General Discussion (dev branch)

[gliptal 25]

I really wished for once that NATO didn't mean US. I know that the US are mostly notorious for this, but for once I would have loved to see a game that doesn't equate the US as the main "good guys" but someone else - Brits, Germans, French, Czech, Polish, or a mix of those. In a future, mostly fictional scenario, that would have been possible.Or Israel, for the matter, after all, they're using their tanks and their rifles.

In any case, thanks for shedding some light on this, interesting read.

Hey, you left Italians out! :(

Yay!

[Bobylein 1]

-snip- wrong thread

okay there was none, so I opened it:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162218-Unofficial-Story-discussion-thread

Edited August 24, 2013 by Bobylein

[instagoat 133]

Not really. Our Top Beer Lifter spent some weeks working through various prototypes before we agreed on the current CSAT flag. We did research and put together various ideas. Each symbol represents a treaty member signatory and the clean lines reflect something like the new technocratic focus. You might be surprised how many weird and ugly symbols are out there! E.g.:

• Shaghai Cooperation Organisation
  
• Union of South American Nations
  
• CSTO
  

In my view, using arabic/persian/eastern symbology would be cheap and rather pointless. CSAT isn't a product of a religious or particularly ethnic grouping, per se; rather, as the name suggests, it's a 'strategic' alliance of economic and geopolitical interests. A power bloc extending from the Pacific to the Mediterranean.

That's not quite the name. It's Canton Protocol Strategic Alliance Treaty. The 'Canton Protocol' was treaty signed in Canton by the member states. It was written in the previous back story information, I believe. We still need to extend the background/faction/context information on the web. Recently we've been focused on/consumed by getting the basic structure of the factions/ORBAT up to speed (note first bullet point) and getting the sandbox platform and features performing better. This has been our top priority up to this point, alongside Altis, and I can make little apology for that, given the circumstances of the development, and this has been part of the renewed focus of development. :)

Despite the other issues we've faced, I think that, anyway, Iran invading France and Germany didn't inspire much. Iran invading Western Europe - why? Because they're foreign bad guys? Ok. :j: Much of the original story must remain in place, though, so if you liked it, the campaign is somewhat still rooted in the early decisions made; some decisions and assets are rather set in stone, but the focus has pivoted away from special forces operators and so on.

Anyway, the situation we're looking at now is where traditional powers in Europe are looking inward at their flat-lining economies, mass unemployment, and broken societies - decades of recession in the west. We're talking about a situation that's seen major civil disorder across European capitals, the fall of governments and economies all along the Mediterranean rim.

Altis is something like a nation the size and scope of Malta. It's strategically important because it's the new 'front line' between growing CSAT influence and diminishing NATO authority and resources. This is a nation that's experienced brutal civil war. Previously a part of the EU, its economy collapsed, which was followed by a period of violent rioting and disorder. In the midst of this, the armed forces seized power and put down down the rioting with a heavy hand.

It was at this point in time that NATO moved in and put a stop to the brutality: an enforced cease-fire with boots on the ground. Partly under the auspices of humanitarian motivation - and partly because the new military regime were moving closer toward CSAT's sphere of influence - NATO observation bases on the island were considered to be important, and - before Altis broke away from the EU - The British used to have Sovereign Base Area agreements in place, with Altis having been part of the Empire up until gaining their independence in the 60s.

As time passed, the US became more concerned about strategic interests and influence in the Pacific, while European powers struggle with serious domestic issues and investment. Traditional strategic enemies aren't going to march through the streets of Paris and Berlin, but angry, disaffected citizens might well. Consequently, the US-led force based on Altis is now in the process of a staged drawdown, tasked to decommission the bases and coordinate the scrapping of military equipment and vehicles that they can't afford to ship back home.

Well, you're doing a lot of work with that paintbrush of yours at the moment! :cool:

AnyHOO... I think I've derailed the development branch discussion for long enough. As Pettka stated, he'll investigate what might be done about some of the technical concerns of the flags on the soldiers, but makes no promises. I believe there's another thread for the story related discussions somewhere!

Best,

RiE

Excellent explanation, many thanks!

This alleviates most of my fears. I gotta explain, though, what made me think that the original precept was so promising was that we basically had zero information about it. There's some negative vibes going around regarding the features supposedly "cut" (many of which are actually still in the game, which was kind of ignored.), and I kind of am affected by that with regards to the story, since that is one really important part for me with regards to the game.

I´ll try not to overthink it and just let myself be surprised with what you can come up with.

From an aesthetical point of view, can we still get the velcro tabs on the CSAT uniforms back, please? I love velcro. :I

Cheers

Instagoat

[dale0404 5]

I love velcro. :I

Keep your private life out of these discussion boards InstaGoat!!!

And yeah loving the explanation.

[Hellbeard 10]

IMO the dust/dirt around the MBT cannon when it shoots has to be way more than it's at the current state.

See it here: http://www.gamestar.de/videos/gamescom-2013,95/arma-3,71557.html

Compared to a real life Merkava shooting: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1017298_591560654200142_69310583_n.jpg

I know the ground surface might be more sandy and different, but Greece is not known for it's juicy grass landscapes. So I'd say increase the dirt. A lot. :)

Otherwise, I'm glad we have more Israeli stuff inside a game, seems rare these days.

I served in the IDF tank corps in combat role and still do in the reserve forces and can give some more feedback to improve the realism/fidelity. Please forgive me if this is an inappropriate place for this discussion I only wish to help improve the game.

The dust the tank raises as it shoots is considerable(and very impressive) and can include small debris but is highly dependant on how much fine dust and small particles are around. The picture you provided is from an area where tanks regularly train so the sand there is ground into extremely fine particles- it is therefore not representative of how a "regular" area will express.

A big difference that I've noted was the muzzle flash is very small. Look at this for comparison:

Also, there is a secondary, delayed puff of smoke that comes out after each shot.

Another interesting difference is in the type of smoke grenades the vehicles launch. Not all AFV's shoot the same type.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viMdktuyaeU

Note the muzzle flash, lack of dust (ground is wet). The type of smoke launched is bursting and not "flowing" (at 00:41).

Another crucial aspect is that many modern AFV's as can be seen in the video also have the capability of creating a smoke screen using the engine exhaust, which seems to be lacking. Incidentally, the above video is the same as the one on the Merkava wikipedia page.

"...Many armoured fighting vehicles can create smoke screens in a similar way, generally by injecting diesel fuel onto the hot exhaust."

Edit: I guess a mod moved the post to it's proper location. I'm quoting a post here from a different thread. Thank you mysterious mod and sorry for the trouble. :)

Edited August 24, 2013 by Hellbeard
Post moved.

[instagoat 133]

Tanks firing is really mostly environmental dust. The actual fireball is really short. There's tons of videos of T-72s of various types fighting in Syria, where you can see how the overpressure blast from the main gun shot tosses up enough dust to cover a city block after two or three shots. And after that, if the tank remains in place, it won't throw up dust anymore simply because it's blown everything that could be blown up away already.

I think some sort of non spherical animated particles would be helpful in making tanks firing look more impressive.

[Alwarren 2767]

Hey, you left Italians out! :(

Yay!

My apologies :D

[Victim9l3 11]

Personally I don't know why all you guys are worried about flags on uniforms. The fact that BI thought they could make anyone happy by making "NATO" U.S. units but putting those U.S. units in vehicles that belong to other countries. To me it's insulting that U.S. crewman are fighting in Israeli armor. Both Merkava and Panther. NATO has never had a uniform. U.N. does, or at least blue helmets. But NATO has always been the countries in NATO. U.S. crew with U.S. vehicles. BAF wearing BAF uniforms. And if BI wants to put Israeli stuff in the game then they should respect them and make them the crew of those vehicles. ARMA 3 is a completely generic game. Pink and orange sky with generic armies just randomly put together. And every army has the exact same stuff. Every turret is the same. Half of the vehicles are the same for each army. So it's ridiculous to me that you guys are complaining about flags. NATO will never have a single uniform for all countries. If Bi needed more time to make the game right, they should push it back.

I'm only complaining because BI has always raised the bar. I expect a quality product from them. I'm not complaining because I don't like the game. It's just that they need to get it right.

[comp_uter15776 1]

Personally I don't know why all you guys are worried about flags on uniforms. The fact that BI thought they could make anyone happy by making "NATO" U.S. units but putting those U.S. units in vehicles that belong to other countries. To me it's insulting that U.S. crewman are fighting in Israeli armor. Both Merkava and Panther. NATO has never had a uniform. U.N. does, or at least blue helmets. But NATO has always been the countries in NATO. U.S. crew with U.S. vehicles. BAF wearing BAF uniforms. And if BI wants to put Israeli stuff in the game then they should respect them and make them the crew of those vehicles. ARMA 3 is a completely generic game. Pink and orange sky with generic armies just randomly put together. And every army has the exact same stuff. Every turret is the same. Half of the vehicles are the same for each army. So it's ridiculous to me that you guys are complaining about flags. NATO will never have a single uniform for all countries. If Bi needed more time to make the game right, they should push it back.

I'm only complaining because BI has always raised the bar. I expect a quality product from them. I'm not complaining because I don't like the game. It's just that they need to get it right.

I'm a tad confused by your point... you wonder why people are complaining and then go and say it's insulting they mix nationalities?

[HitmanTwoActual 188]

I'm a tad confused by your point... you wonder why people are complaining and then go and say it's insulting they mix nationalities?

No he is saying there are bigger problems with the mixes then just flags, but up until this point no one has said much about any of it.

[gliptal 25]

About MBTs, I also knew of a "debris killing zone", where anyone standing n meters in front and in an x° arc relative to the main cannon would be killed simply by the flying debris kicked up by the main cannon firing. Is this true?

Yay!

[maturin 12]

About MBTs, I also knew of a "debris killing zone", where anyone standing n meters in front and in an x° arc relative to the main cannon would be killed simply by the flying debris kicked up by the main cannon firing. Is this true?

Yay!

Not the debris, it's mostly overpressure from the muzzle blast that causes injury, although I'm sure you could also be burned or get unlucky with a pebble.

If the tank is firing KE rounds, the sabot petals can make huge holes in things for hundreds of meters out past the barrel.

ACE3 will implement all this.

[Hellbeard 10]

About MBTs, I also knew of a "debris killing zone", where anyone standing n meters in front and in an x° arc relative to the main cannon would be killed simply by the flying debris kicked up by the main cannon firing. Is this true?

Yay!

I don't know if you'd die but if you stood close in front of a firing tank you'll get hit by a blast overpressure, might take out your ears or cause a concussion. Just look at the picture of the "muzzle flash", it's a huge explosion. The noise of it is very very very loud. Like, twenty times louder than you expect it to be. The whole machine recoils as it shoots, not just the gun.

My theory about the dust kicking up is that it's disturbed by the pressure wave and physical shock wave transmitted by the tank to the ground and pulled up by the consequent negative pressure.

There is a chance, though, if the tank were firing a discarding sabot round that the sabot pieces could hit and kill you. I've never seen evidence that debris flies away towards the shooting direction. It's more of an omnidirectional sort of blast wave, the body of the tank obstructing some of it.

[odie0351 67]

I don't know if you'd die but if you stood close in front of a firing tank you'll get hit by a blast overpressure, might take out your ears or cause a concussion. Just look at the picture of the "muzzle flash", it's a huge explosion. The noise of it is very very very loud. Like, twenty times louder than you expect it to be. The whole machine recoils as it shoots, not just the gun.

My theory about the dust kicking up is that it's disturbed by the pressure wave and physical shock wave transmitted by the tank to the ground and pulled up by the consequent negative pressure.

There is a chance, though, if the tank were firing a discarding sabot round that the sabot pieces could hit and kill you. I've never seen evidence that debris flies away towards the shooting direction. It's more of an omnidirectional sort of blast wave, the body of the tank obstructing some of it.

Too bad implementing something like this would be an AI death trap, likewise with backblast from certain rocket launchers.:(

[V-zwo_Null 10]

Your lungs will tear.

[Tyl3r99 41]

not long till altis gentlemen!!

[old_painless 182]

Too bad implementing something like this would be an AI death trap, likewise with backblast from certain rocket launchers.:(

GL4 had routines, where AI would avoid being behind a launcher being fired

[instagoat 133]

Not the debris, it's mostly overpressure from the muzzle blast that causes injury, although I'm sure you could also be burned or get unlucky with a pebble.

If the tank is firing KE rounds, the sabot petals can make huge holes in things for hundreds of meters out past the barrel.

ACE3 will implement all this.

There is a video on youtube of an M1 firing in an Iraqi street.

The blast overpressure was PICKING UP BRICKS from the ground and throwing them about 15 - 20 meters away from around the muzzle of the tank. Even standing behind the tank, without ear protection, you will definitely be deaf after a single shot from the main gun. These systems are incredibly violent.

Another anecdote, a friend of mine was in the finnish army. They fired carl gustav and APILAS on practice, and she said that the bang from the APILAS was enough to make your ears ring from 200 meters away without ear protection, and when you fired it it didn't matter wether you had earpro or not, you'd have trouble hearing for a bit.

What has to be noted is that the violence of these weapons doesn't come from the things they actually throw around, it's just the noise. Just by firing blank shells loaded up to the top with powder and some sort of end cap, you would blow out windows, rattle off doors and blast paint from the walls out to a hundred meters from the muzzle. The manuals you can find online do not make clear how terrible this noise is. The videos online often do not either, because the overwhelmed microphones turn it just into an electric pop or crackle.

Also, backblast from RPGs isn't as deadly as people make it out to be. There are videos on youtube now of Syrian rebels firing RPG 7, 29, B-10s and SPG-9s from -indoors-. There are videos of people standing just barely off the axis of bore and just getting knocked around. The launchers will kill you if you stand immediately behind them or get unlucky and are hit by a part of the launcher charge thrown out the back, but for AI purposes, I think if anything at all should happen, there should be a knockdown as well as some sort of concussion simulation.

The violence of these weapons needs to be made clear. Right now no explosion sounds good in this game, which is rather unfortunate. I get reminded of tyres bursting. BAPSssshhhsheewww... the rifles sound so amazing compared to the explosions. The new Autocannon sounds are excellent though, so I am hopeful that these will be changed too. The particle and physical simulation needs to be updated too, though.

[V-zwo_Null 10]

FYI

Here's another thing that bothers me.

An armed UGV will always start with active engine.

This is the reason why unused UGV are identified as active or manned vehicles by enemies.

And they are hot from the start.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13284

[CombatComm1 10]

It appears triggers are F'd at the moment. Don't know if it's been mentioned.

The condition buttons do not work. Present, not present etc.

[Alwarren 2767]

It appears triggers are F'd at the moment. Don't know if it's been mentioned.

The condition buttons do not work. Present, not present etc.

You sure about that? They work here, as they are supposed to do, with the latest dev build. Are you maybe using a mod?

[mistyronin 1181]

To me it's insulting that U.S. crewman are fighting in Israeli armor. Both Merkava and Panther.

Why is that? On one hand we are talking about year 2035, so by then U.S. Army could have use that vehicles or an adaption of those ( at least the Namer is has already been considered: http://www.army-technology.com/news/newsus-army-ndv-assessments ).

And the finnish Patria AMV ( I don't remember the nick in the game ) is already been tested by the USMC, and have ordered 600.

NATO has never had a uniform.

Again, in 20 years you don't know what's gonna happen. An even in that case, the uniforms are supposed to be only from US soldiers from the 7th div ( the one that we will play in the campaign ).

Half of the vehicles are the same for each army.

Though that's not true, the only vehicles that are right now the same are the UAV/UGV. And the Patria AMV and the Otokar Arma can be quite similar ( one has 8x8 and other 6x6 ) but thats because the russians wanted something quite similar.

But even if that was true, if you compare some different actual armies you'll see that a lot of them share vehicles. For example a plane like the C130 Hercules is used by a lot of countries ( here you have a list ).

In fact I suggest you to check a bit in what is based every vehicle/weapon in the game, and you'll see that is quite a correct bet ( obviously no one knows what's gonna be in the future ). Another really interesting vehicle is the amphibious Fennek ( that gives the AAF light vehicle an advantage among the others ).

Really good job from BI, and the game hasn't been released, so expect more variety (ambulances, repair, etc. ).

[CombatComm1 10]

You sure about that? They work here, as they are supposed to do, with the latest dev build. Are you maybe using a mod?

No mods. Was using mods but disabled them and still. Happens to me on both dev and stable. Tried both. Re validated my files, one had to be reeaquired, but still no joy on the triggers. All condition buttons are not selectable. Very frustrating as I cant work on my missions in the editor. AND if its just me who is experiencing this then I am a bit worried.

I was even using game booster and shut that off to see if it helped. I am lost.

I'll mention this as well, the triggers I plopped down when they were were working are all dysfunctional as well with no condition selected.

here are my specs if that helps:

Windows 8 64

i7 2700K stock overclock

nVidia GTX 680 4 GB

16 GB RAM

[nodunit 397]

I forgot one very important artistic freedom...Armaverse is not our universe, what happens in our reality does not mirror what happens there, ergo anything is possible. RAH-99, perfect example.

[PantherAl 11]

About MBTs, I also knew of a "debris killing zone", where anyone standing n meters in front and in an x° arc relative to the main cannon would be killed simply by the flying debris kicked up by the main cannon firing. Is this true?

Yay!

Here you go:

Do note, the Merkava is equipped with a copy of the M256, so this is accurate for the Arma3 Merkava.