Stealth Kills?

[metalcraze 290]

NO ONE is saying that there will be people doing 360 knifing bullshit because you can't do that in Arma

Add one-hit knives like people want ITT and there will be just that.

Come close to some dude, press magical knife button, watch a short (a few seconds) animation play, dude is dead and falls to the ground like a feather.

This isn't about killing a dude with a knife being possible (which it obviously is). It's about people wanting it done in such way that you can go and knife out the whole base with nobody noticing or making any noise. If there was anything but zero chance of failure - 'stealth knives' camp would whine non stop. They already complain that AI hears them coming from behind, how dare it not being deaf.

Edited March 28, 2013 by metalcraze

[Lauxman 10]

Bayonets would be nice, they're not done terribly bad in the previous ARMA mods. Just shoddy.

[Arcani 1]

Come close to some dude, press magical knife button, watch a short (a few seconds) animation play, dude is dead and falls to the ground like a feather.

This isn't about killing a dude with a knife being possible (which it obviously is). It's about people wanting it done in such way that you can go and knife out the whole base with nobody noticing or making any noise. If there was anything but zero chance of failure - 'stealth knives' camp would whine non stop. They already complain that AI hears them coming from behind, how dare it not being deaf.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying you can kill some lone sentries that no one is watching stealthily. However, if an enemy sees you they'll raise the alarm and then (try to) kill you. This way, if you kill the sentries you can move your forces up to better positions and if you're spotted you have to engage. See this

.

On the mode of knifing:

How about this system?

-Stealth: You can come up behind someone and you trigger an assassination (An AI won't mind, as long as the killer isn't detected. If it's PvP, well then, the victim wasn't aware enough, I mean, you're supposed to be on the lookout).

-Battle: A bayonet charge (or a stock attack, or a quick knife draw, etc.)- The attacker has to press a key (let's use H-for hand to hand), the defender has 1.5 seconds reaction time (He's warned about it) to press H against the attacker.

1) If the defender presses H in time the attack is deflected.

2) If the defender doesn't press H in time the attack succeeds and the victim is struck damage on the part the attacker was aiming at: neck or head= dead; body= wounded severely, unless he has swift medical attention basically dead; arm= less aiming stability, less chances of counter attack if another CQC attack; leg= less mobility.

After this happens:

1) The attacked can try again, or just shoot, or retreat, etc.

2) The defender is either dead or wounded and pushed backwards. The attacker can try to kill the defender or move on if the defender is dead or incapacitated.

[Jex 1]

I think you find "stealth kills" are only found in movies and video games.

[Alfie275 1]

We already have silenced pistols. If the situation is such that a silenced pistol is too loud I doubt a knife kill will go unnoticed for long.

[comc 1]

We already have silenced pistols. If the situation is such that a silenced pistol is too loud I doubt a knife kill will go unnoticed for long.

Even silenced, any weapon is still very loud. It just makes it harder to determine the source of the sound.

[AdamWayne 1]

Add one-hit knives like people want ITT and there will be just that.

Come close to some dude, press magical knife button, watch a short (a few seconds) animation play, dude is dead and falls to the ground like a feather.

This isn't about killing a dude with a knife being possible (which it obviously is). It's about people wanting it done in such way that you can go and knife out the whole base with nobody noticing or making any noise. If there was anything but zero chance of failure - 'stealth knives' camp would whine non stop. They already complain that AI hears them coming from behind, how dare it not being deaf.

Seriously, metal, NO ONE has said that that's what they want. You seem to think that it's physically impossible to kill someone silently with a knife. What Arcani JUST stated is what people want. Obviously we don't want to go around stabbing people rapidly like Far Cry 3 where no-one notices, and it takes less than 3 seconds. We want the option to be able to silently take a single person out carefully without using a suppressed weapon, because they can still hear the shot within a certain radius.

[cifordayzserver 119]

Got to say I'm shocked this thread is this long with such divisive opinions...

Long story short knives are both something that just about every soldier in the world is equipped with and trained to use in certain situations... I think if someone want's to bring a knife to a gun fight in arma let them...

just don't make it cartoony and unstoppable as mentioned.

Knife strike if undetected/blocked is lethal and silent, however there should be detection probability factors in play. IE you only have a 40pct chance of a successful sneak attack, Or make have a chance that the knife will be loud enough for the victim to hear it being drawn... unless it's already out, in which case the risk is high to get detected/blocked or shot before you have the chance to stab...

It should be a swing-able melee weapon that does very little damage in active combat, but capable of killing in a single un-detected/blocked attack...

You could even build in "silenced kill" or not... IE only if you cover the mouth and stab from behind is it silent. If you miss or get blocked then the victim alerts other teammates and starts shooting...

Once detected you should have a longer weapon switch animation so you are forced to either fight it out with the knife or risk getting killed by the time you switch weapons... NO sheathing your knife while running... but maybe you could drop it?

There is no reason to NOT include a knife and slient kills other than no one being willing to make it properly balanced and animated correctly.

[Variable 322]

Any stealth knife kill implementation, that will not be arcadish, that will be modeled in a way that realistically takes into account a serious array of situational and environmental variables to determine success and detection, will probably not be worth the time and resources needed to develop such a complex and sided feature.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Variable

[nodunit 397]

By that logic they should toss the clothing changing system, remove the ability to strip down to your pants or swap helmets, any of it. Because that doesn't even come into combat and since you can't steal enemy uniforms, it doesn't allow much in the way for mission creation.

[Variable 322]

By that logic they should toss the clothing changing system, remove the ability to strip down to your pants or swap helmets, any of it.

You are right, the same logic applies here. I don't see how the clothing changing system contributes a major benefit to the game in the long run.

[Dallas 9]

Any stealth knife kill implementation, that will not be arcadish, that will be modeled in a way that realistically takes into account a serious array of situational and environmental variables to determine success and detection, will probably not be worth the time and resources needed to develop such a complex and sided feature.

Yea, it seems like the stealth melee idea becomes more and more complex trying to incorporate itself into ArmA. It just doesn't fit into the core gameplay/engine. Especially when you think of an engine that also frowns on bunny hopping, it's probably not interested in the type of knife/defibrillator close combat seen in other shooters.

[nodunit 397]

You are right, the same logic applies here. I don't see how the clothing changing system contributes a major benefit to the game in the long run.

Aye..could have but then geneva..oh well.

Yea, it seems like the stealth melee idea becomes more and more complex trying to incorporate itself into ArmA. It just doesn't fit into the core gameplay/engine. Especially when you think of an engine that also frowns on bunny hopping, it's probably not interested in the type of knife/defibrillator close combat seen in other shooters.

It doesn't? Or it hasn't? Up to A3 we've had controls that frown on getting up close and personal as well as hanging around towns and cities, pushing away from any indoor combat due to how painful it was to move around.

But now with tighter controls, even larger, more dense and enterable locals Arma 3 could very well add close quarters to its array.

You don't need bunny hop or twitch movement to use close quarters, and in a way Arma 3 already has a system that could benefit melee/bladed weaponry.

Bleeding is already in, there is a future planned armor system that could slow you down and potentially nullify small arms, and could also nullify knives thus complimenting the system to make players really think about using armor in towns or not.

The damage model on infantry is already present in the guise of head, chest, arms and legs as is a bleeding system. The only thing missing is the code, weapon and animations...which I realize is downplaying it but the potential is certainly there. Furthermore this could expand from simple 'knives' in the standard game to other forms of melee by mods and addons.

[asulikit11 1]

Don't.

[Arcani 1]

just don't make it cartoony and unstoppable as mentioned.

Knife strike if undetected/blocked is lethal and silent, however there should be detection probability factors in play. IE you only have a 40pct chance of a successful sneak attack, Or make have a chance that the knife will be loud enough for the victim to hear it being drawn... unless it's already out, in which case the risk is high to get detected/blocked or shot before you have the chance to stab...

It should be a swing-able melee weapon that does very little damage in active combat, but capable of killing in a single un-detected/blocked attack...

You could even build in "silenced kill" or not... IE only if you cover the mouth and stab from behind is it silent. If you miss or get blocked then the victim alerts other teammates and starts shooting...

Once detected you should have a longer weapon switch animation so you are forced to either fight it out with the knife or risk getting killed by the time you switch weapons... NO sheathing your knife while running... but maybe you could drop it?

There is no reason to NOT include a knife and slient kills other than no one being willing to make it properly balanced and animated correctly.

You don't need bunny hop or twitch movement to use close quarters, and in a way Arma 3 already has a system that could benefit melee/bladed weaponry.

Bleeding is already in, there is a future planned armor system that could slow you down and potentially nullify small arms, and could also nullify knives thus complimenting the system to make players really think about using armor in towns or not.

The damage model on infantry is already present in the guise of head, chest, arms and legs as is a bleeding system. The only thing missing is the code, weapon and animations...which I realize is downplaying it but the potential is certainly there. Furthermore this could expand from simple 'knives' in the standard game to other forms of melee by mods and addons.

Thank you!

Also, for those that don't want knives:

Take them out of your inventory! (It'd be that hard)

And if you don't want AI with knives:

Ask BI to make a setting under difficulty that let's the AI do melee kills or not.

[RadmusPrime 1]

As a person who is just getting into Arma and PC gaming in general I will say that i am hoping to get away from the knife button. I've never understood how a scratch from a knife kills instantly while a .45 round just hurts. MAG was the first game of the last generation on console to try and balance the knife aspect. Making it only kill from the flank. But still people insisted on circling each other swinging knives. WHY!? The army (or PMC in this case) gave you a perfectly functioning fire arm to shoot someone with.

[bad benson 1733]

knifing is a shooter sickness that doesn't belong in arma as a core feature. it can easily be scripted for missions where it fits. stop requesting features and get to work guys:p

[ProfTournesol 956]

knifing is a shooter sickness that doesn't belong in arma as a core feature. it can easily be scripted for missions where it fits. stop requesting features and get to work guys:p

A vanilla non scripted option for modders is much awaited.

[metalcraze 290]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying you can kill some lone sentries that no one is watching stealthily. However, if an enemy sees you they'll raise the alarm and then (try to) kill you. This way, if you kill the sentries you can move your forces up to better positions and if you're spotted you have to engage. See this

.

But that's what you are saying. "AI won't mind".

Why wouldn't it mind being killed? Same goes for players (how will they counter a dude running at them with a magical 1 hit-kill knife? 1 hit knifing him themselves LOL?). Sounds like 1 button press 100% success knife kill is what you want.

There always has to be a chance of failure, because enemy soldiers are trained too (incl. countering being grabbed from behind) instead of "AI won't mind". That's not what ArmA is. It's not an action game where you can feel like a cool specop from movies.

Edited March 29, 2013 by metalcraze

[v0lus 1]

I'd suggest knives in the game, albeit the knife is not perfect and the enemy does not die instantly.

EDIT: then how else will we stealth kill?

Edited March 29, 2013 by v0lus

[bad benson 1733]

A vanilla non scripted option for modders is much awaited.

i absolutely agree in terms of general melee. me and a friend had something decent working for arma 2. but getting it to work included lots of workaround scripting for the dammage handling and making new animations for everything holding a melee weapon since lots of arma's anims are full body. so yea i would appreciate that a lot myself!

but the push of one button = instakill...the so called "stealth kill" can be easily done via scripting.

[PN11A 2]

From a realism point of view this will be bad for gameplay.

[katipo66 94]

I love that the game strives to be realistic and no Arma fan wants any arena style gameplay like bunny hopping insta knifing etc but would love to see an Arma version of a knife takedown, so many times already in this Alpha I have crept up on snipers in them hills, right up behind them and watch them looking for targets and thinking how a stealth kill would definitely work in this game, I like the small target on the back of neck option, also maybe a time frame that you need to continue to hold the button/s to complete the kill, like 10seconds or something like that? Would need some thought put into it if they haven't already but it would definitely enhance the game and take it up another level :)

That's not what ArmA is. It's not an action game where you can feel like a cool specop from movies.

Actually, it is... the same game where anyone can fly jets, helos or drive tanks, join the battle on the frontline or be that cool specop behind enemy lines just like in the movies, there's no sticker on the box that says none of these things are permitted or you are required to join some clan and follow strict orders, attend trainings and speak military speak on your comms, I'm not ridiculing that in anyway either, I wish I had the dedication/time to be that involved.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Katipo66

[PFC Magician 10]

i absolutely agree in terms of general melee. me and a friend had something decent working for arma 2. but getting it to work included lots of workaround scripting for the dammage handling and making new animations for everything holding a melee weapon since lots of arma's anims are full body. so yea i would appreciate that a lot myself!

but the push of one button = instakill...the so called "stealth kill" can be easily done via scripting.

Not only are animations and damage, there must be a good stealth system, where the AI to behave properly:

environmental sounds concealment

grassland coverage

target states: alert, relaxed, busy

pd:arma2oa improved by adding the whispers in stealth mode, so there is already something in that direction

[marcai 1]

Knives exist. Knives kill people. Soldiers are almost universally armed with knives. For those kicking up a fuss, a knife to a vital area is just as lethal as a gun to the same one, so long as the target bleeds heavily. Bayonet charges are rare, but do happen in modern warfare situations, and are often successful in repelling enemy attacks. I believe a British soldier was awarded a medal or two last year for successfully leading a bayonet charge against the Taliban whilst pinned by enemy fire and low on ammunition. Reasons to use a knife over a gun are pretty few and far between, but currently the series lacks a mechanic for a soldier to actually do anything up close if out of ammo, barring running around in circles and hoping to throw his enemy's aim off. Rifle butting, stabbing, punching- things that in reality almost every soldier is taught to do in dire situations are not represented in Arma. These things area realistic and would be a boon to gameplay; They don't need to be amazingly effective, but having the OPTION is great.