A view of ArmA II multiplayer from a TF2, CSS, BF2 player

[nkenny 1057]

PvPscene has the long and short of it. Particularly the notions of altering or focusing the Warfare game mode to a bite sized package more accommodating for new players-- or simply those of us who cannot/will not spend 3 hrs playing a single scenario.

Joining a gaming clan or community is really the best choice. The most profitable time I have in Arma2 is playing with www.nopryl.com -- essentially one of the of the many communities of players. We have a weekly play schedule, with a monthly ultra-realism session. When times are slow we hop in on one of the Public servers as a fireteam (or more)

Servers vary wildly in terms of game experience. That's just the way it is. Try a few and you'll quickly see that yes, Indeed it is quite possible to end up with fulfilling teamplay in arma2-- it sure helps if you have one or ten mates to help drag the teamwork out of people first!

My greatest annoyance with some arma2 players is that they front an opinion that the height of MP mission design is apparently to emulate Battlefield2.

-k

Edited April 28, 2011 by NkEnNy

[SWAT_BigBear 0]

PvPscene has the long and short of it. Particularly the notions of altering or focusing the Warfare game mode to a bite sized package more accommodating for new players-- or simply those of us who cannot/will not spend 3 hrs playing a single scenario.

-k

I've also wondered why it's not in the parameters, vanilla cti's have it.

OP has a good point towards the "mods" issue, I myself gave up with them.

[c0nse-0n3r 19]

And what missions do you propose that BIS would run to satisfy the majority of players who would join?

Thats a good question...

Guess there really isn't much for vanilla MP missions :(

Most coop scenarios and campaigns arent great for big groups

Some of the popular user missions like BE warfare, insurgency and domi (no mods) would be cool, seeing as BIS pays much attention to the community

Might be harder than it sounds, the devs seem to stay pretty busy :cool:

Not everyones a fan of each gamemode, but at least it could give a common place to battle or when no good pub servers are active (pretty rare)

Servers vary wildly in terms of game experience. That's just the way it is. Try a few and you'll quickly see that yes, Indeed it is quite possible to end up with fulfilling teamplay in arma2-- it sure helps if you have one or ten mates to help drag the teamwork out of people first!

Amen. Sometimes it takes prodding but i've had great games on pub servers when some decent plyrs are around. :D

Clans/communities are awesome too, meet some good players that way.

My only issue is how divided it can get the playerbase, and they're often playing on own clan servers

Sometimes I miss the steady MP population/server formula of games like BF..

but if you look at the variety and extent ARMA2 offers, there's no comparison of course :cool:

[-)rStrangelove 0]

The invention of MHQ respawn / flag spawns at base marks the day teamwork died in public missions.

My 2 cents. Ppl dont work together if they dont have to.

[sickboy 13]

About the Gameplay:

I'd say create a mission the way you want it, a server the way you want it, perhaps a community the way you want it, and get playing the way you want it?

I don't know, but if I want something, I make it happen. It always makes me wonder why people think other people have to invest their time and efforts into what YOU want?

Sorry but it seems we all like to point a finger and blame, it's easy to call out the big names like Domination or otherwise, but if people play it there is need/request for it,

IMO they aren't the ones who destroy anything, they only provide something people want.

Also, in my experience in all the games i've played, and since the beginning ofp, arma, and now arma 2; public play can be fine, but generally you will find that private servers have things much better arranged.

Perhaps public server admins are more than fed up having their games ruined by some people, or investing a lot while getting little in return. I know the life of private server admins can be hard, let alone the public.

I agree with Defunkt: If you want to blame anyone, blame the lazy, expecting to receive everything, consumer, who writes page long posts in forums, but don't lift a single finger beyond pointing it at other people.

Pissing all over the people who actually try to make a difference (believe me this costs a lot of energy, blood, sweat, tears and even money!), eventually leading to these people loosing motivation / interest, and what then?

About the Mods:

Mods, among other things, are what keep the game alive, but it is also a problem in MP, while bigger for public play than for private play I'd say.

The answer to mods in MP is Six Updater and Addon Sync.

When server admins and players both embrace it, it sorts out 90% of the issues with mods in MP.

Obviously if such manager would be incorporated into the game, it would be even better, but let's talk about achievable goals, instead of expecting miracles.

The problem is though, that it's much easier to call it crappy software and throw it in the waste bin without even trying to understand it's usages and how to use it,

let alone support it.

The funny thing is that people want solutions since forever, then people like me try to solve the issues with software like SU incl a strong world wide mirror network,

and instead of embracing it, it is shit all over.

Then one day you wonder why 'nobody is doing anything about it', and you blame everyone but your self..

Really - stop putting all that energy in hate, anger and discussing the topic endlessly, and start investing and supporting solutions like SU.

It does everything needed for mods in MP, uses differential delta patching tech to minimize bandwidth (= big win for hosters, and also a win for downloaders),

access to over 100 mods on the official network alone!, can verify and repair mod folders, startgame / join servers with the right mods, supports additional and auto configuration for servers,

and a lot more. (And all of that provided at about 0-effort for the user! So instead of manually installing and managing say 20 mods, following readme's and what not, with SU, it all comes down to one or a few clicks!)

Know this: I am 1 person (the only one) who develops and maintains the application, the mirror network, and all the mods available on the network.

Imagine what you can do with 2 persons, or 5, or 10!

http://six.dev-heaven.net/wagn/Six_Updater

Perfect example:

I know the pain of installing ACE with the damned new installer

The interesting part is that after installing the updater, the user just clicks Run Updater, and all ACE mods are installed for him, and the game started with the correct -mod= line.

Next time there's an update, the user gets notified and he just clicks 'Run updater' again.

Somehow that is 'pain' and 'damned new installer'. Which is hilarious to me really.

(Perhaps he is referring to the updater before 2.x, dunno).

As to the ACE versions mess:

From the beginning ACE has stable releases every 1-2 months and ongoing development updates every week (now moving to every two weeks; http://ace.dev-heaven.net/wagn/ACE_switches_to_Maintenance_mode).

Stable releases are downloadable and installable in casual manner from your favorite community sites, while the ongoing development updates come down through six updater (with very good reason).

Server admins and players can choose which version to run, we always recommend running the latest ongoing development version, and if you can't keep up, to run the stable version.

But what happens is, they install the ongoing development version anyway, even though they don't plan to update it when there is a new version,

so now everyone who updates can't connect to that server because he's not up2date.

It wouldn't be so bad if they would provide an SU Custom Repos or an AddonSync repo with that exact version, but that doesn't happen always either.

In short - re running ACE versions - server admins should make a choice, always run the latest ongoing dev, or run the latest stable, nothing in between.

And it would be best if they provide a SU custom repos or AddonSync repos with that version.

As to running mod-less public servers:

Nobody is stopping you or anyone else to set it up. Why does it have to come from BIS, or someone else, why can it not come from yourself?

Edited April 26, 2011 by Sickboy

[DZR_Mikhail 15]

I can't add more on the matter to Sickboys post above. I can only say that SU 2.0 is the application everyone dreamed about since the very first day the first addon was made. This app is going to solve almost all problems with mods and servers! It's a huge leap in direction of consolidating the community.

The new Six Updater practically saved my squad from total mess with addons and made it possible for us to have our custom Linux server with custom repository! Custom repository is awesome! You can choose which version you need for your players and server and upload it. Then you give simplest link to everyone interested. They follow the link and they SU gets all the custom repo mods for them without interfereing with their other addons... In a single freaking click! Can you imagine? I can't :D

It's one of the most important features for me as a community leader and admin. But new fantastic features appear everyday and what is more valuable - Sickboy is always ready to help and at this moment he aded almost every crazy feature I asked for.

We'd better not waste time and energy on arguing or swearing at SU, but install it RIGHT NOW, run it, spend 20 minutes of your wonderful life to read a manual and have a most totally unique and effective software ever existing for Armed Assault community!

If you fail to achieve any minor or major goals with SU for your squad\community. Please, write me a PM or visit dev-heaven and file a ticket with your problem. I guarantee your problem will be solved in no time. :)

In the end, I'd like to do what I've done hundred times during these months of SU testing and haven't got tired yet =) ...

I'd like to say thank you, Sickboy for Six Updater! You rule!

Edited April 26, 2011 by zvukoper

[metalcraze 290]

I know the pain of installing ACE with the damned new installer.

....You just press a single button and nothing else?

Ah the pain! It hurts so much!

Also dude stop playing shitty public PvP or pseudo-Coop which is domination and everything will be alright.

ArmA2 is the game best played with clans. Much better than that repetitive amoeba-complexity-level TF2 and CS.

[.kju 3245]

Without public play there will be no healthy MP community. Like it or not, yet this is what BI has to aim for.

[metalcraze 290]

Somehow the most healthy community are the guys playing on private servers.

Why? Because they are forced to follow the simple rules of playing as a team instead of rambo'ing and dying unless they want to get kicked so the mission doesn't turn into a complete mess with team-kills and everybody going about their own business which is plaguing public servers all the time.

Of course this isn't only ArmA's problem. The mess is a trait of public gaming in all games but games like Unreal Tournament or Quake 3 where it doesn't matter who kills who or which way you are playing.

But ArmA2 isn't UT now is it?

[nkenny 1057]

I'll tell you that highlevel Quake3 (or 1, 2) matches definitely aren't random bash-em-ups. Also it DEFINITELY matters whom kills whom. How else would you accrue kills and win the match? While it may appear that closed communities form the heart and soul of arma2-- everyone has to start somewhere.

An accommodating and welcoming online public goes a long way to forming new communities or inviting potential players into existing ones. Arma2s poor user interface creates a bit of a hurdle, but nothing that can't be improved upon. As an old school gamer I'd say that the cries for 'Lack of teamwork in public play' is hardly specific to Arma2. Despite our best wishes Arma2 isn't a golden chariot of perfect online gaming.

Here's the kicker. If you want teamwork you might have to make an effort yourselves. Connect to Teamspeak. Use VOIP. Read up on some military manuals, gaming resources, or whatnot. Its been my experience that on a 20 player server you have 18 players all pining and complaining about the lack of teamplay-- in their own rooms or after the game has ended.

Take a few steps to invite teamwork in and you'll get it.

-k

[.kju 3245]

metalcraze you don't understand. Please take the time to think about.

Only with new players, teams can recruit new guys right?

New guys get their first impression from SP (campaign, tutorials) or by jumping onto a

random server (or at least try to..).

So private servers are not the first step - they are in fact the last step.

Only with more players, the community can grow, have more talent and contributing people.

And drop your attitude about "UT". You only demonstrate that you have no insights into

it at all - even more you show pure ignorance.

One can play fast paced, tactical infantry focused gameplay (almost) as good in ArmA like in UT.

So yes ArmA is also UT - of course ArmA is a lot more; like UT is with mods or custom missions.

[Robalo 465]

I agree that addon hell can be a real issue and cause people to give up.

On one hand, the complex requirements for joining some of the servers can guarantee that you will find a more mature group playing there. It's a sort of a noob-filter :)

On the other hand, as a server admin, you have to compromise in order to make things more accesible, otherwise it's hard to keep the player count up.

This is why we have tools like Yoma's Addon Sync and Sickboy's Six Updater.

Of course, for newcomers, it sounds like, what ?!? I have the game already, installed, updated and all, now I have to download another program to play on servers ? Well, yes, it's not the ideal scenario, but if you really want this to improve, support these guys that are making these nice free tools for us on their own expense, start using them, and let BIS know that this is what the community needs.

[metalcraze 290]

My first multiplayer experience was back in OFP with the guys I know.

Then I moved on to play with online clans.

Every time I tried to play on public servers it always was a mess.

There is no way you can fix it.

Anyone (I hope) understands that if they want organized MP gaming - clan is a best solution. If they just want to jump in, run around and shoot - well then they should expect that the rest of the guys on public server came there to do that too.

One can play fast paced, tactical infantry focused gameplay (almost) as good in ArmA like in UT.

No you can't. Of course many people gush and whine that you should and then we get unneeded stuff like animation "fixes" instead of BIS fixing stuff that needs to be fixed.

So yes ArmA is also UT - of course ArmA is a lot more; like UT is with mods or custom missions.

Is this some kind of a joke?

Somehow, thankfully, I don't see anyone running around, jumping in corridors and putting rockets into each other at the same frequency as bullets.

I of course understand that, unfortunately, many people want to see ArmA as a yet another BF.

[xeno 234]

Oh, yet another Domina bashing thread. Every week another one, gets old after all those years, really.

And even the same forum moderator takes part in it, like always.

And nobody seems to know what the real problem is, amazing. It sits right in front of your monitor.

You all have the same tools like Benny, Kiljoy and I have, the game, the ingame editor and a text editor.

Now make it better as you all seem to know it better.

Not that hard, needs just lots of time and lots of knowledge and experience.

But don't expect that the gameplay you like is also what others like.

And don't expect any help from BIS, we are MP wise at the same level as we were with ArmA 1 release.

And metalcraze, without public playing no online game and no clan would exist.

And I personally know lots of players which don't want to join a clan, for whatever reason.

Other than that it's not worth it to release any more missions for such a community. No at all.

Xeno

[NoRailgunner 0]

Imho it would be easier if (new) people could see + read informations about the mission and the requirements in a small extra window when going into MP.

For example:

+ missionname - day/night time - island - season - mission type - min/max players ("sort" + "filter" option should be included and working)

+ required addons, mods and the version of it

+ link to website and download required additional stuff

+ add a nice little preview/ingame/sexy picture?

Just another thought about an ingame userfriendly and up-to-date mp menu:

Isn't it possible to readout this specific mission content and get it back as text format? Or make an extra secure "MP lobby carrier" in this mission pbo??

About missions that are running mostly on many public servers - blame + flame the server admins. It's their job to change them and to take care of the people playing on it. You can't shoot any mission designer, mod+addon maker or BIS dev for the server admins "lazy-comfy-stasis". (missions do have parameters but somehow even that's too much for some people to change...)

Good thing is that if people have actually played different missions w/o mods, addons - they are lurking for more. Guess they are sometimes only "afraid" or too biased for the A2OA/CO-experiment & experience! :)

In the end its imho better if BIS revamps their MP interface even a bit more towards user friendliness (exact infos about mission + mods/addon) and modern interface design.

Yes - I know proper interface design isn't the best subject/theme when talking to "native" devs/programmers/scripters...

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Without public play there will be no healthy MP community. Like it or not, yet this is what BI has to aim for.

This is extremely true. Without public games there is really not much recruitment going on. During easter BIS sold two new copies of Arma2 CO (I helped influence :)), and when they asked "like, where are the games then?", I was ashamed having to answer "there aren't any, the game was brutalized by hackers and cheaters so 'everyone' joined private games instead".

As for mods, as Robalo_AS says it: "It's a sort of a noob-filter". The game is desperate for new players, and you want to filter out "noobs"? On public, get to know them, train them, and recruit them, and ban the idiots (idiots != noobs). Todays noobs will outshoot you tomorrow...

As for Domination - I simply love it. Tonnes of features, well written code, pretty efficient for its scope, and fairly easy to learn after a few tries. It's one single mission having to deal with that takes me anywhere, with plenty of settings to set it up "our way". And on a closed server, it's as teamplay oriented as anything else. It's main problem is lack of a scalability setting (which I think would be hard to "get right" anyway):

Easy - No scaling, free for all. Everyone gets everything wrt weapons.

Medium - Scales with number of players, more limits with number of players.

Hard - Full realism, you play your class and nothing more.

Problem is, even with such a setting, rest assured most public servers would run on Easy. When people (like myself) puts limits and restrictions in, it doesn't win any popularity contests. No limits would be fine for closed servers where teamplay exists anyway. On a public free for all server, it's bound to fail teamplay wise (and it's not only in Arma).

So the main problem for public games not being teamplay oriented are due to the players themselves.

If all major missions went away from "free for all", would the gamers adapt to some enforced rules, or would they leave for another game or game mode?

On a sidenote on Domination; I've tried plenty of other missions, most (so far every single one that I have tried) with major problems such as no replayability, tonnes of error messages, faulty features, broken mission file(doesn't even load). Domination isn't error free, but its scope is also beyond most other missions I've tried.

Bottom line:

1) Hackers and cheaters forced most to quit public games. I haven't played a public game in about 6 months or so, and our own server is practically never open anymore.

2) Players want free for all, they don't like being controlled or have limits imposed on them. That's a recipe for bad gameplay unless there is someone around forcing teamwork.

3) Mods (and managing of them) and missions are only part of the problem, and as already stated; used to shut out noobs - which in the end are needed if the platform is to survive. I love ACE, but I'm not using it anymore, as we have computer illiterates and I'm sick of being helpdesk several hours each time we play to get things up and running (also my specs are low so I' already struggling with frames).

[[frl]myke 14]

Oh, yet another Domina bashing thread. Every week another one, gets old after all those years, really.

And even the same forum moderator takes part in it, like always.

And nobody seems to know what the real problem is, amazing. It sits right in front of your monitor.

You all have the same tools like Benny, Kiljoy and I have, the game, the ingame editor and a text editor.

Now make it better as you all seem to know it better.

Not that hard, needs just lots of time and lots of knowledge and experience.

But don't expect that the gameplay you like is also what others like.

And don't expect any help from BIS, we are MP wise at the same level as we were with ArmA 1 release.

And metalcraze, without public playing no online game and no clan would exist.

And I personally know lots of players which don't want to join a clan, for whatever reason.

Other than that it's not worth it to release any more missions for such a community. No at all.

Xeno

OMFG, Drama queen inbound.

From what i was reading, it was about people not playing as a team on public servers which mostly play Domination. Both are simple facts and do not state any word about the quality of the mission itself. Myself i'm just back from a round of Domination, played with my clan and i enjoyed it.

But maybe since you're "winner of 4 jpg medals" you're beyond any critics and all we're allowed to do is to praise you for the mission you've made.

Seriously, get over it and grow up.

[metalcraze 290]

Players want free for all, they don't like being controlled or have limits imposed on them.

Guess that's why CoD is so popular.

Public gaming is irrelevant when it comes to organized gaming.

The majority of people playing on public servers just come there to run around and shoot. That's all they ever wanted. Fine. Let them do that. But then they complain on forums - "oh make it dumber! I want free for all! I want PvP like in Battlefield" not realizing that maybe not all games should be like BF?

Like when some rare voices say "...uhm BIS add that breathing simulation from VBS2?" they always get silenced by "please BIS make changing stances and weapons so fast that even CoD will burst with envy"

And, speaking for myself here, if I wanted BF I would play BF and if I wanted something much less arcadey I would play ArmA?

I don't see what most of them can add to a tactical coop, the way ArmA is meant to be played, if they "don't want to be limited", just want to run around respawning every minute.

And by tactical coop I mean proper coop missions like in, say, Sander's coop pack that have more interesting objectives than 'blow up a radio tower #2514 in a town #6813 guarded by two squads #7105'

[WarriorM4 10]

You want teamwork then join a realism clan that uses structure and tactics.That will solve that problem.

[Mr. Charles 22]

/Snip

QFT (5 characters)

[smookie 11]

I also have to agree with all the three points. I believe bad condition of public play is unfortuately related to the "mass MP missions", which due to their size encourage random people to solo. Lack of teamwork is also connected with the JIP feature introduced in ArmA2 allowing random people to hop in into your game and easily turn your carefully planned tactics into dust. Back in OFP (yeah i know, i tend to bring up the topic too often, but damn, that was the right example to follow) without a possibility to join running game, a player would think twice before joining a coop (oriented towards a specific goal) and most likely make a better use out of it. That said, I wouldn't like the JIP feature to go away... perhaps an option to turn it off would improve the situation?

Edited April 26, 2011 by Smookie

[pathetic_berserker 4]

Without public play there will be no healthy MP community. Like it or not, yet this is what BI has to aim for.

Yep. I think this is what it comes down to.

This isn't about bashing dom or Mods or clans because these are what make ArmA great. But at the same time I can't see the harm in expecting to take the game home, install, patch and start playing some decent online. Sure that intial experience may not compare to organised clan nights with you fav mods but in my view vanila A2 is capable of being as good if not better than other games, but how a newbie can decypher what appears in the server list is the issue I hear most.

Perhaps BIS should have done a little more to help noobs feel like they get more out of box but they didn't. In fine BIS form they seem to have left it up to the commumity to solve.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Pathetic_Berserker

[celery 8]

Guess that's why CoD is so popular.

Public gaming is irrelevant when it comes to organized gaming.

The majority of people playing on public servers just come there to run around and shoot. That's all they ever wanted. Fine. Let them do that. But then they complain on forums - "oh make it dumber! I want free for all! I want PvP like in Battlefield" not realizing that maybe not all games should be like BF?

Like when some rare voices say "...uhm BIS add that breathing simulation from VBS2?" they always get silenced by "please BIS make changing stances and weapons so fast that even CoD will burst with envy"

And, speaking for myself here, if I wanted BF I would play BF and if I wanted something much less arcadey I would play ArmA?

I don't see what most of them can add to a tactical coop, the way ArmA is meant to be played, if they "don't want to be limited", just want to run around respawning every minute.

And by tactical coop I mean proper coop missions like in, say, Sander's coop pack that have more interesting objectives than 'blow up a radio tower #2514 in a town #6813 guarded by two squads #7105'

You with your stupid strawmanific CoD rants again.

[pbishop 10]

Guess that's why CoD is so popular.

Public gaming is irrelevant when it comes to organized gaming.

The majority of people playing on public servers just come there to run around and shoot. That's all they ever wanted. Fine. Let them do that. But then they complain on forums - "oh make it dumber! I want free for all! I want PvP like in Battlefield" not realizing that maybe not all games should be like BF?

Now, did you ever "REALIZE" that its really hard to get into. Im not on the forums complaining, but being new to arma, it has been excessively hard to find out how to play with organized people and get off the public servers. I think it comes down to the fact that you sir, think this forum and all its help comes boxed with the game. Some of us were not here in the OFP days or even arma 1 days. So getting up to speed with some genius like yourself is extreemly hard to do. And maybe if you didnt lock your servers, and admined them so that those of us who are actually looking for those types of games could get in easily and kick the douches.

But then again, i must be the dumbest person in the world, because it took me a few months to get the mods all sorted out so i could load one. And i must really just be looking for the bf feeling seeing how i could only figure out how to play on public servers. Eventhough i bought the game because people as helpful as yourself boast the teamplay and community i was looking for.

Attitudes like yours are no help to new people. And I must say, any new person reading the forums for guides or help to get off the public servers might find your words a bit insulting. So next time you think you can be just as insightful as you have, keep it to yourself.

And as a side note, when i was getting started, we were two trying to figure out how to get on servers. My friend gave up because it was just too damn frustrating and time consuming. Version mismatch, incorrect key, bla bla bla. Imagine all these questions that appear constantly looking for help on these topics. These are just the ones that didnt use the search button. And if you want to play with your 20 or so regulars and not see any new faces, continue with that type of attitude. Its not because you know how to do it and someone else doesnt that they are lazy. Its simply because from another perspective, you dont have to be or are expected to be, good at computers to be a good player. Make it easier? Dumb idea? go ahead genius, keep peoples lives difficult just because you know your sh$%. In your own intelligent words, i vote to "make it dumber". Only a dumb person would think that this would actually remove something from gameplay. If i missed something, im sure you could find some inspiring words for me. But i wouldnt expect much less considering this is supposed to be a friendly place full of helpful people like you all high and mighty.

Doesnt the PR community have public servers with teamplay, community, helpful people, and organization?

So long

!alive opinion.

Edited April 27, 2011 by pbishop

[fruity_rudy 16]

I don't understand why you start yelling. Sick, Xeno & Co. do awesome work, some ppl like dom, some not. ffs, calm down. The thread was about something else, and i understand that.

This game is different, this game gives you custom stuff, if you want it. I explained launching addons over and over again, we restarded missions, till all the newbies got acre, lingor and were able to launch it. Its all about WHO is playing.

I would suggest opening a beginners thread, with some server admins who are patient (like me and my buddy), and who wanna help new players who are interested in the mp-experience. I always like when new ppl join our server and ask for organized gameplay, teamspeak and are happy that an admin talks and explains, instead of yelling and !"wtf are you doing, nuub **")(((?UR$)§U)" and stuff like that. We, the community, should be happy, that this game is getting more popular and that people are interested.

I have like 15gb of addons, and i really appreciate the work of these addon guys. So Mr. Thread opener, this community is unique, not like other gaming communities. In here you need a helping hand if you're new. i can't imagine being alone on a server without talking somebody on teamspeak, 'cause this game is done for this purpose: playing together...

cheers

FR