already complex), but now it's incredibly user unfriendly. I can't believe it can't be reworked.

[bad benson 1733]

So, if I understand you correctly, you think they are right to make things more basic such as what people are complaining about in here (the first aid system etc.) to make it easier for people new to the game?

just let him talk. he doesn't have half a clue what he's saying most of the time. it's wasted effort trying to find any kind of reasoning in his statements. he gets served his own bs left and right and it still doesn't keep him from posting. he's either an obvious troll or has no clue. i say both. very fitting signature...

[NeuroFunker 11]

So, if I understand you correctly, you think they are right to make things more basic such as what people are complaining about in here (the first aid system etc.) to make it easier for people new to the game? So you've gone from saying it's not dumbed down to agreeing with dumbing down by saying it should be so it's easier for people? I think you're not even thinking about what you're saying and are just blindly defending everything for some odd reason.

dumbed down, and more open/accessisble towards new players, aren't the same words for me. Even more, we a small group of players, failing more often in coopying random arma 3 missions, as we used to do in arma 2 ace. If arma 3 would be dumbed down, i guess we would not ever waste a hour or 2, since we were enjoying the difficulty and so to say brutality of arma 2 with ace. Yet i and we do enjoy arma 3 over and over, and nothing dumped down, comes to our mind playing this.

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:42 ----------

just let him talk. he doesn't have half a clue what he's saying most of the time. it's wasted effort trying to find any kind of reasoning in his statements. he gets served his own bs left and right and it still doesn't keep him from posting. he's either an obvious troll or has no clue. i say both. very fitting signature...

now you are trying to insult me or what? I weren't even talking to you, if you say, you put me in ignore list, which obviosly you didn't, why bother replying posts, related to me? Like i said, you can't backup what you saying.

[clydefrog 3]

just let him talk. he doesn't have half a clue what he's saying most of the time. it's wasted effort trying to find any kind of reasoning in his statements. he gets served his own bs left and right and it still doesn't keep him from posting. he's either an obvious troll or has no clue. i say both. very fitting signature...

Yeah I realised this long before now but ah well. And yes I think he probably permanently looks like the smilie in his sig.

dumbed down, and more open/accessisble towards new players, aren't the same words for me. Even more, we a small group of players, failing more often in coopying random arma 3 missions, as we used to do in arma 2 ace. If arma 3 would be dumped down, i guess we would not ever waste a hour or 2, since we were enjoying the difficulty and so to say brutality of arma 2 with ace. Yet i and we do enjoy arma 3 over and over, and nothing dumped down, comes to our mind playing this.

Well dumbing down for most people in this scenario isn't about AI difficulty, and it is more about what I said.

Here's some quotes of the meaning of dumbing down for you, so you know what it means as you currently don't:

The term dumbing down describes the deliberate diminishment of the intellectual level of the content of schooling and education, of literature and cinema, and of news and culture. The idea of and the term dumbing down originated in 1933 as slang, used by motion picture screenplay writers, to mean: "revise so as to appeal to those of little education or intelligence."[1]

Verb

to dumb down (third-person singular simple present dumbs down, present participle dumbing down, simple past and past participle dumbed down)

(idiomatic, transitive) To convey some subject matter in simple terms, avoiding technical or academic language, especially in a way that is considered condescending.

or in other words, make it simpler for people who don't understand it. Do you understand yet or shall I dumb it down for you?

[NeuroFunker 11]

Yeah I realised this long before now but ah well. And yes I think he probably permanently looks like the smilie in his sig.

Well dumbing down for most people in this scenario isn't about AI difficulty, and it is more about what I said.

Here's some quotes of the meaning of dumbing down for you, so you know what it means as you currently don't:

or in other words, make it simpler for people who don't understand it. Do you understand yet or shall I dumb it down for you?

ofcuorse, dumbing down in a dumbing down thread, sounds very reasonable to me.

[icewindo 29]

Quoting this here, hope Icebreakr doesn't flog me for that, but it's a good summary of A3's state imo.

The picture he used to introduce his blog post (http://www.icebreakr.info/) is all the more funny (and sad at the same time)

-------------

Oh gosh, no easy way to say this...

but here it goes: I'm rather dissapointed with the state that Arma 3 is currently in. Along with many teammates that I share my squadnights with. What state exactly am I talking about? More "beta feeling" than ever before (decade of previous titles: A1,A2,OFP). We got a 1.0xxx release (final) with missing furniture from all of the buildings, some buildings even have no damage models (or tank shells are bugged, dunno yet), no female characters (even civilians), futuristic weaponry that I would gladly change for some of the current stuff on market (I'm an avid real-steel fan), etc.

On the other hand we have some serious advances and nifty features, but I'm more of a gameplay guy than "candy"-lover. We got a huge Altis island that is really well done (kudos to author/s) but not a single transportation plane to use its airstrips (choppers and other vehicles are way too slow). Not to mention serious bugs, like placable editor objects that have unfinished models...

Therefore I've decided I will wait with conversion of my A2 islands at least until game gets patched up to more "serious" state and/or we get updated mapmaking tools. I EXPLICITELY DO NOT ALLOW any of my work being used in Arma 3 game, nor any reverse engineering (debinarizing, dePBOing, editing for private/team/public use). I do not feel that Arma 3 game captures a "right mil-sim feeling" in current state.

It feels a lot more BF-ish to me (main reason is probably because of unit/side balancing that should really not happen ever in a true modern military simulation). But I know that Bohemia has a capable team and never leaves community behind. They will surely patch up the game and properly assist the modding community and make A3 a true successor to a classic game that A2 is. We just need to give them time. I'll be leaving on a short roadtrip (armed with a brand new A3-capable laptop, hehe) and have eyes on the A3 progress. Semper Fidelis, yours truly.

[dav 22]

Quit it buddy. IGN complains about the lack of the tutorial and a crappy interface as the reason for it being tough to learn (duh). Which is not exactly giving your argument any kind of strength.

Ign who give Fifa a 9.0 even though it's a duplicate of 13 previous versions.

[bad benson 1733]

Ign who give Fifa a 9.0 even though it's a duplicate of 13 previous versions.

which automatically makes arma's clunky UI totally awesome and well crafted...

[dav 22]

which automatically makes arma's clunky UI totally awesome and well crafted...

Sorry I'm not following you there the UI is fine. Get Vac software and you don't need all those number sequences, it adds to the ease of use and immersion.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Sorry I'm not following you there the UI is fine. Get Vac software and you don't need all those number sequences, it adds to the ease of use and immersion.

I suppose it's a matter of taste, but the UI isn't "fine", we get used to it.

Edited September 23, 2013 by ProfTournesol

[katipo66 94]

Sorry I'm not following you there the UI is fine. Get Vac software and you don't need all those number sequences, it adds to the ease of use and immersion.

VAC is awesome, haven't got it working perfect yet but have had a taste, great option.

[das attorney 858]

i will put it shortly again so maybe it'll sink in this time: i want inbuilt dragging, carrying and reviving (yes unrealistic reviving) because it enriches gameplay. and maybe more that builds on that (arma 2) instead of cutting from it. and i want FAKs to be what makes sense. bleed stoppers combined with bleeding that actually creates a need for that. not because it's more realistic but because of the gameplay implications. yes dayZ "medical system" is much better. not because it's realistic to heal yourself with meat but because of the way it influences how people play.

This is basically what I've been thinking since someway through the beta, but not been able to put my words into a coherent statement like that. Many people are asking for realistic system, but imo that's too much for me as an individual to enjoy in a computer game. Any sort of gameplay like you describe in your quote there is infinitely more preferable to me than either hardcore medical simulation (which would take hours to do and not much fun for the patient), OR the kind of system where you can auto heal on your own with a magic fak.

Anything that promotes interaction with purpose between people can lead to excellent emergent gameplay. I was hoping Arma would explore this (maybe with a different medical system and cooperative behaviours like making the mortar/spotter team or AT team worth playing in pairs) just as examples. It seems a missed opportunity to me, which is a shame.

I don't feel really angry about A3 (more the opposite in fact) but find it hard to comment objectively as there have been many unnecessarily angry people posting and it is an unsavoury atmosphere in here at times.

I accept that many people have legitimate complaints at the game, but there are also many who just shitpost and it is hard to take it seriously. Most of the ones who do this talk of playing OFP back in 2001, which makes them in their mid 30's or even older now. I'm also getting on a bit but I find it hard to rage that hard over a computer game.