AI Discussion (dev branch)

[BigBoss 10]

It doesn't help that, lots of players do not realize, real engagements, the ones ArmA3 attempts to simulate, are not about fraghunting. That's why you see players casually crouching out in the open, trying to land accurate shots, because they want to kill as many bad guys as possible.

[Masharra 10]

It doesn't help that, lots of players do not realize, real engagements, the ones ArmA3 attempts to simulate, are not about fraghunting. That's why you see players casually crouching out in the open, trying to land accurate shots, because they want to kill as many bad guys as possible.

I do not think Arma 3 really attempts to simulate "real engagements". Its more along the lines of dropping people in a military theme and hoping they do something that they think is realistic. Else things like suppression, armour, wind, etc would be default ingame. Alas that is OT though. That gameplay is more akin based on the mission though.

[Anachoretes 10]

When you're lying in a trench, and machine gunner working on your position, and enemy surrounds your place - this is suppression. In bf3, where 80% players is casuals and kids, who don't care about their lives, "mechanical supression" it's a necessity.

[metalcraze 290]

When you're lying in a trench, and machine gunner working on your position, and enemy surrounds your place - this is suppression.

Well damn and all this time silly armies thought suppression is putting enough gunfire on an enemy that it can't fire back.

[Anachoretes 10]

metalcraze

Maybe, he mean neuroleptic gas. All soldiers sad and supressed. "...No, captain, i'm going watching Opra and i don't care your army buisness..."

[bullet purveyor 85]

The player can sometimes be invisible to the AI.

At first he will spot and engage like normal, but as the player move closer AI will just lay still doing nothing, until you get very close.

AI do a weird 360 moonwalk every time they adjust formation sideways.

[froggyluv 2136]

Regarding blind AI -I noticed you had no waypoint orders for the AI. Even though he saw you and fired -a waypointless AI is like a headless AI.

[bullet purveyor 85]

The same thing happens with a move waypoint.

[VanZant 48]

Here the AI is broken. The members of my team cannot stay still unless i give them an explicit order to stop. For instance, if i start walking and then after some meters i stop, they keep walking by their own, and even walking in circles. They also make very strange and useless turnings, as if the rotation center were displaced.

[petek 62]

RiE and other Devs - do we have any ETA for fixing the "If it's Combat I'm a crawling" AI issue? (I know it's bound to be insanely complex)

Can anyone confirm if the "non-Dev" branch is like this? Don't want to switch back but really not enjoying the gameplay at the mo....

cheers

[royaltyinexile 175]

RiE and other Devs - do we have any ETA for fixing the "If it's Combat I'm a crawling" AI issue?

I can't be entirely sure which build, but some work in the pipeline (i.e. not in current dev branch).

Dr. Hladik intends to ...

decrease the AI's use of crouching/prone while moving in combat. They'll be more likely to crouch when they're static in combat (not deterministic, just a more likely behaviour), and shouldn't go prone if enemy target is known and very close*.

One 'limitation' is that if a bullet hits the ground near/ is fired nearby AI, and they don't know where the shooter is/if it's a threat, they're still likely to choose to go prone (find source, evaluate threat).

Perhaps the ideal state would be that when shots are fired they quickly move to cover (more organic response, harder to wipe out groups), but 1) this is actually a completely different issue to the above, and 2) there are some technical challenges (some of which are related to data; for example, in an open field with rocks around them, AI may not be able to compute rocks as cover properly, due to size/rotation of models).

Perhaps it will make it into the exe tomorrow, but we'll have to test it first, so no promises. :)

Best,

RiE

* i.e. If you put yourself in the editor facing the enemy**, depending on your range, they should choose to shoot you before changing stance (unless you are further away, in which case they may choose to take a knee).

** If you start behind them and jsut start shooting, they're likely to go prone first until they know whether the shots fired are a threat/where the threat is.

Edited August 1, 2013 by RoyaltyinExile

[petek 62]

I can't be entirely sure which build, but some work in the pipeline (i.e. not in current dev branch).

Dr. Hladik intends to decrease the AI's use of crouching/prone while moving in combat. They're more likely to crouch when they're static in combat (not deterministic, just a more likely behaviour), and won't go prone if enemy target is very close*.

One 'limitation' is that if a bullet hits the ground near/ is fired nearby AI, and they don't know where the shooter is/if it's a threat, they're still likely to choose to go prone (find source, evaluate threat).

Perhaps the ideal state would be that when shots are fired they quickly move to cover (more organic response, harder to wipe out groups), but 1) this is actually a completely different issue to the above, and 2) there are some technical challenges (some of which are related to data; for example, in an open field with rocks around them, AI may not be able to compute rocks as cover properly, due to size/rotation of models).

Perhaps it will make it into the exe tomorrow, but we'll have to test it first, so no promises. :)

Best,

RiE

* i.e. If you put yourself in the editor facing the enemy**, depending on your range, they should choose to shoot you before changing stance (unless you are further away, in which case they may choose to take a knee).

** If you start behind them and jsut start shooting, they're likely to go prone first until they know whether the shots fired are a threat/where the threat is.

Thanks for the update mate - much appreciated. I always test dev build releases using "infantry showcase" (and the very simple "team and one combat waypoint" one of the guys posted as a repro) and the crawling is driving me nuts!!;-)

cheers

[sqb-sma 66]

Dr. Hladik intends to decrease the AI's use of crouching/prone while moving in combat. They're more likely to crouch when they're static in combat (not deterministic, just a more likely behaviour), and won't go prone if enemy target is very close*.

It's good to see the prone too much problem being fixed, but I think crouch is a good stance for the AI. If they're taking fire... they wouldn't stand up unless they're sprinting across open ground (a less common situation), apart from that they should be crouched or low standing at least.

[metalcraze 290]

That will be a good fix, but they still need to use prone as much as possible when in combat and not close to an enemy.

Unlike people who play with respawn AI has one life. And when playing no-respawn missions prone movement makes a difference for humans too.

[killerwhale 1]

** If you start behind them and jsut start shooting, they're likely to go prone first until they know whether the shots fired are a threat/where the threat is.

this is a major problem, when someone is fired upon, sure they go prone or kneel but they should face where the shots are coming from, and they do but they slowly turn like a wheel. this needs to be fixed.

it hasn't been addressed yet but needs to be. The AI should immediately turn to where the shots have come from before even assessing whether the shots are a threat or not, then engage if it is an enemy once he has visual contact, can this be done? it seems very hard thing to do because it is not being fixed

Edited August 1, 2013 by killerwhale

[dmarkwick 261]

this is a major problem, when someone is fired upon, sure they go prone or kneel but they should face where the shots are coming from, and they do but they slowly turn like a wheel. this needs to be fixed.

it hasn't been addressed yet but needs to be. The AI should immediately turn to where the shots have come from before even assessing whether the shots are a threat or not, then engage if it is an enemy once he has visual contact, can this be done? it seems very hard thing to do because it is not being fixed

It's actually not always obvious where shots are coming from, especially ingame :)

[metalcraze 290]

Obvious to the player, should be obvious to AI.

Obviously not obvious from the first shot or two but AI will disregard the correct direction until the magical revealing shot is made that zeroes AI onto player's position with pixel precision. Whereas a player that looks for a shooter will find the approximate direction fast.

[katipo66 94]

Obvious to the player, should be obvious to AI.

How do you define what's obvious to a player?

[killerwhale 1]

How do you define what's obvious to a player?

Player knows where shots are coming from, there is no need to define anything. From What i understood RiE's post, AI asseses if the shot is a threat first, that should not be, have the AI look direction of shots first which should be abvious. If its close by danger and can see, then engage.

[f2k sel 164]

The question is why it takes 4-5 seconds to register there's been a shot fired less than 100 meters away, that's how long it takes before any movement of AI can be seen.

It also can't be down to the number of AI as there's only one plus player.

The same problem was seen in A2/OA, one thing that is different is the move and turn in A2/OA seems more fluid they seem to go prone while turning rather than the separate actions they seem to use in A3.

The average time it takes for AI to return fire after a shot has been fired is around 8-9 seconds.

Units are on the runway less than 100 meters away.

If you use a reveal the AI responds instantly obviously that's not ideal as it reveals too much but it looks so much more realistic.

Initial response is awful you can kill three or four AI units before they flinch.

Edited August 1, 2013 by F2k Sel

[old_painless 183]

I can certainly hear bullet impacts around me, but the direction is not easy to make out. Not so sure how obvious it is to the player

[GottyPlays 10]

Player knows where shots are coming from, there is no need to define anything. From What i understood RiE's post, AI asseses if the shot is a threat first, that should not be, have the AI look direction of shots first which should be abvious. If its close by danger and can see, then engage.

Wait WHAT?

usually i play with 75-80 fov, on 360 degrees, that's a minimal part of the view around me.

unless there is clearly something that I SEE shooting at me in my little cone of view, i'ts impossible to define where the hell shots are coming from, the audio is not that accurate, the only thing that i hear is the crack near me, and in 100% of cases that this happens im down on the ground scanning everywhere.

then comes the awful part, it's when i have to find that bastard that is shooting at me..and when the only things that you see are bushes and trees the situation becomes reeeally bad.

the ai in that regard is kinda fine as it is, we want more responsive allies, better balance on their aim, better driving, fixing loads of bugs like medics that take their time to heal squad members...i remember how it was before, ai that can see and 1 shot you from 600 meters, and sorry, i don't want that again.

Edited August 1, 2013 by GottyPlays

[metalcraze 290]

I can certainly hear bullet impacts around me, but the direction is not easy to make out. Not so sure how obvious it is to the player

Are you telling me you won't be able to realize that shots are coming from the west even after a dozen of them are made?

Because AI can't. Seems like the only reason it will ever look west is by pure chance.

Unless you have really bad speakers/headphones or perhaps not so good ears - you should be able to know the general direction after 2-3 shot.

the audio is not that accurate

You are very wrong. The audio is too accurate in ArmA3 where for some reason BIS has removed sound occlusion making it possible to hear shots even if there's a forest in between you and a shooter. You just need to practice a bit perhaps

Edited August 1, 2013 by metalcraze

[old_painless 183]

general direction yes. I have headphones, but under fire I go prone which removes a lot of vision. more practice would help for sure, but I don't necessarily get a good estimate right away

[twisted 128]

These proposed AI changes are going to be nice. Two things I'd like to see though would be AI aggressively seeking cover when under fire and a suppression effect that affects AI and players. The exact mechanism can be discussed to death but these two things be out help lift AI which I already enjoy to a new level.

When under fire and there's cover, players haul ass to get there and then figure things out when they have a breathing moment. AI is more passive and not wanting to make mistakes.

Suppression probably won't be feasible but just more active attempts to get to cover (including inside buildings) would help.

Edited August 1, 2013 by twisted