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Its sad really, that players can’t just play the game and immerse themselves in its world, instead micro analyse everything, not believing in its realism.

In a nutshell, not playing the game at all.

It’s a game, when modded its the nearest thing we have to a solid realistic war game on pc or anywhere, without being as dull as a simulator. I’ve been war gaming for the best part of four decades, and it don’t get much better than this game, trust me.

It’s a form of entertainment, that I really enjoy and want others to really enjoy. It comes across from the YT feedback I get, via the emails, these players want to play in an immersive way, as they see it on screen, they want to believe it. To be honest they’re my type of people/players, I want the same and get that, its real when I play, fully immersive.

For the ones that don’t want that, but instead want to analyse mod makers hard work, then I’m glad we don’t play the game together..

I couldn’t be doing with the tech chit/chat, i.e. the AI did this or that because the script said to do this..No... the unit is in a war zone, he did what he did for a tactical reason, if wrong or right, but that’s what he did, that’s how I see it..

I play the game..

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are you okay? this thread was made by a dev specifically asking for user input. now get out

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yeah stop bitchin about other people's bitchin and get bitchin so the devs can get fixin

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yeah stop bitchin about other people's bitchin and get bitchin so the devs can get fixin

Not exactly the best way to give them feedback.

---------- Post added at 02:13 ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 ----------

Its sad really, that players can’t just play the game and immerse themselves in its world, instead micro analyse everything, not believing in its realism.

In a nutshell, not playing the game at all.

It’s a game, when modded its the nearest thing we have to a solid realistic war game on pc or anywhere, without being as dull as a simulator. I’ve been war gaming for the best part of four decades, and it don’t get much better than this game, trust me.

It’s a form of entertainment, that I really enjoy and want others to really enjoy. It comes across from the YT feedback I get, via the emails, these players want to play in an immersive way, as they see it on screen, they want to believe it. To be honest they’re my type of people/players, I want the same and get that, its real when I play, fully immersive.

For the ones that don’t want that, but instead want to analyse mod makers hard work, then I’m glad we don’t play the game together..

I couldn’t be doing with the tech chit/chat, i.e. the AI did this or that because the script said to do this..No... the unit is in a war zone, he did what he did for a tactical reason, if wrong or right, but that’s what he did, that’s how I see it..

I play the game..

Your ramblings are really getting old.

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Not exactly the best way to give them feedback.

---------- Post added at 02:13 ---------- Previous post was at 02:12 ----------

Your ramblings are really getting old.

True, I was just making a bad jest.

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Does anyone really care about underwater combat?

i like this phrase... well at the moment it doesnt seem like theres any point to be honest...

A. you cannot attach explosives to boat hulls

B. your weapon cannot shoot further than whatever meters

C. AI combat underwater is a fail.

D. cannot exactly sneak onto land and kill people due to the shitty weapon you have

E. AI see you underwater anyway so theres no hiding.

F,G,H,I,J,K...X Y Z

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i like this phrase... well at the moment it doesnt seem like theres any point to be honest...

A. you cannot attach explosives to boat hulls

B. your weapon cannot shoot further than whatever meters

C. AI combat underwater is a fail.

D. cannot exactly sneak onto land and kill people due to the shitty weapon you have

E. AI see you underwater anyway so theres no hiding.

F,G,H,I,J,K...X Y Z

The underwater feature was pretty much a flop. Issues aside, it required resources that would have been better spent elsewhere.

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I actually quite like the work on underwater and I'm glad that the devs did it, I just wish that it had been expanded (read: more underwater small arms and maybe some "large" submarine simulation). :rolleyes:

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no point to compare AI in 3 different games on 3 different terrains and object placement and other conditions to claim something, unless you repeat same conditions test on same terrain in all 3 games

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no point to compare AI in 3 different games on 3 different terrains and object placement and other conditions to claim something, unless you repeat same conditions test on same terrain in all 3 games

Yep, this thread has already gone off topic a few times but I think that's to be expected.

So far in A3 I've found the AI are incredibly good at CQB however they turn so slowly that they aren't a threat to the player, but the manoeuvering and general stances are great.

I did notice that a few patches ago they spent too much time standing, now they spend too much time crawling. (Most players crouch 90% of the time during combat, I'd like to see that done by AI)

In open ground they're still sitting ducks, when they should split into people who suppress (not necessarily accurately) whilst the rest of the team SPRINTS to cover.

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...and maybe some "large" submarine simulation). :rolleyes:

Submarines for Arma? Well, for that to be of any value we need vast oceans, warships, and ASW that I can't see fit into Arma without it changing to a whole new and different game.

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Yep, this thread has already gone off topic a few times but I think that's to be expected.

So far in A3 I've found the AI are incredibly good at CQB however they turn so slowly that they aren't a threat to the player, but the manoeuvering and general stances are great.

I did notice that a few patches ago they spent too much time standing, now they spend too much time crawling. (Most players crouch 90% of the time during combat, I'd like to see that done by AI)

In open ground they're still sitting ducks, when they should split into people who suppress (not necessarily accurately) whilst the rest of the team SPRINTS to cover.

Errr... I like that they prefer prone stance for movement during actual combat - of course it should happen when they are under fire. They should kneel to fire when they can't fight prone like when they can't see anything. But overall current switch of stance priorities (using crouch and prone stance a lot more instead of standing stance which killed a lot of AIs over years) is a clear improvement.

As for players - well that's not a correct behavior really. Crouching makes you a lot bigger target, more recoil than prone.

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I actually quite like the work on underwater and I'm glad that the devs did it, I just wish that it had been expanded (read: more underwater small arms and maybe some "large" submarine simulation). :rolleyes:

Strange, I actually agree with you here, hehe.

The underwater scenario did not yet reach the full potential of what can be done with it, I think. The AI definitely has to learn still, and the fact that AI can see you underwater somewhat makes the whole underwater combat pointless. If that can be worked out, it will be quite ok.

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Errr... I like that they prefer prone stance for movement during actual combat - of course it should happen when they are under fire. They should kneel to fire when they can't fight prone like when they can't see anything. But overall current switch of stance priorities (using crouch and prone stance a lot more instead of standing stance which killed a lot of AIs over years) is a clear improvement.

As for players - well that's not a correct behavior really. Crouching makes you a lot bigger target, more recoil than prone.

However they do it in urban combat, when they used to cover and flank quite quickly they now do that while prone, which is more boring than watching paint dry. (One shot contact, five minutes of both sides crawling. They need to not prone so much when cover is plentiful and moving would be more effective)

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danger - proning toooo much

stealth - crouching too much

Note - i am not saying they shouldnt entirely quit using crouch or prone before someone cries

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Strange, I actually agree with you here, hehe.

The underwater scenario did not yet reach the full potential of what can be done with it, I think. The AI definitely has to learn still, and the fact that AI can see you underwater somewhat makes the whole underwater combat pointless. If that can be worked out, it will be quite ok.

Ehhh, one of my players admitted that he plays Wasteland partially because he can't stand the current branch patch AI and the changes that we're discussing of course haven't made their way to stable branch yet... hence a preference for PVP over co-op against stable branch AI. ;)

The underwater aspect definitely hasn't reached its full potential, but there was clearly a lot of effort, dedication and frankly "caring" involved... which to me is a good sign.

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After update_________________

Danger - still prone all the time 90-95% (no enemies present)

Stealth - Crouched 90% (no enemies present) also seem to be slower moving

danger - proning toooo much

stealth - crouching too much

Note - i am not saying they shouldnt entirely quit using crouch or prone before someone cries

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So no change from prior build?

nothing AI wise that i can see. (did not test driving AI)

i guess we will have to wait on the change log and then see whats been tweaked and test those.

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Its sad really, that players can’t just play the game and immerse themselves in its world, instead micro analyse everything, not believing in its realism.

Why do you think Snkman made GL4 ? Because he didn't believe in the realism. Everyone who takes mods apart to see how they work is looking for the same immersion as you - I play single player exclusively. But ultimately it is a charade, the mods do not make the AI any smarter. I would rather play against an AI who is programmed to make use of his surroundings rather than modded to wander round buildings randomly where he may or may not end up somewhere useful.

So how about giving the buildingpos in a building a weighting that reflects whether they offer a view, whether they provide hard cover etc. That might be a small step towards improving the AI decision making.

The micro AI has barely changed in 12 years. For the series to move on it needs:

AI that can suppress and be suppressed

AI that can use a building

AI that can take cover

AI that can drive a vehicle

AI that can act as a squad - fire and manoeuvre

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When set to danger they should crawl. Set them to aware and it´ll be no problem. The crawling is excellent, the casualty rates are down a little bit just because of that small change.

Also, I think what´s more important for the AI is (to go against or with the points above)

AI that can rearm from each others backpacks.

AI that can use terrain (hull down cover for tanks, popping up and down behind walls and rocks for infantry)

AI that can use Buildings

AI that knows how to employ vehicles/aircraft. Right now the tanks and helicopters just blunder about, often not going for the strengths of their craft.

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I have seen AI re-arm themselves from fallen comrades, in A2 I might add.

Edit: Didn't read Instagoat's post correctly. All points agreed upon!

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Also, I think what´s more important for the AI is (to go against or with the points above)

AI that can rearm from each others backpacks.

AI that can use terrain (hull down cover for tanks, popping up and down behind walls and rocks for infantry)

AI that can use Buildings

Yes this, but as stated it's really the low level AI that has to be addressed to make any of these work or else the AI is going to look more like the 3 Stooges than ever. Meaning if AI is expected to run around on it's own to rearm, fortify or attack a house or use a moveable object (tank) as cover -they've first have to move in a quck, deliberate and decisive manner -no small task considering the effort it's taking just to get them to use a proper stance or not switch to pistol. Not that the current refinements taking place aren't appreciated in fact the contrary -they're VERY much appreciated! But it really just reflects on what is possible without requiring an engine overhaul. The AI infantry pathfinding enhancements themselves are nothing short of momentous if compared to OFP/Arma1.

As far as AI using buildings in a coherent way, I've pretty much chalked that one up to fantasy at this point. There's really no game I can think of that pulls it off well -that is, squads of AI that both know how to enter/fortify/clear a building in a coherent way. RO2 does a few nice things in that sense but then utterly fail in others often resembling soldiers hoping to suicide by soldier. Swat 4 was probably the best at indoor AI, but then again the whole game was built around that and that alone in mind. They don't have to worry about going outside from building to building or squad formation or anything really except using prebuilt cover such as counters, desks and doors.

The type of AI we crave simply doesn't exist and probably won't for a long time especially in light of major money game producers utterly abandoning effort and advancement opting for the infinitely less programmer intensive MP -why should they invest in AI? 20 million dollar AI may be fantastic while 15 million dollar may fail in entirety...

Edited by froggyluv

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Yeah, AI is difficult to do. In fact, I think it is the single most difficult thing to do in a game. The fact that we do not have robots that can safely cross a street irl but can beat people at chess shows that interacting with a dynamic, unpredictable world is horrifically difficult unless you have an evolved brain.

They are going in the right direction, though. Right now I see them try to preserve themselves by hunkering down, which I hope gets only adjusted as far as cover exploitation, and not removed again altogether because of people who don´t know how to use the combat modes. Mission designers may need overrides, but those can be provided even if the vanilla AI stays as "low" as it is right now.

Problems with clever pathfinding (ie, flanking, using cover to sneak up on tanks, and deciding when to pull back or not pull back, etc), tactical context thinking and perception are still there, though, and they remain the major flaw. Along with the fact that the AI does not know the concept of an area target, and thus cannot do suppressive or covering fire, or recon by fire, or anything like that. That´s also why they are too lethal if they spot you, and not lethal enough when they do not spot you (and they also are too good at spotting you, especially over large distances.)

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Does anyone else believe this thread is not serving its original purpose. I see very little of the AI devs on here, probably cos it isn't very much use.

I suggest that rather having a free for all, that the devs ask for feedback on specific features that get put into the dev build daily, such as "how is the AI stances in today's build? etc

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