Stealth Kills?

[HyperU2 11]

Suppression is more about concealing the whereabouts of the shooter than the presence of one, even so the AI will be on you in half a second. I don't mind them being alerted, it's their response I'd like to see worked on.

[Friendorpho 10]

Mass and velocity are also a huge factor in suppressing a weapon. A suppressor is only part of the equation if you are still firing full load rounds. If you load sub-sonic rounds with less gunpowder, a suppressor is much more effective. There is a drawback though, that smaller rounds that rely on velocity to begin with (5.56 for example) lack the mass to remain effective at longer ranges when fired at sub-sonic speeds. The Russian 9x39mm type rounds are all sub-sonic rounds, but rely on weight and brute force (as well as a hardened steel tip/core) to deal damage at a slower velocity.

It is possible with the right suppressor, firearm, and round to get results similar to the Hollywood James Bond suppressor sound. To go through the trouble of doing so is not practical on a large-scale military level, and as such military suppressors attempt to simply reduce the signature of firing a weapon. The suppressor that is now available for the Barrett M107A1 does a good job of masking the shooters exact location, and makes it harder to positively identify the tell-tale .50 cal firing signature. However the weapon is far from quiet (obviously).

[froggyluv 2130]

In M4 : if you have a good silencer , which are very expensive it is alot silenced than in your video

Cool stuff there. Well as an untrained soldier I certainly wouldn't think the second suppression shot was a gunshot if just heard at random while i'd be pretty sure of the first.

As most Arma denizens are soldiers, it'd be nice to see varying levels of response from the curious to the startled but unsure, to the certain -in animation aspects at least.

[celery 8]

By the way, shouldn't the MP5SD6 be a much more powerful weapon than the suppressed M4 and AKS-74U when they're using subsonic ammunition (9mm vs. 5.45-5.56mm at same velocity)? Right now the suppressed AKS-74U is horrifyingly powerful and the MP5 is weak as shit.

[rye1 21]

Yes it's weak as piss but it's a pistol round. The only annoyance I get with it is sometimes having to give multiple headshots, it's all about shot placement not veloccity, it isn't mentioned a lot in wound ballistics, maybe for fragmenting, barrier penetration and weight retention but that's it, mainly due to the fact that velocity drops violently upon impact and sectional density steps in.

It's about the anatomical structure you hit and then what damage happens off that.. in Arma with the hitdetection and wounding this clearly shows it needs to be improved. The beta helps.

For pistol calibres you are looking for good penetration of around 12 to 18 inches of more to obviously reach the vitals from all angles.

P.S. 9mm is still a subsonic pistol round, though higher MV than a pistol... not very damaging to body tissue.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Rye

[EddiePrice 16]

What would be nice if the AI was realistic enough to allow you to get away with stealth kills. The number of times I've taken some one out with a head shot with a suppressed weapon from range and in the split second of him dying his mate, who's 50m from him facing away, dives to the ground like he's in contact.

I don't need to see animated stealth kills as such, it just would be nice to be able to get away with using stealthier methods past the first shot fired.

[NoRailgunner 0]

How is it realistic to kill one and his mate won't hear falling him down, rattling sound of his weapon/gear or not even sense that something is wrong? Only stupid bots don't sense their environment.... :rolleyes:

lPMx86wXaKY

[Beagle 684]

How is it realistic to kill one and his mate won't hear falling him down, rattling sound of his weapon/gear or not even sense that something is wrong? Only stupid bots don't sense their environment.... :rolleyes:

Now, thats pretty sums it up how STUPID so called Stealth is depicted in games ;)

[celery 8]

Of course, in the actual game the enemies start looking for you when a light breaks near them.

[metalcraze 290]

How is it realistic to kill one and his mate won't hear falling him down, rattling sound of his weapon/gear or not even sense that something is wrong?

Don't you know that if you have a silenced weapon everything has no sound. Haven't you watched hollywood movies?

[Darkguerilla 10]

Like I said I'm not real mil so...

Thanks for posting most informatively. :)

[MADDOGdb7 10]

Suppressed weapons are not silent, especially not M4s. Suppressed weapons also may have quite a noticeable muzzleflash, especially at dark.

AI is quite blind and deaf in ArmA2, what are you talking about? BIS should teach it to keep shooting when you hide behind a bush, not forget about the player the moment you run behind it.

AI doesn't hear silenced weapons at these distances, unless it's a silenced sniper rifle which is quite loud.

Here's an example: Do not quote pictures/videos! - you can perfectly hear this 100m away

More, including silenced M4s

Do not quote pictures/videos!

The only silent "silenced" SMG present in-game is MP5. And it indeed can't be heard by AI past ~20-30m

I'm not doubting your claim but do you know whether they were using subsonic rounds. Because, at least in the first video, it sounded as if the round went supersonic.

As far as knives go I have no problem with them I just can't really see them being used practically, for stealth killing with a knife maybe you could come up behind the enemy slit his throat while you're covering his mouth and once he's dead lie him on the ground. Not practical but at least it's moderately stealthy.

Edited October 20, 2011 by W0lle

[dragon01 902]

These two videos don't demonstrate silencers used for stealth. These demonstrate silencers used so the shooter won't have to wear bulky ear protection. And bullets are still supersonic.

This pistol: http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/brit/welrod-silent-e.html is even better than James Bond-style silenced PPK. It makes no sound at all when firing (only when cycling the action), so completely silencing a weapon is possible.

With subsonic rounds, plenty of distance from the target and some ambient sound, a shot from a regular silenced weapon can be mistaken for a car door slam. Specops weapons, like VSS Vintorez or AS Val would most likely be even quieter (Spetsnaz also has the MSP pistol, which is said to be as quiet as Welrod). So, enemy engaging after hearing one silenced shot from 50m away should not happen. They should notice the body, look around in confusion, perhaps start running, but not return fire perfectly aimed at the player.

As for knives, it'd be nice if there was a "stealth kill" animation, allowing for quietly taking down a target after sneaking up to him. Also, knife usage should heavily depend on fatigue. Try running 100m in full combat gear, then still having the strength to effectively stab somebody. Rifle butt attacks, pistol whipping and plain old clobbering somebody with a fist would be useful for defending against getting stabbed if you're surprised and not have the time to pull the knife out. Fatigue should also affect stealth, if you're breaching heavily, you're going to be audible from a greater distance.

So much for COD-style "knife running" if that's implemented. If you try that in AIII, and you'll ineffectually take a jab at the target's neck, get the knife knocked out of your hand, then get socked with a fist or whatever the target was holding at the time. Exactly what you'd expect to happen in real life. If you want to attack somebody with a knife, you have to surprise him from behind and have enough strength to quickly kill him. Military personnel is, for most part, trained in disarming an enemy with bare hands, so frontal attack would work only on civilians (and you shouldn't do that to them anyway).

[froggyluv 2130]

The AI would need to be tuned as well for knife attacks which would be tough at least with current animations.

If I was standing guard and heard a noise right behind me I'd turn with da quickness ready to fire - AI would need CQB/rapid turn and maybe backstep animation. Could be compelling...

If i ever saw an AI try to punch me I would die from laughter..could you imagine DevHeaven with all of the 'stuck in punch mode' bugs

Edited October 20, 2011 by froggyluv

[dragon01 902]

Well, it'd be up to BI to actually make it work and work right. This implementation should work from theoretical standpoint, but given the BIS "traditions" on that subject, it has potential for some hilarious bugs, of which some will most likely be seen in the initial release. But then, it's by no means restricted to close combat. AI should only try to clobber anybody in case of being attacked with a knife and finding out about it early enough, but given it's AI we're talking about, and a BIS game, it's likely that it'll occasionally do some irrational (and funny) things.

And I agree that it'd need new animations, but there's a lot of room for improvement in the current system.

[rye1 21]

I'm not doubting your claim but do you know whether they were using subsonic rounds. Because, at least in the first video, it sounded as if the round went supersonic.

As far as knives go I have no problem with them I just can't really see them being used practically, for stealth killing with a knife maybe you could come up behind the enemy slit his throat while you're covering his mouth and once he's dead lie him on the ground. Not practical but at least it's moderately stealthy.

I suppose the mission is based around the features so someone imaginitive would hopefully come up with some good ones... or a mission not made around may just lead to the opportunity :D And I've been in a few games (though rare) where I've ran out of ammo, been over-run or close enough to use one... I don't know to what effect though. :p

I've done it too many times on I44. Chargin' those MG Nests. :cool:

---------- Post added at 03:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 PM ----------

It makes no sound at all when firing (only when cycling the action), so completely silencing a weapon is possible.

Awesome!

Reminds me of:

. Even found a Sterling.

[roberthammer 582]

Awesome!

Reminds me of:

. Even found a Sterling.

That Welrod have No moving parts , which means it is no semi auto - you must reload it each round

Russians made PSS silent pistol , which is semi auto and silent

[metalcraze 290]

They should notice the body, look around in confusion, perhaps start running, but not return fire perfectly aimed at the player.

They don't.

I did tests with a silenced M4 and no ghillie.

From 70-80m to enemies: lying in the high grass on Proving Grounds I fired into the air. Enemies didn't react at all. However if I keep sending bullets over their heads for them to hear sonic cracks they get down to the ground and then start looking for the shooter (can't find me though).

However if I hit a tree bark next to me they turn to my side. Don't always notice me, unless I'm crouching.

From 40-50m: when I fire over enemy heads once in a while they don't react. However if I do that repeatedly and especially several bullets at once - they notice and start looking for me and often notice me - which is realistic - since I can perfectly see them lying down as well.

So it's perfectly realistic, considering how loud silenced M4 is (hey I can hear it too from 40m in-game)

As for knives, it'd be nice if there was a "stealth kill" animation, allowing for quietly taking down a target after sneaking up to him.

Where did myth about knives being stealth weapons came?

First you need to get to the enemy, and you being in full, noisy gear he may easily hear you even slowly walking 10m away. Then you need to grab him and this will cause him to struggle (noise) and most likely pull the trigger (reflexes plus ubernoise). Knives don't kill in 0.00001 secs when you barely touched an enemy with them.

They are not stealth weapons, they are last resort weapons with a very low chance of saving your life when you can't fire a rifle or a pistol and provided an enemy won't kill you while you go for the knife.

In other words there's a reason you don't see SWAT running inside buildings with "stealthy" knives but with SMGs instead.

Edited October 21, 2011 by metalcraze

[rye1 21]

SWAT are LE. Totally different. But I will tell you now, most SWAT members carry blades - mainly folded. Very useful. And their role is completely different.

You explain to me your definition of stealth and a manner, the weaponary and all the factors or characteristics needed of which to undertake an action within a war time environment which classifies as 'stealthy'.

Simply put aslong as the act (WHATEVER THE ACT MAY BE) is done in a covert enough way to avoid or prevent detection then job done.

[metalcraze 290]

My definition? OK.

In a war time environment covert way is not about running guns blazing and knife chopping.

It's getting in, doing the task and getting out unnoticed, not leaving a pile of dead bodies behind.

Why SWAT example? Because they are one of the few guys who get close and personal with enemies but that's not war where every soldier is trained to be highly aware of what's going on and patrols are not there so they can get chopped by specops, they are there making sure that nobody will. If it was easy to just stealthily eliminate whole bases of enemies during wars - everyone would do that instead of fighting during daylight with noticeable losses.

OFP CWC did stealth missions very well. You can, and in fact should, complete them without killing unless specifically tasked so.

In fact even ArmA campaign did it right. You have a mission where you need to eliminate an enemy officer in a broad daylight. With a loud, unsilenced sniper rifle. There are a lot of enemy patrols walking around. You need to avoid them (again it's a day), get in and get out. Firing a weapon is extremely dangerous.

That's a great stealth mission. But for some reason many people here think that stealth is all about doing a small scale massacre.

Edited October 21, 2011 by metalcraze

[rye1 21]

So what would you definition of a stealth kill be? To do the act and get away with it?

[metalcraze 290]

To finish the task without making a mess. If the task is killing someone with nobody noticing - then so it should be, but not at a price of a blind and deaf AI, and not through a magical instakill knife button. Find a good bush 100m away, place a bullet into target's head after making sure it's safe to do that, get out.

So far BIS games were forcing you to play like that during stealth missions. It's better to be left that way.

Edited October 21, 2011 by metalcraze

[rye1 21]

Stealth is remaining undetected. What do you mean a mess?

Creating more available options when remaining silent isn't a negative to me.

[metalcraze 290]

I edited the post to expand my reasoning.

More options shouldn't be about messing AI up and adding hollywoodish stuff.

[rye1 21]

It's not hollywood. Your perception of it is hollywood because you're limiting it's useage. It can be used, it just needs certain factors to be considered and weighed up before so.

Here's a good read on H2H: http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/index.php?showtopic=10229.