official complaint to BIS

[4 IN 1 0]

thats quite heavy words i guess, but that what i am thinking too really, thx Suma

[ck-claw 1]

thanks suma ! as u seem to be most active and helpfull the best u can in here!

much appreciated!!

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Great to see a reply from you Suma.

Any chance that the work on the patches to be 'more open'? Maybe having a status quo page updated weekly at the biki telling us what you are working on?

I'm not asking for an entire essay here, of course - just a list. Cheers

[MidTower 0]

Of course.

All the tanks, trucks and cars look good from 50m. As soon they are more than 100m away the level of detail drops so drastically that sometimes you even can't recognize the vehicles without zooming in with the binocs or the ACOG/Aimpoint on the rifle.

Yes when you raise the resolution to 1280x1024 or even 1600x1280 it's better. But then the game is just unplayable.

Second example. Some of the wrecked trucks/cars after explosion look even worse as those in OFP. Absolutely no details.

You want examples of better looking addons in OFP than ArmA? There are hundreds! Just download FFUR 2006 2.5 and play it in OFP. Or look at the addons from BAS (which are already 3-4 years old!!! RHS, LSR units, CBT vehicles, DKMM, KingHomer, Inquisitor, ORCSoh man... I could list them for the next 2 hours.

More examples? Looks at the weapons from SJB, they looks a lot better than the ones in ArmA!

There are of course some improvements to OFP. Water and ground textures are a lot better than in (vanilla!! OFP. (If you take Berghoffs nature packs, the foliage trees don't look better in ArmA.

It seems to me that BIS didn't put in enough time to optimize the graphics to run smooth on average systems people have today.

Besides this, gameplay didn't change at all in comparison to OFP.

Look at the improvements SLX mod has done for old OFP.

Hopefully the mod community will brind ArmA to a better state than it is right now. But I would have expected a lot more improvements from BIS. They had 5 years time to work on it. And they are professionals. The mod community are amateurs and they're doing a better job in a lot of areas.

The weakest point is the sounds. Weapons sounds are bad. Sound are not toned as they should be. When a chopper moves away you shouldn't hear it on the same loundness if it would be 100 m away.

When you move away from the shore you instantly don't hear the waves anymore. No fade out on any sounds.

Lot of shouted messages from the AI end abrupt without ending the message. Player sometimes can't shout any message. The voices are changing during a message. So the fist spoken word is from a different voice the second word from a different and the third again from the first voice and so on....

Another bug: the voice loops sometimes. Shouting 20, 30 times officer, officer, officer, officer, officer....

Another bug: when the soldier which operats M2 dies the M2 has the old muzzle flash bug. Muzzle flash will stay on even the M2 is not fired.

Another bug: when disembarking a ship you go to the water on to the shore. You have to swim to the shore and risk to lose your weapons.

Another bug: sometimes you're in command of other soldiers but you don't see the icon on the bottom of the screen. Hence you can't give them any commands.

oh guys I'm tired of writing down all the bugs. They are too many!

As a fan and have purchased all of the OFP games, I have to agree with you. The game needs plenty of work. I just hope they recognize that and don't play dumb like EA has about BF2!

[dm 9]

lol DeadMeat, face it, you just repeat what is usual today. Not more. If you sell a functionality and you can't use it because it is not documented BY THE SUPPLIER the delivery is not complete.

You are right that it is USUAL to deliver no or bad documentation.

... ...

"More than enough documentation for 99.99999% of users."

Right if you just want to play. If you want create nice missions/islands/addons you are totally wrong.

Ähm the "Entertainment SW" is not in the contract that I have with Morphicon :-) So all what you connect with this is not valid here.

... ...

"so you are provided with documentation that is fitting for that price tag"

Again, you explain your opinion, I refer to a binding contract saying I can use a certain set for functionality. Since the usage of the functionality is not explained I ask to deliver that. That BI/Morphi did not calculated that in their pricing because they never intended to deliver that because they run on your mindset - their problem. I still want the doc.

If they would have offered a guide like Morhpicon added from MrMurray, but with more content and approved by BI, that would be acceptable. Even an additional fee would be acceptable.

But offering NO documentation for a sold feature is sick.

It is more than "usual" it is common practice to deliver this level of documentation for a product in this price band. It is also standard practice not to issue exhaustive documentation with entertainment software.

You are still looking at ArmA as a piece of "professional" software, which it isnt. You are still glossing over my point that "you get what you pay for", if you want to go all "contracty" on me, then where in the contract does it state that BI/Morphicon or any other publisher will provide documentation?

For the "home user" I will use 3ds max as an example: For a full, new, 3ds max 9 you pay $3,500 US. It is then provided with exhaustive documentation on how to use it. For ArmA you pay $50, and it is provided with documentation suitable for that price tag.

Sorry, it displays "£30" what was it actually?

The "£30" is meant to be a pound sign, the forums obviously doesnt like it atm.

"Your expectations are too wild." Right. If you compare with that whats unfortunately usual. But your mind is to small to see that it was a few years ago totally unusual to have a general 2 years warranty by law. You think to conservative.

If you knew anything about my personality, and my history here you would know that I am FAR from conservative.

I like to think that I'm a realist - and like I keep saying, if you want documentation, EXPECT to PAY for it.

[4 IN 1 0]

lol DeadMeat, face it, you just repeat what is usual today. Not more. If you sell a functionality and you can't use it because it is not documented BY THE SUPPLIER the delivery is not complete.

You are right that it is USUAL to deliver no or bad documentation.

... ...

"More than enough documentation for 99.99999% of users."

Right if you just want to play. If you want create nice missions/islands/addons you are totally wrong.

Ähm the "Entertainment SW" is not in the contract that I have with Morphicon :-) So all what you connect with this is not valid here.

... ...

"so you are provided with documentation that is fitting for that price tag"

Again, you explain your opinion, I refer to a binding contract saying I can use a certain set for functionality. Since the usage of the functionality is not explained I ask to deliver that. That BI/Morphi did not calculated that in their pricing because they never intended to deliver that because they run on your mindset - their problem. I still want the doc.

If they would have offered a guide like Morhpicon added from MrMurray, but with more content and approved by BI, that would be acceptable. Even an additional fee would be acceptable.

But offering NO documentation for a sold feature is sick.

It is more than "usual" it is common practice to deliver this level of documentation for a product in this price band. It is also standard practice not to issue exhaustive documentation with entertainment software.

You are still looking at ArmA as a piece of "professional" software, which it isnt. You are still glossing over my point that "you get what you pay for", if you want to go all "contracty" on me, then where in the contract does it state that BI/Morphicon or any other publisher will provide documentation?

For the "home user" I will use 3ds max as an example: For a full, new, 3ds max 9 you pay $3,500 US. It is then provided with exhaustive documentation on how to use it. For ArmA you pay $50, and it is provided with documentation suitable for that price tag.

Sorry, it displays "£30" what was it actually?

The "£30" is meant to be a pound sign, the forums obviously doesnt like it atm.

"Your expectations are too wild." Right. If you compare with that whats unfortunately usual. But your mind is to small to see that it was a few years ago totally unusual to have a general 2 years warranty by law. You think to conservative.

If you knew anything about my personality, and my history here you would know that I am FAR from conservative.

I like to think that I'm a realist - and like I keep saying, if you want documentation, EXPECT to PAY for it.

my shop currently using a FUJI frontier 350 mini photo lab, and that thing cost what? about $35000 when its all new, and what they came with is a bible like menu which sizes no larger then 2 yellow page (phonebook), thats what kind of documentation you get with the semi-porfessional product which cost "some money"

BTW i can tell damn hell that i could ID and tell the difference between an M1 and a T72 and a BMP from 700 meters away, with my crap machine even on low

[MehMan 0]

INNOCENT&CLUELESS you need to take a freaking chill pill. BIS has given us help and are listening to us. Documentation will follow. You need to wait. Even if the documentation won't come, you can still wait for somebody expirenced to write something up, or even give it a shot yourself. If you want to work with the mission editor you can also explore, check what does what, jeez, do you also need a manual for sex? Explore, test things, play around, and once you explore the possiblites of the editor, you might want to try yourself with scripting, and voila, BIS has presented us with all the commands in one place, the wiki, which is I believe more than enough to satisfy anybody. A bit of exploring and asking for help nicely can bring much greater success than saying that BIS should provide you with all the documentation from start and it is their fault that you cannot do a bit of exploring and testing.

[NoRailgunner 0]

again and again... INNOCENT&CLUELESS is walking to all forums of the world maybe universe? Telling about how weird BIS/Publishers are .... 'nuff said

The early release of ArmA is "unfortunate". Its obvious that all of these people are waiting for the big "Bugbuster-and-update-patch" !!!

[Luciano 0]

Well OFP CWC had 1.46 as its latest patch. The expansion shouldn't count.

OFP was pretty damn playable by patch 1.20. I played the campaign twice from start to finish with 1.20 with no problem (except a very minor one if I remember correctly mission 3) By 1.20 multiplayer was also pretty fixed, except minor things.

In terms of gameplay, little changed from 1.20 to 1.46 which was the final for OFP CWC.

1.20 WAS OFP's second patch.

Now if you look at ARMA, it already had 2 patches and they fixed almost nothing. So they have long way to go to make ARMA look like what OFP looked at 1.20.

Point is that it didn't take OFP 5 years to be what it was (like everybody here says). All it took was 2 patches.

Take ARMA patch 1.02 for example. All it changed was the helicopeter flight physics even though the plane flight dynamics were just as bad. Now it's argueable that the changes didn't fix much as they still don't handle right. And many agree that OFP 1.00 flight dynamics was much better than ARMA 1.03 (demo).

Anyway, at the end of the day it doesn't matter how many pacthes ARMA receives, but what they fix.

[MehMan 0]

Yeah, but as you can see these two patches were released fairly quickly.

[NeMeSiS 11]

1.20 WAS OFP's second patch.  

Now if you look at ARMA, it already had 2 patches and they fixed almost nothing.  So they have long way to go to make ARMA look like what OFP looked at 1.20.  

Its not the number of patches, its the time between the release of the game and the actual bugfixes (they can make several patches in a week, but every patch would only contain a few fixes instead of one big patch with alot of fixes)

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

@ Suma

lol Master himself is answering and I miss it cause I am in train home.

So I recognize "binding contract" are the words you react on. I have to remember that. From strict legal point we might have to shoot that out at court to find out who is right, but unfortunately you put Morphicon between us.

To make you understanding why I react like that: Since 2001 I wrote 13 e-mails with several issues in a nice way written to all official addys of BI - not a single one was answered. Then I tried to use this forum - and found this PR-GAU (GAU = größter anzunehmender Unfall, German expression to that what happened in Tschernobyl) Placebo, distributing placebo pills in masses. Is that what you MehMan got from Placebo and ask me to take too?

Also no way to move forward.

Then I tried to move over Morphicon when I recognized what I bought for 42€ for the download version and 65€ for the SE version (I bought 2 versions to set up to environments with both used copy protection systems).

I had something in mind with the size of Codemasters (not LIKE Codemasters) but after the CEO answered my e-mails which I would never expected I found out how tiny they are.

So I asked the CEO to pass a nice written letter I assembled in 30 minutes where I at least expect an answer. But somehow I get the feeling that this letter found a different use in a toilet in Morphicon or BI premises.

Now the hot topic documentation and Biki and what I could expect.

First of all the Wiki approach is the misleading opinion that the collected sum of world wide intelligence would concentrate to the absolute maximum intelligence possible. It is more like the Biki content reliability decreases with the amount of people able to drop content without the approval of the truth of thats what written: the developer. And it is a to cheap way out for BI.

""""In the area of modding documentation, I understand your view may be different, but we really do expect community will help us creating it, as this is really beyond the scope of standard entertainment product. I hope the fact we are running Wiki documentation and actively contributing to it, shows we care about the users who want to customize the game and develop for it, and also shows some progress has been made from the OFP times.

If you have any particular technical questions you need answer to, feel free to post them in this forum, and I hope you will see you will get answers, from other users, or from us directly, if needed.""""

Suma, that is the joke of the day.

How excellent your information flow regarding information regarding command/parameter documentation is shows following example where I got the first time in 5 years a reaction from BI.

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=57163

You answered quickly some part and then I was left alone with the rest and the thread was soon hijacked by guys telling me what I have to expect.

So imagine I would work on some WW2 addons (I do not! meanwhile I had to stop the work or fiddle endless hours to get things scripted while one of your developers have the proper explaination how to use those parameters.

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That is all you get!

I know there are a lot of young forum members telling me how wrong my demand is and happy to fiddle endless hours behind their computer to get an ejaculation once they tested out how it works instead of finding it after 5 minutes in a proper documentation. Sorry, life is to short for that.

So Suma all this "the community is important for us " steam is just an empty bubble except that you like us to pay your further developement in advance.

""""Still, I think I can (at least partly) understand your frustration and I can confirm we are working on a patch which should fix the issues most complained about by the users (and also adding some new features). We consider publishing patches to be a standard practice and we understand our customers expect us to do this, however from strictly legal point of view (which is what you are trying to promote here) there is no such duty on our side.

In some countries you may be entitled to refund if you are unsatisfied with the product and return it withing a given duration after purchase. If you are really very unsatisfied I fully understand if you decide not to buy any more games from us, or from the publisher in question - this is your right and nobody can force you otherwise.""""""

Good move Suma, I was right about my guesses why you choosen small, easy to handle Publishers in front of BI.

Suma, I guess you missed that CZ became a part of the EU. I know, there was once a misleading map at CNN showing CZ as Switzerland which is not part of the EU. But it is a fact and with that there are some EU rules regarding our issue. Relativley new is the right by law to give back a product that does not have the specified features - I guess there is no doubt here that V1.02 does not. But it is a may, not a must, I can also ask to fulfill the purchase order means I should get a SW that is usable.

Since I would hit only Morphicon and not BI by giving back the 2 games I decided to keep them, even if I could imagine that you would love to see me doing that to get rid of me.

"""""As for the concerns regarding "bad publishing, bad contracts, bad timing...", I will not really comment other than by saying such things are not easy, and they are much harder now than 5 years ago, as the gaming industry has changed a lot meanwhile.""""

Yea, I can imagine, but it was your decision to push the expectations high by careless announcements turning out as to ambitous. It is BI PR selling everywhere wet dreams about GAME2 content and features while wreacking the ArmA developement.

And the worst thing BI did: declaring GOLD status while it turns now out that this was simply never true. That proves that BI is cheating on purpose, not by mistake.

""""We are very glad to see some users share the vision with us to create a game which is in some aspects unique and exceptional, even if it is not perfect in every aspect.""""

Oh yeah, but maybe we have a different meaning what this means.

It was me buying 6 copies of OFP/OFP:R because a new, nice company needs to be supported the right way.

It's me paying server and bandwidth for mod/missionmakers.

It was me kicking players to the moon joining with faked game-IDs.

It was me buying 2 ArmA copies to be prepared for the testing of WGL/ACE mod for ArmA as well as for crCTI conversion.

So do not tell me between the lines that I do not bring my share into this.

And once more:

All that would not be here in this forum if you would setup and maintain working communication channels.

[Tankbuster 1733]

What really galls me is that OFP was in a poor state when it first came out and even now, in 1.96 is a little flakey in places.

Five years later on, BIS seemed to have learned nothing. Eastern Europe has been the public beta test of some software that is as bad now as OFP was in it's early days. That seems to be to be an insult to us, the user base.

As a product, Armed Assault is shockingly unreliable. If that had been a productivity application, the team would have probably been fired.

[wamingo 1]

"All that would not be here in this forum if you would setup and maintain working communication channels."

Since when do any developers have steady communication channels with communities... Sounds like a PR stunt - "Look at us, we talk to our community!", Rubbish. And what difference would it have made to the issues that arma has?

Why is there always some funny guy who threatens with lawsuits after game releases nowadays? Seen em on m2tw forum, oblivion, bf2142 and probably more. Go buy some fireworks until you get a dud and then take those bastards to court eh?

[NeMeSiS 11]

Five years later on,

Game was made in <1.5 years, we first heard about it on the E3 in 2005 and back then it was more or less a port of OFPE and they planned to trow some reworked VBS stuff in. (Or something like that, placebo posted it a while back)

Anyways, can someone enlighten me why INNOCENT&CLUELESS wants to sue BIS? I really dont follow his posts, is it the lack of documentation for the editor(s)? The bugs? Because he wants his money back and he chooses to contact BI instead of the shop?

Its quite strange, everyone always whines for BI not posting on this forum, and when they are finally here, people start biting them..

[Thunderbird 0]

What is the point of keeping such an attitude towards'em? how well would that change things?

I'm afraid this way is the worst to follow, because what has been done is done and all you can do now is to hope that things would get better with the next upcoming patches.

regards,

TB

[Mr_Tea 0]

Things will get better with the next patches.

Look what OFP was when it came out. Here in germany whe didn`t

get OFP in version 1.2 when it was released, and the bugs where hunted down with the patches.

It will be the same with Arma.

All i can agree with is that a little info about the status of the next Patch would be great.

I`m waiting on the 1.03 Patch too.

[Dallas 9]

Get to the point, instead of trying to amaze us with your boring profoundness. It's a waste of time and space.

[klavan 0]

This thread is so boooooring! If you don't like the game throw it away and go play something else or maybe increase your social activities (you know, there's a real word outside of this forum), what's the problem? ufff!

This thread should be closed.

Klavan

[volkov956 0]

- very bad performance even on normal settings

- very often no sounds, with Hardware Accelaration or EAX

on/off

- missions sometimes don't end

- level of detail of the units and vehicles are not sufficient

(the most of unofficial addons in OFP are a lot better)

1. I disagree My systems all run the game with most settings maxed flawlessy.

2.Have not run into that issue as of yet

3. I have had that problem hehe

4.Yes and No Outside Detail great but the loss of the interior modeling is a loss for the vehicles like tanksAnd thats

Computers with 6800 Ultra AGP, X850 AGP, 7950GT, 7950GX2

[karantan 0]

This thread is so boooooring!

No it's not, how you can say something like this, I'm very interested on the theme, I think such thread is a must...

If you don't like the game throw it away and go play something else or maybe increase your social activities (you know, there's a real word outside of this forum), what's the problem? ufff!

This thread should be closed.

Typical bitchin' of a fanboy. Just jokin', no hard feelings Klavan mate.

[bionic 10]

Five years later on,

Game was made in <1.5 years, we first heard about it on the E3 in 2005 and back then it was more or less a port of OFPE and they planned to trow some reworked VBS stuff in. (Or something like that, placebo posted it a while back)

Anyways, can someone enlighten me why INNOCENT&CLUELESS wants to sue BIS? I really dont follow his posts, is it the lack of documentation for the editor(s)? The bugs? Because he wants his money back and he chooses to contact BI instead of the shop?

Its quite strange, everyone always whines for BI not posting on this forum, and when they are finally here, people start biting them..

Don´t know what his point is.

He is also spamming the german forums with his BS.

On one hand he says life is to short but on the other hand he waste his time with writing such nonsense.

Quote[/b] ]Oh yeah, but maybe we have a different meaning what this means.

It was me buying 6 copies of OFP/OFP:R because a new, nice company needs to be supported the right way.

It's me paying server and bandwidth for mod/missionmakers.

It was me kicking players to the moon joining with faked game-IDs.

It was me buying 2 ArmA copies to be prepared for the testing of WGL/ACE mod for ArmA as well as for crCTI conversion.

So do not tell me between the lines that I do not bring my share into this.

What does this mean? Look at me i buyed 100 copies of your games without me you wouldn´´t exist <<<NO BRAIN!!! hahaha

Oh and don´t forget he ones made the german VW concern the lawsuit because his new car wasn´t working as expected so don´t make deals with him it could be the last in your life.

He seems to be a hobby lawyer or one of those hedge lawyers always funny to read such posts.

I think Suma already pinned his name on the wall and is playing Dart on it.(hope so)

Sorry for my Post but i really don´t understand it because i always enjoy to play ArmA. And no iam not saying there are no bugs etc... but we always have alot of fun in MP. Who cares about bug tracking if Suma says most of them will be fixed with 505 Release and there will be new features iam happy with it.

I am in first place Gamer and it is not my job to tell the Dev´s how they have to do their job.

It is one thing to give a helping hand to them but to tell someone one you have to do this and that is just....

Some of you should think about that plus you also could live in the 505 Release Region so you would still wait for your game.

I am happy that i can play it since german release sure there are bugs at the moment but which game hasn´t. Just have a look at EA and Battlefield they release one Patch when they notice they don´t get rid of the bugs they simply sell a new addon to cover it. The actual BF is BF2142 but they still have to fix the same probs since BF1942...

With this last words

[froggyluv 2130]

It was me buying 6 copies of OFP/OFP:R because a new, nice company needs to be supported the right way.

It's me paying server and bandwidth for mod/missionmakers.

It was me kicking players to the moon joining with faked game-IDs.

It was me buying 2 ArmA copies to be prepared for the testing of WGL/ACE mod for ArmA as well as for crCTI conversion.

So do not tell me between the lines that I do not bring my share into this.

.

Wow!

You've certainly done so much

Of all the revolutions this world's endured, this is the most important-est. To Arms!!!, down with BIS

Just a croutan in the salad bowl of life...  

[Scrub 0]

This trolling is going nowhere but hell.  Is there enough truth in what I&C is saying to keep his destructive attitude around spamming the topic?  Quite possibly over the line, but I personally can't stand this arse with a thorn in his side acting like BIS hacked him in a dark alley with a machette.  Get some perspective, at least beyond this games environs.  

Need to leave to keep from detailing how clueless he really is.  And nowhere near innocent.

[BraTTy 0]

Quote[/b] ]Balschoiw..you should be ashamed wearing that VIP tag!

And that is why ?

Is this some kind of "either with us or against us" nonsense ?

So everyone who actually spaks out of what he thinks about the Arma release and the the BIS info policy is only acceptable as long as he sings along the choir of praisers ?

Just that you are a respected member of the community reasons.

People listen to what you say

The way your pointing out uninstalling the game and such

Strong arming your views,lol

Not that we don't speak our minds here

On to topic:

I come to hear the latest on the game and I see a bunch of whining and putting the programmers and game down

Its hyped complaining because I just don't see the game that bad.

Its ok to point out defects ,just don't be so rude people