Stealth Kills?

[PuFu 4600]

Swiss Army and Chinese PLA will be proud with their Swiss knives. (Swiss knife did sold the copyright of product to China years ago)

Well, what could we do with a Swiss knife on a battlefield?

FPDR

there is no proper way of implementing knife or hand to hand combat in a FPS video game that emphasis on some sort of realism/simulation.

[dysta 10]

FPDR

there is no proper way of implementing knife or hand to hand combat in a FPS video game that emphasis on some sort of realism/simulation.

You mean knife is only making sense when not in melee purpose.

Well, then stealth kill would be better with a modern crossbow instead.

[Pulverizer 1]

there is no proper way of implementing knife or hand to hand combat in a FPS video game that emphasis on some sort of realism/simulation.

I'd say melee combat in Mount & Blade Warband is easily on par what firearms/armour/air combat is in ArmA.

[PuFu 4600]

no what i mean is that i see no way to EASILY implement knives/melee combat in ArmAX.

Mount and Blade is focused on melee weapons, hence why the whole system is pretty well made. Arma is not.

Besides, we are talking about stealth kills, not a hash and bash system. might be wrong, but last time i've tried M&B, there was no such thing

Edited August 13, 2011 by PuFu

[Darkguerilla 10]

I do like the idea of knives, but I do have to agree that implementation would be rather difficult.

Especially in determining what attacks types are available from different angles and heights and then constructing animations that look awesome to match all of the situations. Come on you have to admit that a poor animation in an awesome looking game like ArmA 3 just wouldn't do.

[Daniel 0]

A poor animation wouldn't bother me that much. I have just as much fun in Arma as I did in OFP, and that frankly looked like crap most of the time. :D

The really important bit is how easy it would be to just walk up to someone and stab and kill them. It's going to differ entirely depending on your own capability, that of your victim, how alert they are, how much gear they're wearing, and however many other things. Quick example: the Iranian bug soldier's seem to have some sort of environment seal around their necks. How's that going to affect your knife? Should there be the risk of just injuring them or failing all together? How should a human player know that some bastard just tried to knife them but it caught on their radio headset?

I'd say at some point it would be useful to have some form of melee defence for when you're out of everything or simply unarmed. A punch, tackle, or swing of the rifle. Personally i'd love to see bayonets, although I appreciate many major armed forces no longer train with them. If there's another British styled expansion or DLC, it would be very useful, gameplay wise, to have bayonets for section attacks on positions. I know they've seen some use in Iraq and Afghanistan, but i'm sure they'd see more in a total war scenario a la Arma 3. There's nothing overly complicated about them, you just empty your mag at whoever you just charged up to, then proceed to stick whoever's still alive until you have time to reload. Apparently ballistic body armour is fairly ineffective against knives, i'd imagine a bayonet wouldn't have much trouble.

Anyway, back to your stealth ninja kills...

Edited August 14, 2011 by Daniel

[metalcraze 290]

*sigh* Then we shouldn't invent a knife since it's "unrealistic" on REAL battlefield.

It's just impossible to implement in a game without cutting corners with a bulldozer.

That's the bottomline of the arguments against knife here.

See nobody can come up with something better than

a) one-button-kill

b) silly (Simon-says) minigame

Considering that on a real battlefield soldiers don't use the knife at all apart from some really really rare chance it may come in handy - trying to implement it in ArmA3 will be a massive waste of time on BIS side.

I don't understand why people are not happy with just putting a bullet into enemy's head from a silenced weapon - the perfect stealth kill.

Compared to silenced weapons knives are not stealthy at all. Why do you forget that the victim will try to struggle making a lot of noise, including pushing the trigger on his weapon due to reflexes?

ArmA is not a hollywood movie-game like BF or CoD.

Edited August 14, 2011 by metalcraze

[lightspeed_aust 681]

You don't use knives irl, you use a silenced pistol. No knives plz

[Daniel 0]

Why do you forget that the victim will try to struggle making a lot of noise, including pushing the trigger on his weapon due to reflexes?

Now that would be cool. :D

[rye1 21]

How often do the Marines drive a hummer over a pack of insurgents in Iraq/Afghanistan, as if they were bowling pins? That shit happen all the time in "milsims" :p

True, Arma is mission-orientated. People will make missions around the features with focus on using them. :D It's made for doing anything you want.

Metalcraze, you could consider a number of things a mini-game. From lining up and adjusting for a shot with a sniper rifle and such. You could even consider that a one-touch button, click it over and over again to kill. But you're right, I can only think of other games that have implemented it successfully and I can't consider them going into Arma without the two of which you state or a heck of a lot of work that won't happen.

If SD weapons are to work:

1) Fix one AI spotting you and the rest instantly knowing where you are

2) Fix the detection system of spotting you way out, there's plenty of youtube videos of people using a sniper way out and the AI just turning and shooting

3) Work on above with implementing a form of being stealthy against the AI through AI tweaks and scripts (e.g. depends on light level, weight, movement speed, how you move, camouflage)

4) Fix other similar or related bugs you encounter (which would possibly mean a few of the close combat cons in Arma or even micro-terrain)

That would be my list. Knock off 3 and 4 for all I care, they just need some tweaking to enhance Arma a bit.

[metalcraze 290]

1) Fix one AI spotting you and the rest instantly knowing where you are

Actually AI say what they spot to the rest of the team the moment they spot that 'object' (which is exactly what I do in coop as well). The only way to "fix" this is to make the rest of AIs in that squad to check out that direction and see if they can spot you themselves (which may produce quite a CPU overhead) - but they will now know about you regardless.

Not getting spotted while killing is the best way.

(e.g. depends on light level, weight, movement speed, how you move, camouflage)

FYI speed of movement, stance, camouflage, whether you carry a launcher, and what's in front and behind of you already affects whether and how fast AI will spot you. As for light

[71976] Fixed: AI vision was not affected by light sources.

Guess it also affects what AI sees too, but haven't tested it as I always avoid light sources.

Stealth is definitely OK in the game. In fact at times I feel like AI is too blind and deaf - like on a moonless night you can crouch less than 10m in front of them and they won't spot you.

Various surfaces producing different levels of noise is something I definitely want to see though.

Edited August 14, 2011 by metalcraze

[Pulverizer 1]

See nobody can come up with something better than

a) one-button-kill

b) silly (Simon-says) minigame

Easy. This is neither a or b:

1. Select Knife

2. Set firemode selector to "Grab head & cut throat"

3. Hold shift to creep slowly with left arm up, otherwise movement is normal

4. Aproach target from behind (170-190 degrees), and face the same direction as him

5. When right next to target, hit fire to grab head, after the grab is complete, hit fire the second time to slit throat. If you are too early, you will miss and have to press fire button again after the anim resets, unless the target reacts (presses the fire button if another player) and breaks free. If you take too long after the grab, the target will break free and probably shoot you while you try to select another weapon.

Other firemodes could be used for general stabbing and slashing (useful for breaking certain things like windows, disabling vehicles silently or in close combat when completely out of ammo etc).

If the conditions are not perfect for the animation, it will simply not trigger. This is where skill and experience would come to play.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Pulverizer

[rye1 21]

You know that ain't a bad idea. It wouldn't clog up the firemode selector since it would be 'only when this weapon is selected'.

And thanks for the reply metalcraze, I've had the opposite experiences where I've been behind someone and they've turned around randomly while raising the gun! Psychic! But, we tested it and you can get around 30-10m away, even closer if they come at an oblique angle towards you or with objects in the way, if you stay really still. Head movement (ALT) does not effect them but actual body movement does. That was a while ago, sure camouflage and extra scripts added would make it better nowadays.

[Haystack15 10]

I don't understand why people are not happy with just putting a bullet into enemy's head from a silenced weapon - the perfect stealth kill.

Word

You don't use knives irl, you use a silenced pistol. No knives plz

I know, Right.

I mean ffs people. ARMA III is in the future. Knife kills are so 1950's. Time to upgrade to the Newest "Suppressor" Technology. :p

[rye1 21]

You cannot put it as bluntly and black and white as you do and you don't. Because you're not predicting a situation of which it may be applicable, you're just saying zip, nil, never which is untrue. Projectile technology is old too, time has nothing to do with this. When luxuries aren't there to simply upgrade then you'll always fall back on something:- simply put the use of a blunt, sharp or non-conventional weapon may be that cushion.

Again, no one is against the use of suppressors. Stated above, with cons that need improved. As this also classes as a 'stealth' kill, a kill of which has a minimal amount of chance compared to other uses to alerting others.

[HyperU2 11]

You don't use knives irl, you use a silenced pistol. No knives plz

I'd wager there have been more knife kills in recent conflicts than by silenced pistols.

Edited August 14, 2011 by HyperU2

[purepassion 22]

Which is no argument at all :rolleyes: ;)

[Pulverizer 1]

I mean ffs people. ARMA III is in the future. Knife kills are so 1950's. Time to upgrade to the Newest "Suppressor" Technology. :p

Insurgents and such would prefer 1950 technology over 2025 technology due to easy availability and cheap prices.

Not to mention that A3 can be any time perioid (real or fictional) with the right addons. Having some basic framework in place for melee combat would help ww2 modders for example.

[HyperU2 11]

Which is no argument at all :rolleyes: ;)

I missed my quote button. But then again I wasn't arguing, we can now. :rolleyes: I'm thinking things I can't post.

[purepassion 22]

I think what people simply dont understand is: YES it would be good to have the ability to fight with a knife and YES it is used in real combat BUT: (and this is the essential part) for a game like Arma 3, you cant measure with the standarts you know from other games. Arma will never feature panic knifing etc and what you have to understand is, that the problem is hidden in the

IMPLEMENTATION!...

;) for arma, like i said before, things are very different. The game itself has an completely different game dynamic and style right away but then we also have the scary world of the technical aspect. Hands down, BIS will have problems with that. It was always their goal to achieve the highest grade of realism plus gameplay so a usual splinter cell styled system would not be sufficient for them. Sure, if the team wants to accept this immense challenge for not so great gameplay benefits, do it. I will appreciate it.

And guys, some screens revealed details about the new animation system which will have new properties, meaning animated fingers etc. I think the right way for the team would be to make it possible for the community which then thinks about an concept and implements it if desired.

To sum it up: +1 point for the idea, -3 for implementation = -2 Points= no good ;)

[Pulverizer 1]

NOTHING in Arma is implemented to 100% realism. Why should knives have a different standard?

[metalcraze 290]

See Pulverizer again repeats the idea "make enemies deaf + make enemies not make any noise when getting killed + one button killz"

NOTHING in Arma is implemented to 100% realism. Why should knives have a different standard?

Well if knives in your idea use auto-target with one hit kills why don't we make all weapons use auto-target with one hit kills?

Why should guns have a different standard?

Edited August 14, 2011 by metalcraze

[Pulverizer 1]

Now when did I do that? Pls refer to my post on the previous page where I described a simple system that would be implementable in Arma, yet is way more involved than your straw-man argument.

[metalcraze 290]

1. Select Knife

2. Set firemode selector to "Grab head & cut throat"

3. Hold shift to creep slowly with left arm up, otherwise movement is normal

4. Aproach target from behind (170-190 degrees), and face the same direction as him

5. When right next to target, hit fire to grab head, after the grab is complete, hit fire the second time to slit throat. If you are too early, you will miss and have to press fire button again after the anim resets, unless the target reacts (presses the fire button if another player) and breaks free. If you take too long after the grab, the target will break free and probably shoot you while you try to select another weapon.

This

And this is downright ridiculous

While we are at it why don't we also implement bullet dodging? Like when you fire at a player he must press a fire button and if he does that in time he dodges the bullet!

Great idea!

I also want a firemode selector for guns in a game called "Aim at head and BOOM headshot"

[Pulverizer 1]

You are entitled to your opinion, and straw-man arguments once again, but how else are you going to control a video game without pressing any buttons? Motion control is not there yet.

Comparing grabbing animations to automatic shooting, now that is ridiculous.

---------- Post added at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------

There would be no auto-target. "Targeting" would be you manually maneuvering to the exact spot to perform the animation. And sure, since it's so important to you, why not also manually have to aim at the correct point on the target for the move to succeed.