AI Discussion (dev branch)

[froggyluv 2136]

As per sneaking up on AI -its still very possible to get as close as 5m (while crouched) and even closer crawling. Besides the lacking Audio camo aspect -detection is very well done in this regard. Perhaps an added camo bonus when snooping among the vegetation would be nice also.

 

One thing, Im trying to interrupt the enemy's response when he first detects me upon sneaking up -as it is he spins and his Knowsabout value seems to immediately go from a zero to 4. Ive place a few triggers to try an 'catch' his knowsabout between 0-1, 1-2, 2-3 but it never catches it in time. Maybe an eachframe EH would do it..

 

 Reason being Id like to add a surprise area where the AI gasps out and perhaps does a panicked animation before just spinning, raising and firing.

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

6 hours ago, froggyluv said:

One thing, Im trying to interrupt the enemy's response when he first detects me upon sneaking up -as it is he spins and his Knowsabout value seems to immediately go from a zero to 4. Ive place a few triggers to try an 'catch' his knowsabout between 0-1, 1-2, 2-3 but it never catches it in time. Maybe an eachframe EH would do it..

 

 Reason being Id like to add a surprise area where the AI gasps out and perhaps does a panicked animation before just spinning, raising and firing.

 

You'd probably need to reduce the AIs detection skills using spotDistance/time with setSkill.

It's a hit and miss really, since these values are not set in stone and change/get recalculated with server difficulty/player profile and/or influenced by AI mods.

 

AI knowsabout value is event driven and therefor jumping to fixed values after certain events.

Place an opfor unit named test anywhere on the map, yourself as blufor unit and run this:

output = [];
_push = output pushback (format ["Test distance: %1m",(test distance player)]);

_LineOfSight = [] spawn {

    while {true} do {

        waituntil {!(lineintersects [eyepos player,eyepos test,test,player])};

        output pushback format (["Player in line of sight! Time: %1s. Knowsabout: %2!",time,test knowsabout player]);

        waituntil {(lineintersects [eyepos player,eyepos test,test,player])};

        output pushback format (["Player out of sight! Time: %1s. Knowsabout: %2!",time,test knowsabout player]);

        copytoclipboard str output;

    };

};


_track = [] spawn {

    while {true} do {

        _knows = test knowsabout player;

        waituntil {sleep 0.02;test knowsabout player != _knows};

        output pushback (format ["Knowsabout changed! Time: %1s. Knowsabout: %2",time,test knowsabout player]);
        copytoclipboard str output;

    };

};

player addEventHandler ["Fired",{output pushback (format ["Player fired. Time: %1s. Knowsabout: %2!",time,test knowsabout player])}];
test addEventHandler ["Fired",{output pushback (format ["Enemy fired at %1! Time: %2s. Knowsabout %3!",assignedtarget test,time,test knowsabout player])}];

Depending on interaction/engagement with the test unit you can see how the knowsabout value jumps around.

 

//around the corner of a building
["Test distance: 20.479m"
"Player fired. Time: 3.587s. Knowsabout: 0.1!"
"Knowsabout changed! Time: 3.631s. Knowsabout: 1.35"
"Player in line of sight! Time: 7.389s. Knowsabout: 1.35!"
"Knowsabout changed! Time: 7.582s. Knowsabout: 4"
"Player out of sight! Time: 7.626s. Knowsabout: 4!"
"Player in line of sight! Time: 7.67s. Knowsabout: 4!"
"Player out of sight! Time: 7.715s. Knowsabout: 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 7.914s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Player fired. Time: 8.069s. Knowsabout: 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 8.113s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 8.322s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 8.522s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 8.719s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 8.918s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 9.116s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 9.314s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 9.539s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 9.716s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 9.914s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 10.107s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 10.303s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 10.516s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 10.713s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 10.907s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 11.112s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 11.3s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 11.5s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 11.708s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 11.874s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 12.109s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 12.294s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 12.477s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 12.708s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Enemy fired at <NULL-object>! Time: 12.892s. Knowsabout 4!"
"Player in line of sight! Time: 28.888s. Knowsabout: 4!"
"Player fired. Time: 29.704s. Knowsabout: 4!"
"Player out of sight! Time: 30.088s. Knowsabout: 4!"]

Firing always makes knowsabout jump to 1.35.

At this knowsabout value it seems that the value is high enough for the AI to engage the target even if the assigned target of the test unit returns object null.

 

Sneaking up to the test unit will always set the knowsabout value to 4, even if no prior engagement has taken place and the test unit is facing away and didn't spot me before.

Just one of the oddities of AI on a similar severity level as a single rifleman opening fire on 4 squads on his own.

 

Sneaking up really has improved since A3 release, stuff like this wasn't possible in A2 at all:

 

 

This one is really impressive:

 

And my favorite:

 

Cheers

[f2k sel 164]

There is the forgetabout command so you can reset the units knowledge but you have to keep polling the unit for the info.

Also disableAI "autotarget" makes them use visual detection, combined with other things such as triggers to detect stance and speed around the unit.

I think if we just had a detection EVH it would make things much easier as you could adjust the values like in the damaged EVH I think it is.

That could be based on speed stance distance ect of the detected unit.

Previously adjusting the knowledge wasn't  possible but  using the forgetabout command this is doable.

 

 

 

 

[froggyluv 2136]

Thanks GrumpyOlBasterd - gotta admit i chuckled out loud when i saw 'Grumpy Ol Man' hiding behind that bush with some weird idle animation going on - kinda encapsulates my gaming career as an older father. Anyways cool stuff im gonna play around with your code abit and see what i can do. The problem with reduce spotdistance is im trying to add to a mod dynamically when there is a surprise CQB encounter -such as two units rounding a corner on each other. Theres no way to preemptively know theyll bump into each other like that so messing with that subSkill wont really be an option. I could probably run some sorta lineIntersect check which is expensive as heck -but honestly almost all cool cqb stuff is crazy expensive so im used to 7-12 fps

 

f2k sel -cool stuff havent messed at all with forgetabouitt script command but not sure that would help again in such close quarters.

+1 on isDetected EH

[Vasily.B 529]

On 3.07.2017 at 11:03 PM, das attorney said:

Also, couple of things about knowsabout/nearTargets I noticed:

 

1) Sometimes things like Logics come up in their nearTargets, which seems strange as a logic isn't a corporeal entity.

 

2)  If a mortar shell explodes near them, then the mortar is added to their nearTargets list (always seems to be a perfect position regardless of distance)

About point 2 - also saw this problem, specially with mortars, artillery, they shuold recognize direction, maybe distance, but not so accurate, as mortars at more than kilometer are almost not audiable, so how they can know its position?

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

Issue with tanks and cover:

 

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T126270

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

On 7/5/2017 at 5:17 AM, Vasily.B said:

About point 2 - also saw this problem, specially with mortars, artillery, they shuold recognize direction, maybe distance, but not so accurate, as mortars at more than kilometer are almost not audiable, so how they can know its position?

 

is this the actual mortar shell, or the artillery target?

 

when I shoots on their own, an ArtilleryTarget object is created at the target spot as the artillery is fired.

[Vasily.B 529]

On 22.07.2017 at 1:48 PM, Night515 said:

Issue with tanks and cover:

 

https://feedback.bistudio.com/T126270

I was reporting this about 2 years ago:

 

On 23.07.2017 at 3:46 AM, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

is this the actual mortar shell, or the artillery target?

 

when I shoots on their own, an ArtilleryTarget object is created at the target spot as the artillery is fired.

I dont know what you mean, but if there is some artillery about 4 km from some guy, and artillery round hits the grund, this guy know position of artillery vehicle. Same with mortar.

[krycek 349]

Having multiple playable groups, the previous group disembarks their tank/apc/car/chopper. For example a group of crewmen gets into their armored vehicles and clear out the enemy armor then I order them to stop, I switch to my infantry group to enter the city. The crewmen group disembarks their tanks with the exception of the leader.

This was actually fixed in Arma 2 where the previous playable group stayed in their vehicles when switching to another group aka they didn't forget their orders. This is pretty annoying when I want some armored cover but the morons already left their apcs or tanks when I switched to another group. This doesn't happen only if the crewmen already starts the mission in their vehicles.

 

Also not ideal, but having the past cardboard trees was much better. I have to use Zeus in every mission because of cardboard tanks that flip up, but now they also get stuck in the bigger trees that don't fall down easily so I have to unblock them. We're basically to square one with AI driving, there's no "I" in the AI.

 

In their defense in two previous tests they managed to use the road,but kept bumping into each other. Once they hit one of the bigger trees it goes braindead (legends say you could still see it there).

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by krycek
Added vids

[snoops_213 75]

23 hours ago, Vasily.B said:

 

 

I dont know what you mean, but if there is some artillery about 4 km from some guy, and artillery round hits the grund, this guy know position of artillery vehicle. Same with mortar.

Yeah i've noticed this as well, to the point in one mission i had 3 men (ai) get past two attacking squads and go kill the mortar team over a 1km away, took me a while to figure out half during testing why the arty stopped working. 

 

On 23/07/2017 at 9:46 AM, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

is this the actual mortar shell, or the artillery target?

 

when I shoots on their own, an ArtilleryTarget object is created at the target spot as the artillery is fired.

Im sure its the rounds they react to because they dont seem to become aware until impact of the rounds. 

[Vasily.B 529]

Plus if you are commanding whole tank platoon, and choose everyone [~], and tell them to stop, nobody will care about it (willl not stop). Reported year ago, i dont even check if my reports are still there, as i dont get any email notification.

[kremator 1065]

/me waits for BIS devs to say 'give me a repro' before fixing broken AI.

 

EDIT:  I notice that we haven't had anything AI related since May 4th from @oukej /reallyreallysadface

[danil-ch 165]

Quote

 Meanwhile, our brave developers in other locations are improving and fixing a few long-term standing issues in Arma 3.

This problem still not resolved.

On 15.12.2016 at 2:43 PM, danil-ch said:

AI almost stopped using grenades against infantry. Turns out that AI soldiers only start using them when they run out of ammo for their main weapon. Repro mission is here: https://feedback.bistudio.com/T122157

 

 

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

On 7/27/2017 at 3:38 PM, kremator said:

/me waits for BIS devs to say 'give me a repro' before fixing broken AI.

 

EDIT:  I notice that we haven't had anything AI related since May 4th from @oukej /reallyreallysadface

 

4 yr old game ... its over :) enjoy what we have!!!

[ineptaphid 6413]

On 7/31/2017 at 2:52 AM, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

4 yr old game ... its over :) enjoy what we have!!!

It's over? Show me another 4 year old game that still gets daily updates on Dev branch and is constantly adding new features and releasing free DLC . While the ai certainly has issues, I would not use the term "it's over" to describe Arma 3.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

1 hour ago, ineptaphid said:

It's over? Show me another 4 year old game that still gets daily updates on Dev branch and is constantly adding new features and releasing free DLC . While the ai certainly has issues, I would not use the term "it's over" to describe Arma 3.

 

I would use "its over" to describe ArmA 3 AI development. If we get some fixes to the driving, that will be a bonus, but I doubt it at this point.

[road runner 4344]

6 minutes ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

I would use "its over" to describe ArmA 3 AI development. If we get some fixes to the driving, that will be a bonus, but I doubt it at this point.

I just don't think they have the coders required for a major update to the AI.

I'd much rather have an AI DLC where AI

Didn't walk off roof's

Climbed up and down ladders on request, and by themselves

Were able to scale walls by themselves

 

All very well making Jets DLC which Is pointless on the standard vanilla maps, as they're not large enough to get the benefits of something akin to DCS's in terms of simulation.

They (BIS) should have focused on the tanks that weight 60 tonnes being flipped like confetti after hitting a pebble, or vehicles that roll constantly on any hillside that has a gradient of more than 3 degree's.

The AI being smarter is what the consumer has wanted for long enough, not fancy tank interiors, or radars on aircraft, these are cosmetic when the AI is still as fucking dumb as a box of frogs!!

[froggyluv 2136]

Now see I was already to hit that like button - twice even till I read that last sentence ???

[Grumpy Old Man 3545]

8 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

 

I would use "its over" to describe ArmA 3 AI development. If we get some fixes to the driving, that will be a bonus, but I doubt it at this point.

 

I too am at a point where I think it's basically unrealistic to expect any major AI overhaul, be it combat or driving related.

Still hoping this will be done for the next arma iteration, scrap the current FSM model and start from scratch,

making a more self preserving AI that actually feels like it doesn't want to die by firing its rifle at a 62ton tank just because the gunner is turned out.

 

Cheers

[Alwarren 2767]

10 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

I would use "its over" to describe ArmA 3 AI development. If we get some fixes to the driving, that will be a bonus, but I doubt it at this point.

 

What I would rather like to know is whether there will be an Arma 4 and that it will actually contain AI and an editor and modding, and not try to be Argo/KotH/PlayerUnknowns Battleground.

 

But that is speculation on conjecture, we might be better off discussing actual issues.

[das attorney 858]

I think that's a given.  Arma's their bread and butter

[Alwarren 2767]

23 minutes ago, das attorney said:

I think that's a given.  Arma's their bread and butter

 

That is what I would have thought as well, but given how much was invested into Argo, and seeing how a game like PlayerUnknown's Battleground could sell 4 million copies in a few month, I am getting worried, especially since nobody ever said they are commited to make Arma 4 - quite the contrary, the last statement I read was "We're not even sure there will be an Arma 4 yet".

[das attorney 858]

I think though that the strength of Arma is that the editor is available and AI can be used to do things that you would otherwise couldn't do with players (who would want to do guard duty at a reserve base etc)??

 

If they went down the PUBG/Battlefield route of PVP only, they would be in direct competition and would probably lose out, whereas by keeping the niche they have in the market, they can guarantee X amount of sales.

 

If anything I would think they want to hold onto the Life players who make up a huge core of the online "community" imo, even though they keep quiet on the topic.  We will have to see what this new game EVERYWHERE does as if is a success, then it's goodbye life players...

 

Then they would be back to milsim community as #1 (and pretty much only customer).  

 

I could probably drone on about this for ages but I think that's the core of what my opinion is.

 

Anyway this is all offtopic, and I do share your concerns, but I think that they will continue with the AI and editor for Arma 4.

[The Man Without Qualities 110]

12 hours ago, ineptaphid said:

It's over? Show me another 4 year old game that still gets daily updates on Dev branch and is constantly adding new features and releasing free DLC . While the ai certainly has issues, I would not use the term "it's over" to describe Arma 3.

 

it is over

[en3x 209]

I recall their effort of AI pathfinding/ vehicle pathfinding efforts, and other smaller/medium tweaks (suppresion, grenades, vision) so I wouldn't rule them out.

They might be more in line with DLCs probably.