AI Discussion (dev branch)

[OMAC 254]

The AI has only gotten deadlier. No one is nerfing it.

Dev GhostOne said they were nerfed last July:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3480#c40270

Since then, though, AI accuracy has been increased, among many other changes.

[cthulhu616 3]

•AI in groups share information about targets

•Previously, an AI that is without LOS to a target (e.g. blocked by a bush) - but that is in a group with another AI member who does - would fire at the target if feasible (i.e. valid range & penetration through blocking object)

•Now AI - without direct LOS - will only try to fire for a limited amount of time, and will stop firing if they do not themselves get LOS to the target, even if a group member still has valid LOS

don't think that's the 100% right behaviour. When enemies are not in LOS of a unit, but from others in his group, they should give (imprecise) supressing fire out of their cover (if possible) -> remember: you don't win firefights by killing the enemy but by holding the enemy down!

[enex 11]

•AI in groups share information about targets

•Previously, an AI that is without LOS to a target (e.g. blocked by a bush) - but that is in a group with another AI member who does - would fire at the target if feasible (i.e. valid range & penetration through blocking object)

•Now AI - without direct LOS - will only try to fire for a limited amount of time, and will stop firing if they do not themselves get LOS to the target, even if a group member still has valid LOS

don't think that's the right behaviour. When enemies are not in LOS of a unit, but from others in his group, they should give (imprecise) supressing fire out of their cover (if possible) -> remember: you don't win firefights by killing the enemy but by holding the enemy down!

I think is right step...for AIs not killing player without Line of Sight.Suppression is different matter:

The way I see it is that AI fireteam leader should pend info about LOS from his 4 subordinate and if

enemy was spotted (from subordinates), he would direct suppressing fire on that location.Note that whole

procedure would take time...at least 10s if not longer.

If AI squad leader would be deployed he would be pending AI fireteam leaders info about LOS

(where Fireteam leader would execute example above)

What do you think?

[el_muerko 0]

Hi JasonB,

I did intensive tests (with my limited resources) on this issue. Which, after the testing, isn't an issue - it's really a neat feature. Please read the whole thread - and check out the videos from Gama dust. :)

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?166487-ARMA3-Coop-Tactics-how-to-fight-the-AI&p=2530218#post2530218

Also, we should use a classification system for the type of cover - I tried one:

---------- Post added at 08:39 ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 ----------

@petka

I have an idea for you, which would save you a lot of time and a lot of nerves in customer support - and would help your customer to understand the AI better.

You should provide something like this little neat script from gama dust to the pulic. I personally would love to have something like this for my AI tests. Everytime a customer thinks the AI is cheating, he could clarify the issue before he spams the feedback tracker.

100 times this!!!

You are engaged by an enemy and move to flank, you step out from behind a building to engage them from outside their FOV in a firefight and then they snap aim to you and shoot you in the head. Possibly the most annoying AI problem in the game.

[turin turambar 0]

Thinking more about how the AI works in relation with the last videos people have uploaded, it's a problem how they "remember" the position of the targets. They can see a target, then go prone behind a bush and shoot perfectly. I'm not talking about shooting at a distant bush which hides a known target (humans also can do that), but shooting accurately to the target even if the AI change positions, breaks LOS and they have a bush 30 cms away from their eyes. They just know the x,y,z coordinates of the target and fire. An human can't do that. Even a player, he can't say "the distant enemy is in this pixel" and then go prone and fire, because in the moment he went prone, the pixel changed position and he lost LoS.

Obviously trying to simulate real human aim and knowledge for the AI would be too complex, we still need abstractions. I wonder if AI changing stances and position should decrease a bit the knowAbout value of the AI targets, and if the LoS is still maintained, the values will increase again in the next update cycle.

[dmarkwick 261]

Thinking more about how the AI works in relation with the last videos people have uploaded, it's a problem how they "remember" the position of the targets. They can see a target, then go prone behind a bush and shoot perfectly. I'm not talking about shooting at a distant bush which hides a known target (humans also can do that), but shooting accurately to the target even if the AI change positions, breaks LOS and they have a bush 30 cms away from their eyes. They just know the x,y,z coordinates of the target and fire. An human can't do that. Even a player, he can't say "the distant enemy is in this pixel" and then go prone and fire, because in the moment he went prone, the pixel changed position and he lost LoS.

Obviously trying to simulate real human aim and knowledge for the AI would be too complex, we still need abstractions. I wonder if AI changing stances and position should decrease a bit the knowAbout value of the AI targets, and if the LoS is still maintained, the values will increase again in the next update cycle.

Yes I can see how that would appear to be a problem. But really, it's more of a slightly skewed feature: an AI unit "knows" where you are by your last confirmed position (+ movement if you were moving), and will lay down rounds in that area, even if you hide behind a bush and cannot be seen. If you were to move away from that position without being seen, the AI will still "think" you're in the last position he saw you at (+ movement... you get the idea :)).

So we have a logic that says an AI unit should continue to fire even if he cannot actually see you... as long as he thinks he knows where you are. So.... whether that bush is 1m in front of you... or 1m in front of the AI, is disregarded it seems.

[dr. hladik 231]

•AI in groups share information about targets

•Previously, an AI that is without LOS to a target (e.g. blocked by a bush) - but that is in a group with another AI member who does - would fire at the target if feasible (i.e. valid range & penetration through blocking object)

•Now AI - without direct LOS - will only try to fire for a limited amount of time, and will stop firing if they do not themselves get LOS to the target, even if a group member still has valid LOS

don't think that's the 100% right behaviour. When enemies are not in LOS of a unit, but from others in his group, they should give (imprecise) supressing fire out of their cover (if possible) -> remember: you don't win firefights by killing the enemy but by holding the enemy down!

First step is that AI will not be able to kill you, just because teamMate told him where you are.

Randomized shooting through bushes is next step.

[dunedain 48]

That's good news. Played an Domination type game yesterday on DevBranch and the IA wrecked us through dense vegetation and even smokes as part of a squad of five attemping to take Feres from the West. We couldn't even return effective fire as the AIs were invisible to us...

[-Coulum- 35]

First step is that AI will not be able to kill you, just because teamMate told him where you are.

Randomized shooting through bushes is next step.

Yay!

Also hopefully eventually:

• 
  If the obstruction is close to the ai (closer than 1/2 the distance from ai to target) they should simply not fire.
  

Played an Domination type game yesterday on DevBranch and the IA wrecked us through dense vegetation and even smokes as part of a squad of five attemping to take Feres from the West. We couldn't even return effective fire as the AIs were invisible to us...

It is unfortunate that "effective fire" against the ai is really only a kill shot.

[bad benson 1733]

First step is that AI will not be able to kill you, just because teamMate told him where you are.

Randomized shooting through bushes is next step.

sounds like a plan. keep making them more convincing. these are core details of coop and sp gameplay that shape the whole experience. the recent changes already did wonders to make this game feel more convincing against AI. i can only remember the arma 2 days (and before) with horror after playing CQB against AI now in arma 3. eventhough all other improvements are awesome, this is where it's at. please keep it up!

and please add SOME kind of house usage at least when searching for the player, who is 100% capable of using houses. it's so silly to have AI circle aroudn a house trying to find a weird angle to shoot you instead of frag and breach.

[Smurf 12]

Randomized shooting through bushes is next step.

Just bushes or these are the first steps for a working "supressive fire" command? :D

[Bouben 3]

First step is that AI will not be able to kill you, just because teamMate told him where you are.

Randomized shooting through bushes is next step.

Guys, this is an amazing change. Firefights seem to be significantly longer and realistic. The environment really steps in to the gameplay right now. Keep it up!

[-Coulum- 35]

Guys, this is an amazing change. Firefights seem to be significantly longer and realistic. The environment really steps in to the gameplay right now. Keep it up!

Yeah, though I thought the issue was actually addressed along time ago, I found today that hiding behind a bush actually helps quite alot now, even if the ai sees you go behind it (and you manage to survive the burst of fire he puts through it - a prone and roll once out of sight usual throughs them off.)

Will be even better if they don't fire at the exact point where they expect you to be but rather at the general area they expect you to be (higher dispersion).

Now if only the ai themselves knew how much protection these bushes gave... and actually used one to hide behind...

Great job klamacz, Hladik et al.!

[cthulhu616 3]

Yeah, though I thought the issue was actually addressed along time ago, I found today that hiding behind a bush actually helps quite alot now, even if the ai sees you go behind it (and you manage to survive the burst of fire he puts through it - a prone and roll once out of sight usual throughs them off.)

this is another point which isn't that perfect and should be changed. if i would se hide somebody behind a bush, i would lay down a hell of fire on him!

Nevertheless it's a great step forward!

Edited October 17, 2013 by Cthulhu616

[lordprimate 159]

Yeah, though I thought the issue was actually addressed along time ago, I found today that hiding behind a bush actually helps quite alot now, even if the ai sees you go behind it (and you manage to survive the burst of fire he puts through it - a prone and roll once out of sight usual throughs them off.)

Will be even better if they don't fire at the exact point where they expect you to be but rather at the general area they expect you to be (higher dispersion).

Now if only the ai themselves knew how much protection these bushes gave... and actually used one to hide behind...

Great job klamacz, Hladik et al.!

by all means download and test the latest version of @TPWCAS you may find what you were commenting about happens... quite often..

[mr_centipede 31]

by all means download and test the latest version of @TPWCAS you may find what you were commenting about happens... quite often..

I'm not sure if you knew, but do you realized that -Coulum- was the original author of the tpwcas? the C there stands for -coulum- then tpw take over, hence tpwC AI Suppression (TPWCAS) then tpwcas now is maintained by ollem... but it would be great if it's done on engine side rather than scripted

[-Coulum- 35]

Thanks Mr_Centipede but you give me far more credit than is deserved. I may have instigated the whole thing with my pathetic little script but I would say that there really isn't anything left of that original script in the mod TPWCAS is today. It was all tpw, Fabrizio_T and Ollem who made my proof of concept into something functional and efficient enough to use.

Nevertheless I do understand how TPWCAS works for the most part and it is very much a scripted workaround, and depending on the computer and how much is going on, it is prone to be very unreliable and in my experience. Having dozenss of scripts go off simultaneously will eventually create problems and scaling them down - well that creates inconsistency. Its amazing what those guys have done, and its only getting better... but as Mr_Centipede says it would be nice to have it in engine, as scripting is severely limiting.

Seeing the way the devs are tackling ai issues I am actually hopeful. Maybe in the very far future. I think one small step at a time is key thing to bear in mind though.

[blackjacktom 10]

Is the AI for drivers/gunner in a player vehicle likely to be updated soon? Currently as a vehicle commander commanding them to do anything (reverse, switch weapons, fire at targets) is fairly broken.

[instagoat 133]

Recent updates are giving me great results! AI fire at suspected and recent positions, but they're not dead precise anymore. It`s getting towards actual suppression now. I`m doing a little CQB now, and it is really tense with the bullets snapping past you, even after you`ve rounded the corner they will continue to fire: now they only need to continue randomly firing at suspected or former enemy positions, by a certain rule, and themselves avoid places where they have been shot at. Good work, BI, thanks!

[oldy41 61]

Recent updates are giving me great results! AI fire at suspected and recent positions, but they're not dead precise anymore. It`s getting towards actual suppression now. I`m doing a little CQB now, and it is really tense with the bullets snapping past you, even after you`ve rounded the corner they will continue to fire: now they only need to continue randomly firing at suspected or former enemy positions, by a certain rule, and themselves avoid places where they have been shot at. Good work, BI, thanks!

This is also my impression. (Though I am also using tpw_ebs and ww_aicover, which contribute their fair share to the experience.)

[xendance 3]

This is also my impression. (Though I am also using tpw_ebs and ww_aicover, which contribute their fair share to the experience.)

Well, you really shouldn't use any 3rd party mods if you want to give proper feedback ;)

[.kju 3245]

unfortunately there are only very few good simple repro missions done and people doing the effort to create such and analyze changes with such - this was the biggest benefit both for BI and the community in the CIT

[oldy41 61]

Well, you really shouldn't use any 3rd party mods if you want to give proper feedback ;)

Sure. But then I thought a positive comment and cheering up the devs a bit would do no harm ;)

[LoneCrow66 10]

Had a chance to play the dev version online this weekend and I found the AI to be much better. I saw them responding to gunfire in the area. I also noticed that they never stopped moving and just "standing around" to be sniped by me. Where I used to snipe 50 people each time I went out, I found it harder and wasted many more rounds trying to keep up with their movements.

I also would shoot and if anything landed within 50ft the whole squad would react. I also noticed a lot more missed shots and then the occasional perfect shot would kill me while turning a corner etc. It is definitely better than the current regular version.

[best2nd 10]

Hmm... It appears that there are many more undocumented changes to the AI...