Is the game dumbed down?

[froggyluv 2136]

- What seems to be lowered damage system - that incl. being able to jump from a roof with a ridiculous load which doesn't kill you

Did you really prefer the arma2 system in which the smallest falls would break your leg or kill you? Ok, maybe your right in that it could be tweaked a little better for height but using Fall mod beats all current and previous iterations. Why do people think Arma 2 mannequin movement is so realistic? Are you all THAT out of shape? Im almost 43 and I guarantee I can do double speed every animation that Arma 2 is capable of -get off your PC's and go work out for Christs sake.

[David77 10]

Honestly, how many you think will actually do that? Most mission makers use the default loadout which include them, meaning most of the missions released will use this degrading feature. Wouldn't you agree?

Not to mention the lack of BIS first aid system which in my opinion was great.

Alot will. Alot of mission designers / scripters like to make things as realistic as possible. Removing FAKs will just be another routine for the init.sqf... Lol.

Edited September 11, 2013 by David77

[Ch3v4l13r 1]

Cyper you seem to be a bit of a elitist. Just chill, Its still the same game with the same mechanics for the most part. And im sure that all the things that have been "dumbed down" can be smarted up by the modding community. You claim to be part of the community, so why do you care about what vanilla has, its not like anyone plays ARMA vanilla in the ARMA community.

[katipo66 94]

Playing vanilla from time to time is like spring cleaning the house :)

[froggyluv 2136]

Playing vanilla from time to time is like spring cleaning the house :)

I'm so modded up that playing vanilla itself feels like a mod!

[adanteh 58]

Haha all this DayZ hatred cracks me up. Get over yourself dude.

But there was never a single hacker before DayZ! No teamkilling either or people not playing the objective. Everyone was always cooperating at all times! Especially public servers were teamwork-heaven right from the get-go! DayZ ruined it all! DayZ forces me to play bad gamemodes, DayZ suddenly broke my ability to install mods, DayZ is obviously the cause of changes in things like FAKS and interatia, because there isn't a standalone DayZ version coming out! All the DayZ hatred is a bit silly.

Anyway, the people that care a lot about inertia are the same people that use mods like ACE and so anyway. Nothing changes for you, except that ACE will now have a inertia module. Seeing metalcraze is obviously a die-hard Arma vet he'll mostly play custom missions and ofcourse it's impossible to not include FAKs in missions. I wouldn't mind a more advanced first aid system though, but I can't remember ever using that on a vanilla public server anyway.

Anyway, have you realized that sandbox setting also allows for stuff that you might not enjoy yourself metalcraze? DayZ didn't bring DayZ players to the arma community. DayZ made a new community called the DayZ community. I wouldn't worry all too much about those players ruining your milsim action.

I agree on the sun though, that one could've been a bit brighter if you ask me.

[chrisb 196]

To the thread title: Yes..;)

Does it matter! Not really, may be a tad disappointing to some, me included, but really I was expecting it to be like this from a good while back. BI do what they have to do to keep it all going, so its understandable.

A2 exists and has plenty of life still left in there, that’s where I will be spending my mission time for now.

Sightseeing in A3 though, is great.

Edited September 11, 2013 by ChrisB

[dmarkwick 261]

Honestly, how many you think will actually do that? Most mission makers use the default loadout which include them, meaning most of the missions released will use this degrading feature. Wouldn't you agree?

Not to mention the lack of BIS first aid system which in my opinion was great.

I already said some people refuse to believe that mission designers will ever do that, to need to come right back with exactly what I just said :)

I'm not interested in whether most missions released will be with FAKs, as I won't play most missions. Most people won't play most missions :) I'm expecting the missions I do play to have sensible loadouts and equipments.

[-ghost-tf 12]

1) Its a beta

2) ITS A BETA

3) lets not pass judgement on a... wait for it..... beta.

Sigh.. I cant wait till that argument becomes invalid.. Only 11 hours 36 minutes and 21 seconds.

FAKs can of course be removed by mission designers for the would-be FAKless. However its a great complaint point to raise again & again endlessly, and refuse to believe that mission designers would ever do that.

The question was "Is the game dumbed down?". And people answered by mentioning the FAKs, because the medical aspect of the game has indeed been dumbed down. Since every unit in arma3 has a FAK and vehicles got alot of them it would be pretty annoying for a mission maker to remove them for every mission he makes (even for units that get spawned in you need to removed the FAKs), so yeah I dont think alot of missionmakers would bother. But still if you keep following this logic, nothing in arma3 will ever get improved/fixed. Something broken? Fix it yourself, or let some missionmaker/modmaker fix it for you..

Why do people think Arma 2 mannequin movement is so realistic? Are you all THAT out of shape?

I think you misunderstood it. The arma3 movement is currently so ridiculous that those people (including me)prefer the "Arma 2 mannequin movement".

Alot will. Alot of mission designers / scripters like to make things as realistic as possible. Removing FAKs will just be another routine for the init.sqf... Lol.

Yeah, because why would we need/want an improved medical system if missionmakers can just unfuck the current system.. Great job man, keep on defending the flaws of A3.

You claim to be part of the community, so why do you care about what vanilla has, its not like anyone plays ARMA vanilla in the ARMA community.

lol.

[Westonsammy 1]

Yeah, because why would we need/want an improved medical system if missionmakers can just unfuck the current system.. Great job man, keep on defending the flaws of A3.

Ever consider some of the casuals who don't want to play super-mega-ultra sim all the time might actually WANT them? If you want realism, take the 5 seconds from your time to remove the FAKs, or take a couple of minutes to download a mod that adds a more realistic medical system

[-ghost-tf 12]

Ever consider some of the casuals who don't want to play super-mega-ultra sim all the time might actually WANT them? If you want realism, take the 5 seconds from your time to remove the FAKs, or take a couple of minutes to download a mod that adds a more realistic medical system

Ofcourse, because asking for an improved medical system equals "super-mega-ultra sim"...

And ofcourse its OK to tell someone else to spend 5 seconds (5 seconds my ass) to remove all the FAKs or having to use mods to fix it, but if someone tells YOU to download a mod yourself that makes the game more casual its not OK right?

The improved medical system that was added later into arma2 was added as an optional module in the editor (First aid module), why should it be any different for arma3?

[dmarkwick 261]

The question was "Is the game dumbed down?". And people answered by mentioning the FAKs, because the medical aspect of the game has indeed been dumbed down. Since every unit in arma3 has a FAK and vehicles got alot of them it would be pretty annoying for a mission maker to remove them for every mission he makes (even for units that get spawned in you need to removed the FAKs), so yeah I dont think alot of missionmakers would bother. But still if you keep following this logic, nothing in arma3 will ever get improved/fixed. Something broken? Fix it yourself, or let some missionmaker/modmaker fix it for you..

Aaand another one comes galloping to the fore to say what I already said people have said :D

Anyway, as you said the question is "Is the game dumbed down" and my answer to that is no I don't believe so. A little work by the mission designer (and all good missions require designer work) and you have whatever game you want to play. There seems to be a trend recently where a lot of players just want gameplay to come to them, which is fair enough for casual gameplay I suppose, but that's not really what ArmA is really about is it?

BTW, the FAKs are not "broken", they work as intended. You just don't like it. If there's something in the game that you don't like, then yes you'll have to remove it. I don't particularly like them, but then I don't use them. I use the medics instead. And of course the AI don't use them.

---------- Post added at 22:46 ---------- Previous post was at 22:43 ----------

The improved medical system that was added later into arma2 was added as an optional module in the editor (First aid module), why should it be any different for arma3?

Well exactly, why should it be any different for ArmA3?

[-ghost-tf 12]

Anyway, as you said the question is "Is the game dumbed down" and my answer to that is no I don't believe so.

My answer was directed to that you said, people keep raising the FAKs complaint again and again endlessly. A3 might not be dumbed down in your opinion, but the medical system surely is, compared to the arma2 first aid module.

There seems to be a trend recently where a lot of players just want gameplay to come to them, which is fair enough for casual gameplay I suppose, but that's not really what ArmA is really about is it?

There also seems to be a new trend where people have to fix all sort of game issues/bugs/bad design decisions (<--opinions..) themselfs by either using/making mods or mission design. Is that what Arma3 is all about now? Fixing the game yourself?

BTW, the FAKs are not "broken", they work as intended. You just don't like it. If there's something in the game that you don't like, then yes you'll have to remove it. I don't particularly like them, but then I don't use them. I use the medics instead. And of course the AI don't use them.

I know they are not broken, with broken I meant that your logic could easily be applied to anything, including broken things.

Well exactly, why should it be any different for ArmA3?

It shouldnt, but currently it is. I thought that is what this thread was all about "What more is it that have been simplified?" :D

[progamer 14]

Ever consider some of the casuals who don't want to play super-mega-ultra sim all the time might actually WANT them? If you want realism, take the 5 seconds from your time to remove the FAKs, or take a couple of minutes to download a mod that adds a more realistic medical system

Well, the votes on the feedback tracker show people want an advanced medical system and not a downgrade of Arma 3.

Realistic wounding system: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3002 has 707 votes for it. And 88 votes for an incapacitated state: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=2763.

The community has wanted more realism and a more advanced and a more realistic medical system for a very long time and hopefully BIS will make us our better medical system. If people didn't want these things they would have more downvotes.

This video here:

and this one:

is the kind of stuff Arma needs, with medevacs and proper player damage model with potential for limb loss. Edited September 12, 2013 by ProGamer

[Smurf 12]

@Medical system: FAK "changes" you damage to .25 no matter if you have .26 or .99 of damage. Also no bleeding.

Small changes on this system could have huge impact on gameplay without turning it into a "sim nightmare".

[progamer 14]

@Medical system: FAK "changes" you damage to .25 no matter if you have .26 or .99 of damage. Also no bleeding.

Small changes on this system could have huge impact on gameplay without turning it into a "sim nightmare".

We can leave the current system as it is and add an advanced medical module with the sim elements everyone wants as Arma 2 did with its medical system by making it a module.

[suprememodder 11]

definitely. that's just a business reality. however, the degree to which they can dumb it down and not begin to lose business is i think extremely close right now. there's dissent on the forums, on other boards, steam forums, etc. people aern't happy with the degree of simplification. add on the cop and paste fiasco and other factors, then it's bad for the game and bad for business.

[David77 10]

I'm looking back & laughing, to when myself & many others were upset about the franchise going to be a "steam only game". And how we kept telling people here on the forums it was a bad sign of things to come. Not necessarily that steam itself was bad, but that it was the first sign of the game going to be dumbed down for the mainstream. Generic content, BF/COD "movement", achievements etc etc. That said, it's not dumbed down that bad. It's still a very nice sandbox game, with 95% of the old still intact.

Edited September 12, 2013 by David77

[chortles 263]

Ehhh, I didn't see the Steamworks announcement as a "mainstreaming" as rather a clear sign that development had gone sour in 2012 (which at least one devblog hinted further at) and an unofficial admission that "at this point we're making the best we can with the limitations we have (such as having to launch within 2013)"... emphasis on having to.

[dm 9]

And no you couldn't config anything you wanted when using slots.

Err, yes you could. I know you could, because I did. Remember a little something called JAM?

Just to refresh your memory - in previous games when medics were healing you even without the First Aid Module added in ArmA2 (and removed in ArmA3) you couldn't fight, you couldn't even move while medic was spending a good amount of time healing you effectively taking two of you out of combat. There also never were any FAKs that completely replace medics.

You mean the whole 9 seconds it took to play the animation (I just checked the rtm and the configs), after which you are healed to FULL health?

Yes, very realistic.

As for the FAM, well its just a bunch of scripts, nothing stopping you adding them into your missions (without an addon)....

And in previous games you actually can.

No, in previous games it was completely impossible to flip the vehicles just by driving around.

There were three ways to flip a vehicle under the old physical simulation:

1. A bug where geometry intersection went crazy (see T-72's flipping off into space on Sahrani)

2. By driving off the end of a tall structure (damaged bridges, dock objects, etc) and even then 99% of the time you'd land on your wheels/tracks.

3. By scripting it.

I agree, the auto-righting is shit (and there is a technical reason behind why it is happening, which I CBA to discuss with you because you wont care), AFAIK they have plans to improve it.

[metalcraze 290]

FAKs can of course be removed by mission designers for the would-be FAKless. However its a great complaint point to raise again & again endlessly, and refuse to believe that mission designers would ever do that.

Yes because somebody will bother removing FAKs from every single mission. Considering that removing them will solve absolutely nothing - when you will be forced to use just as broken medic instead who just waves hands, beep beeps while you keep fighting and you are healed.

At least number of FAKs is limited and they take you out of combat for 3 seconds. Medic has infinite number of them and can be 50m away handwaving as long as he started casting a spell when you were up close. And you can still shoot people while he heals you which is just FPDR

so in your version you dont stop sprinting easy with a load on and i you take it of you can sprint longer ?

it just happend to me again , i thought it was Weight as eveything in config now has a mass value ?

You should not be able to move with 100 kgs at all and you talk about sprinting.

Did you really prefer the arma2 system in which the smallest falls would break your leg or kill you? Ok, maybe your right in that it could be tweaked a little better for height but using Fall mod beats all current and previous iterations. Why do people think Arma 2 mannequin movement is so realistic? Are you all THAT out of shape? Im almost 43 and I guarantee I can do double speed every animation that Arma 2 is capable of -get off your PC's and go work out for Christs sake.

Do you really prefer a system where you put on a load real humans have trouble moving with, then jump off of a roof and suffer no consequences whereas real humans would suffer trauma taking them out of combat or worse?

ArmA2 punishment was a lot more realistic than what we have now no matter the shortcomings. What we have now is dozen times worse.

Err, yes you could. I know you could, because I did. Remember a little something called JAM?

Mods do not count.

You mean the whole 9 seconds it took to play the animation (I just checked the rtm and the configs), after which you are healed to FULL health?

Yes, very realistic.

9 seconds where neither you nor medic can fight? That's still a lot more realistic than ArmA3 insta-heals. When even AI simply walks away keeping fighting when medic starts healing them and yet gets healed regardless - says a lot about what we have now.

As for the FAM, well its just a bunch of scripts, nothing stopping you adding them into your missions (without an addon)....

Right - if something is broken - fix it yourself. Not to mention that it probably does not even work right in A3.

No, in previous games it was completely impossible to flip the vehicles just by driving around.

There were three ways to flip a vehicle under the old physical simulation:

1. A bug where geometry intersection went crazy (see T-72's flipping off into space on Sahrani)

2. By driving off the end of a tall structure (damaged bridges, dock objects, etc) and even then 99% of the time you'd land on your wheels/tracks.

3. By scripting it.

I flipped vehicles countless times by holding E and doing sharp turns on a rough terrain over years. Not tanks of course.

I agree, the auto-righting is shit (and there is a technical reason behind why it is happening, which I CBA to discuss with you because you wont care), AFAIK they have plans to improve it.

If BIS wanted to improve this they would've done so in the past 6 months so it clearly means they don't want to. Technical reason? What can it possibly be? PhysX not allowing vehicles to be turned over? Oh wait no that's not the case.

Edited September 12, 2013 by metalcraze

[Cyper 18]

So I guess you're only interested in the negative. Another complaint thread. It seems like your mind is made up, time to move on perhaps? :)

What do you mean by that, exactly?

I pre-ordered the game back in June. I bought it today. Just because I complain doesn't mean I want to abandon the whole game. It's still my nr.1 favorite game after GTA.

Generic content, BF/COD "movement", achievements etc etc. That said, it's not dumbed down that bad. It's still a very nice sandbox game, with 95% of the old still intact.

The thing that I really love is the movement. It's more fluid. Makes CQC interesting for once. It's not to fluid and not to stiff. The only bad thing is the grenade throw.

[David77 10]

What do you mean by that, exactly?

I pre-ordered the game back in June. I bought it today. Just because I complain doesn't mean I want to abandon the whole game. It's still my nr.1 favorite game after GTA.

The thing that I really love is the movement. It's more fluid. Makes CQC interesting for once. It's not to fluid and not to stiff. The only bad thing is the grenade throw.

Yeah the grenade throw is atrocious. THAT IS just like COD or BF. I did rationalize the grenades like this; It's 2035 - The grenades are super light weight and can be thrown like baseballs.

[clydefrog 3]

The grenades are still much better like they are now than they were in Arma 2, as far as aiming them goes at least.

[David77 10]

The grenades are still much better like they are now than they were in Arma 2, as far as aiming them goes at least.

You may aswell not use a weapon with a grenade launcher. Since we can throw the grenades like 100mph in an insta second Lol.