walker 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Hi all There is already an official complaints thread, people need to use the search function and use that thread. To the modies I suggest the thread is merged with the official complaints thread. Let us keep things organised. Kind Regards Walker So reported to the modies Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeMeSiS 11 Posted January 30, 2007 About BI not responding to our complaints: They do, however they arent magicians and they cannot promise that it will be fixed, however we can see where their priorities are, they just dont post it on these forums. A priority system for the wishlist would be nice aswell, but some wishes are quite ridiculous... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0 Posted January 30, 2007 @ Thunderbird: HA! catched you! Another believer! You see a lot of odd things and the conclusion is: Keep in mind that patience is a virtue, let them get a step further and help them instead of throwing rocks on them, basing myself on what I have seen so far, I'm sure they know what they do. If you would see me trying to do something and I totally fuck it up, would you come to the point that I know what to do? Surly not. But with BI it is even worst. They push away helping hands with the comment they know what they do, I just have to wait. Sorry, each one of the EUROs that I payed was ok, not a single one proved to be false or buggy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0 Posted January 30, 2007 lol ofpforum! You stepped into the BI trap called buglist! The one where reports sudenly disappear or modified. And with a new patch you have to build up the complete shit again and do regression testing again for almost everything if it might be gone. There were several serious offers to BI using this https://wgl.bofh.at/wgldev/trac/report/1 or this http://www.boeckler.org/mantis-1.0.6/view_all_bug_page.php Response: whe know how to deal, do not tell us how to do our job. That is why I can not speak in a nice way with and about BI anymore. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whisper 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Response: whe know how to deal, do not tell us how to do our job. link plz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wamingo 1 Posted January 30, 2007 I think some moderator said "leave it to us" about their advertising campaign... don't quote me on that though. But you're overreacting. It has just been over 3 months. It took over 3 months for billion dollar company blizzard to get their game to europe. A small penniless company like BIS will need time for sure. The whole wiki thing should be mastered by someone. I know it goes against the idea that everyone can edit but let's face it, it doesn't work too well in all cases. IMHO bugs should be reported here on the forum in a single thread and then someone chosen compiles them on wiki or whatever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sickboy 13 Posted January 30, 2007 ... hmmm a bug list is supposed to end up in a bugtracker system, but it's very possible that they use that already internally (usually public bugtrackers are used for open source products afaik )... I think the wiki is doing it's job very well, if now only the communtiy would really use this wiki properly... I give you an example.... there are many many questions on these forums which are already answered in the wiki.... But people just keep answering ppl in the forums, instead of linking them to the wiki.... This way... you never reach the full potential of what a wiki can do for you Also ... if those forum posts are moved into the wiki by a pro-active bunch, or even by the member with the question or the one with the answer... it would even more centralize the answers and expand the knowledgebase Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0 Posted January 30, 2007 @ wisper There is no direct link, just a few threads where trackers and their usage was discussed and finally dropped by the Biki admins with "it is as it is". I assume those guys speaking in the name of BI, if not, it proves once more that BI doesn`t have the TT management and their managers under control. I had some mail and phone conversation with Morphicon which ended with "good idea" but that`s it. So even Morphi does not have the balls to decide that from now on such a tool is the one to use at the so called "official page" here: http://www.forum.german-gamers-club.eu/forumdisplay.php?f=194/ and telling BI that they have a queue there managed by Morphicon employees where they should react on. So far to the support. Ask boecko about his experience with BI regarding this, he can tell you lot more... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricM 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Reading all that thread, I wonder how I played in MP all week-end with very nice coop missions on various servers... I had a fluid framerate at medium settings on a Geforce 6600GT and a Athlon 2000+ !!! Granted : - It crashed on me a couple of times - I never played on server with more than 30 people. I still had fun like I had not in a long time. I think many people are clearly overreacting here. It may not be as good as advertised or as they thought it would be, but still alot of fun and quite unique on its segment. On top of that, unless you're German, Czech or Polish you're not even supposed to have it yet, so why use the "rushed" argument when it's not even available in your country... Wait for 15 days and then you'll see if the number of bugs is still above-average, on par, below average. Then we'll all be able to moan and bitch. Being the only game of its kind at the moment, it can clearly boast being the best... Breath, Relax and have fun with what works (a lot of things) instead o focusing on what's not perfect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whisper 0 Posted January 30, 2007 I assume they simply have no time in setting it up, and tbh no company would (and should) let such thing be done by non-contracted 3rd party. Once more, I think it's their size (and current workload, seeing the state of the soft) issue kicking in. They don't have time, if they want to have said issue sorted in the 1st hand. As for myself I don't have had yet trouble with the bug tracker, I check it rather often, to see if somethign I've spotted is missing, mainly. BI answers with patches, that's the only meaningfull way they can do it (and have always done in the past), and I judge by that. Ie there is still plenty of work left, but now it's at least playable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Ha! Another Believer, now Eric. How do you know that a lot will be fixed in a few days? Do you have access to BI SW developement tracking tools? You had a chat with Marek? Or do you express just your hope? I Also played a few times ArmA for testing, after downgrading it to lowest video settings it was also fluid. That is not the point. The sudden crashes and the problems synchronizing server and client jeopardizes the attempt to play heavy scripted maps. My record in CTI duration was 9,5 hours, I expect that OFP 1.5 called ArmA can do that too, otherwise they can remove the JIP feature because it lost its sense then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wamingo 1 Posted January 30, 2007 Sickboy, the wiki fails because people won't use it. That, and the issues can't get debated and weighed through the wiki like they could on this forum. Refering people to the wiki without someone in control is like having a page purely for spam. That's my 2 cents on the subject anyway. Back to topic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrub 0 Posted January 30, 2007 This functionless, morale destroying, aimless thread is still open why? Your opinion is made, if you dislike ArmA so much please leave to find greener pastures. Let those of us who love it continue. May I humbly request a lock of this dark hole? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0 Posted January 30, 2007 @wisper: lt was all about a TT-Tool in Community hands were BI gets just a queue means AFTER serious community members checked/translated/correected the TTs and attached TTs to existing TTs if they have the same root cause. All BI would have to do is: - acceptor reject the TT (accept means it might be imported into their hopefully existing internal TT-Tool) - adding a forecast for fix (e.g. 1.05/1.06/unknown/future engine) - setting the TT to "fixed" once it is fixed together with the patch version that will contain the fix To the Biki list: There you can not discuss a ticket, each attempt would fuck up the complete list, in a TT tools a BI developer could set a TT to "more info required" and it would alert the creator to give more details. But hey, BI guys did not left the tree in terms of TT management Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0 Posted January 30, 2007 @scrub: Who told you you must read this? Are you the one telling what can we say here and what not? He? You have a little censor attitude? Goto White Russia and feel happy, there they will like you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Planck 1 Posted January 30, 2007 Oh dear, I must say I'm surprised to see this rather pointless excuse for a topic still open. Recommend closure ASAP. But then it seems to give some a purpose in life....including me apparently. Planck Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeMeSiS 11 Posted January 30, 2007 Ha! Another Believer, now Eric. Could you calm down? You act like BIS is the devil himself Quote[/b] ]Sickboy, the wiki fails because people won't use it. That, and the issues can't get debated and weighed through the wiki like they could on this forum. Refering people to the wiki without someone in control is like having a page purely for spam.That's my 2 cents on the subject anyway. Back to topic. Bugs could/should be discussed here (the ultimate 'priority' decision lies with BI, and in the end they are the ones who made the game and know how everything works and can guesstimate whats doable in a certain amount of time), IMO the wiki is a good idea (and an infinite amount better compared to the system used by other developers: none (AFAIK)), its not perfect but it does the job, as long as people keep using it (properly). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hoz 0 Posted January 30, 2007 Merged the How BI dropped the ball with the official complaints thread, which I should of done yesterday. The wiki bug/wish list is being reviewed by BI regularly and hopefully those who contributed will see their bugs fixed. hoz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dm 9 Posted January 30, 2007 That you think I do not have the right to get a proper documentation of a SW shows that you have a total sick mindset. If you say it is usual to deliver SW without doc I agree, but not that it is correct. A product is HW+SW+Documentation. Here no HW, but if doc is missing the delivery is not complete because I can not use the SW funtionality 100%.If you have lower expectations - your problem, I want to have what I payed for. Errr, no? That you think YOU have the "right" to "proper" documentation for a £30 piece of software (a Game infact) prooves you have a "sick mindset". ArmA comes with a user manual which tells you how to install and play the game. More than enough documentation for 99.99999% of users. Software with better documentation is rarely available for less than a few £100. Which IS the way it works - you want your bible sized documentation, you pay for it. You have paid for a license to use entertainment software, not some high-level tech software which requires qualified engineers to maintain. Therefore you HAVE recieved what you paid £30 for. Your expectations are too wild. If you think you'd EVER get "proper" documentation (more than an instruction manual) with entertainment software like games, then you are living in fairy land. Then they claimed that I can edit extensivly missions and addons.Now they are obliged to tell me how. Buy a car for 63.000€, if there is no manual for Navi, Radio, whatever you don`t need to pay the full price cause you can`t use it. Yes, they did. I would also agree that it would be nice for some official tutorials and documentation on how to do these tasks. However, your example just goes to damage your own arguement. "Professional" software, with so called "proper" documentation costs £100's if not £1000's (for single user licenses) and all the way up to 100's of 1000's for large site licenses. You have paid ~£30 for ArmA, so you are provided with documentation that is fitting for that price tag. A little bit of digging on the vbs websites, and you will see that BIA is providing exactly what you want (so called "proper" documentation) and the software is priced accordingly for that. And just like the "oh noes we need VBS2 functionality in ArmA" whines, NO it isnt just as simple as "handing it out to the ArmA players" since we have NOT paid for it. But with BI it is even worst. They push away helping hands with the comment they know what they do, I just have to wait. And There were several serious offers to BI using thishttps://wgl.bofh.at/wgldev/trac/report/1 This is simply WONDERFUL. Here is more "we know better than BI" mentality. Sure, you might be an IT professional, sure you might know a few fanciful bits of software to use for bug tracking or whatnot. But I garentee that you do NOT know how BI works internally. I would imagine that what we see publically only scratches the surface of BI's tools and procedures, and internally they have procedures in place for dealing with these issues. The fact that we peons have access to the internet and the forum (which BI pays for, so you can't say that they don't care) on which to vent our frustrations/anger/angst does NOT mean that BI must read and reply to all of it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0 Posted January 30, 2007 lol DeadMeat, face it, you just repeat what is usual today. Not more. If you sell a functionality and you can't use it because it is not documented BY THE SUPPLIER the delivery is not complete. You are right that it is USUAL to deliver no or bad documentation. Sorry, it displays "£30" what was it actually? "More than enough documentation for 99.99999% of users." Right if you just want to play. If you want create nice missions/islands/addons you are totally wrong. Ähm the "Entertainment SW" is not in the contract that I have with Morphicon :-) So all what you connect with this is not valid here. "Your expectations are too wild." Right. If you compare with that whats unfortunately usual. But your mind is to small to see that it was a few years ago totally unusual to have a general 2 years warranty by law. You think to conservative. "so you are provided with documentation that is fitting for that price tag" Again, you explain your opinion, I refer to a binding contract saying I can use a certain set for functionality. Since the usage of the functionality is not explained I ask to deliver that. That BI/Morphi did not calculated that in their pricing because they never intended to deliver that because they run on your mindset - their problem. I still want the doc. If they would have offered a guide like Morhpicon added from MrMurray, but with more content and approved by BI, that would be acceptable. Even an additional fee would be acceptable. But offering NO documentation for a sold feature is sick. ""we know better than BI" No, I don't, I just judge the output and what's visible from outside. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeMeSiS 11 Posted January 30, 2007 Ok i totally lost it here, what documentation? For the mission editor/addon tools? For the game? I saw some comparison to a car manual, but in that case you expect a car manual describe how to add a fifth wheel (addon) to your car? (the game) We have the Biki, which has more information concerning modding compared to other games (except those 1 or 2 other games...), and we also have this forum with alot of questions already answered (search functions) and alot of experienced people who can help other people.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whisper 0 Posted January 30, 2007 ROOFLE at this whole documentation outcry. Just Roofles Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
suma 8 Posted January 30, 2007 Again, you explain your opinion, I refer to a binding contract saying I can use a certain set for functionality. Since the usage of the functionality is not explained I ask to deliver that. It is hard for me to understand what angry comments like the one I quoted are supposed to bring, other than perhaps letting some steam off and cooling emotions by ventilating them. I am not quite sure what "binding contract" are you referring to. I am checking the license agreement and what I see is it (as usual for software entertainment products) specifically denies any guarantee regarding functionality and suitability for any particular purpose. Still, I think I can (at least partly) understand your frustration and I can confirm we are working on a patch which should fix the issues most complained about by the users (and also adding some new features). We consider publishing patches to be a standard practice and we understand our customers expect us to do this, however from strictly legal point of view (which is what you are trying to promote here) there is no such duty on our side. In some countries you may be entitled to refund if you are unsatisfied with the product and return it withing a given duration after purchase. If you are really very unsatisfied I fully understand if you decide not to buy any more games from us, or from the publisher in question - this is your right and nobody can force you otherwise. In the area of modding documentation, I understand your view may be different, but we really do expect community will help us creating it, as this is really beyond the scope of standard entertainment product. I hope the fact we are running Wiki documentation and actively contributing to it, shows we care about the users who want to customize the game and develop for it, and also shows some progress has been made from the OFP times. If you have any particular technical questions you need answer to, feel free to post them in this forum, and I hope you will see you will get answers, from other users, or from us directly, if needed. As for the concerns regarding "bad publishing, bad contracts, bad timing...", I will not really comment other than by saying such things are not easy, and they are much harder now than 5 years ago, as the gaming industry has changed a lot meanwhile. We are very glad to see some users share the vision with us to create a game which is in some aspects unique and exceptional, even if it is not perfect in every aspect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Metal Heart 0 Posted January 30, 2007 *what he said* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dallas 9 Posted January 30, 2007 Merged the How BI dropped the ball with the official complaints thread, which I should of done yesterday.The wiki bug/wish list is being reviewed by BI regularly and hopefully those who contributed will see their bugs fixed. hoz Thanks for the merge, it's much easier to stay away from these tempting rant baits, when they are contained to one. And Suma thanks for the reply. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites