official complaint to BIS

[shinRaiden 0]

This trolling is going nowhere but hell. Is there enough truth in what I&C is saying to keep his destructive attitude around spamming the topic? Quite possibly over the line, but I personally can't stand this arse with a thorn in his side acting like BIS hacked him in a dark alley with a machette. Get some perspective, at least beyond this games environs.

Need to leave to keep from detailing how clueless he really is. And nowhere near innocent.

Here-here. Everything that could have been said regarding technical issues has already been said. Everything that could be whined and complained about has already been done. Further continuance of this toxic crap is devisive, demeaning, and destructive to the poster, and the readers.

If you hate yourself and the world so much that you insist we grovvle to your insatiable complaints, turn off your computer, donate it to charity or to someone that cares, and go do something outside. Dig holes for all I care. Where's our OFP Mom when we need her, Avon, it's past time for you to dig out your paddling board.

[max power 21]

Hear hear.

[CanadianTerror 0]

EDIT: NM not worth entering this again.

[Powerslide 0]

As for the concerns regarding "bad publishing, bad contracts, bad timing...", I will not really comment other than by saying such things are not easy, and they are much harder now than 5 years ago, as the gaming industry has changed a lot meanwhile.

Suma is being honest here, once again I never intended to slam the devs. However I will say this, sometimes we have to "bite the bullet" for the collective good and long term return on our work, it's smart business.

Get the game working, as you should have prior to the European beta test (release), market it heavily in North America, as truly it's tailored to that market, seek distribution on at any cost (believe me Suma the pitfalls and fear of "less" will be easily compensated for, I highly recommend Steam distribution) and release worldwide.

The concept of AA is extremely ambitious, as was the concept of OFP, and far exceeds any FPS on the market today. With good marketing and distribution this game will be a smash with the genre is it tailored for.

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

hmmm, I do not know why I get answers from others then Suma when those guys:

1.) think this thread is pointless

2.) I am an idiot

3.) do not agree with my arguments

So to avoid this exchange of odd words (yep, I am guilty) for the future I created a thread where everyone can sing his laudatory song.

So to just to comment some of the answers after my previous:

@ klavan: you are wrong here, look at the title of this thread, yours is here:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=57558

@wamingo:

Quote[/b] ]Since when do any developers have steady communication channels with communities... Sounds like a PR stunt - "Look at us, we talk to our community!", Rubbish. And what difference would it have made to the issues that arma has?

Why is there always some funny guy who threatens with lawsuits after game releases nowadays? Seen em on m2tw forum, oblivion, bf2142 and probably more. Go buy some fireworks until you get a dud and then take those bastards to court eh?

I thought I expressed that I still hesitate to do that since I see the problems with BI more like between a long married couple: we have problems after 5 years sunshine, but I hesitate to divorce after the first trouble. We exchanged just the juristic point of view.

@ thunderbird84:

Quote[/b] ]I'm afraid this way is the worst to follow, because what has been done is done and all you can do now is to hope that things would get better with the next upcoming patches.

your church is here:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=57558

Express here that after 2 patches fixing not a lot everything will be better with next patch to. Btw I hope too.

@bionic:

Quote[/b] ]What does this mean? Look at me i buyed 100 copies of your games without me you wouldn´´t exist <<<NO BRAIN!!! hahaha

No, just that I delivered my share.

Quote[/b] ]Oh and don´t forget he ones made the german VW concern the lawsuit because his new car wasn´t working as expected so don´t make deals with him it could be the last in your life.

He seems to be a hobby lawyer or one of those hedge lawyers always funny to read such posts.

It just means that I try to get what I am paid for, not more. BTW I still run a T5 Bus leased from the same dealer later. They also had problems initially but they fix it now and brought a replacement car to my home without moaning whenever necessary.

Quote[/b] ]Who cares about bug tracking if Suma says most of them will be fixed with 505 Release and there will be new features iam happy with it.

You know now where your church is. I am not a believer. I rather judge the experience of the last 2 patches.

Quote[/b] ]Some of you should think about that plus you also could live in the 505 Release Region so you would still wait for your game.

Hugh? You tell me I should feel lucky that I payed for a buggy pre-demo and hence shut up?

lol

Quote[/b] ]I am happy that i can play it since german release sure there are bugs at the moment but which game hasn´t. Just have a look at EA and Battlefield they release one Patch when they notice they don´t get rid of the bugs they simply sell a new addon to cover it. The actual BF is BF2142 but they still have to fix the same probs since BF1942...

Comparing something odd with something that is even worst is not a driver to improve something. I rather set something better as target.

@scrub:

Quote[/b] ]but I personally can't stand this arse with a thorn in his side acting like BIS hacked him in a dark alley with a machette. Get some perspective, at least beyond this games environs.

Need to leave to keep from detailing how clueless he really is. And nowhere near innocent

You do not need to read this, you know where your church is.

@shinRaiden: you have an example for what I can sped my cash :-) ?

you know, if you can`t stand it:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=57558

URGENT UPDATE:

Sorry, admin closed the church, but it was meant honestly to show the good things. It was not my fault that the first response ignored the purpose of the thread.

raedor, could you move kestrel7e7 reply to this thread and unlock the other thread?

Cheers I&C

Menschen mit einer neuen Idee gelten so lange als Spinner, bis sich die Sache durchgesetzt hat.

Mark Twain (1835-1910)

[max power 21]

I think I&C should sue. I think he should go out of pocket to get legal council and sue for 40 euros. No, now I demand it. I simply cannot believe he hasn't done this already. He now MUST sue. I expect him to have had a hired a lawyer and have had a consultation by tomorrow, preferably not a free consultation, because we all know that any lawyer worth talking to is expensive, and the rest are just charities to litigious imbeciles... not like I&C, though. He's a class act!

[Heatseeker 0]

Get the game working, as you should have prior to the European beta test (release), market it heavily in North America, as truly it's tailored to that market, seek distribution on at any cost (believe me Suma the pitfalls and fear of "less" will be easily compensated for, I highly recommend Steam distribution) and release worldwide.

The concept of AA is extremely ambitious, as was the concept of OFP, and far exceeds any FPS on the market today. With good marketing and distribution this game will be a smash with the genre is it tailored for.

Market it heavily in NA? .

I dont know what makes you think that this game was specifically tailored to such market, afaik OPF didnt even do that well over there, it was a major worldwide hit but i believe the sales figures over there were actually disapointing compared to EU's.

You can think BIS havent tried hard enough to publish Arma in NA but you are wrong, they actually atended several expos (including E3) out of their own pockets. Now it doesnt take a genius to figure how these things go (and problably went), most developers who sign with big labels become puppets nowadays, i guestimate the following:

a) Bad publishing deals/contracts.

The publisher offers a bad deal, becomes intrusive in the development of the game, publishes the game, gets a large % cut, owns everything BIS does for x amount of time, demands for another 3 games to be delivered in the next 1/5 years, etc.

Just to put this game on store shelves?

b) Publishers were not interested.

Publishers were not interested in publishing Arma? Maybe because PC sales figures are not what they used to be and OPF:E didnt do that well. Maybe because the game isnt dumb enough to appeall to the large croud of dumbass FPS gamers?

The alternative was to sign local distribution with smaller publishers and so they did but it seems like even this wasnt so easy.

Its easy to come to a forum posting that the game shouldnt have been released but once a deadline is set the publisher calls the shots, the publisher might be able to delay the release to allow the developer to improve the product (or not, OPF was delayed many times), in Armas case im positive BIS did the best they could with the time they were given.

I also like to believe that 505 decided to release in mid february (well after xmas) for several reasons and improving/optimising the game was one.

Now on to the good stuff... BIS have a great support history, editing tools, patches, free content etc. They dont just release and move on to the next game, those who have been around witnessed and know it.

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

@plaintiff1:

You know me very well. The consultation was done in December06. I costs me nothing since I am a typical German "Prozesshansel" and my lawyer told me that the max I could get is making Morphicon bankrupt. Since Morphicon shown more action then BI that is not my intention. The is covered by my insurance.

Going to court would not help to get just 2 things:

- a reliable documentation made by the supplier explaining all commands/parameters with value ranges....how to use....classes where applicable....

- a better way of tracing bugs

With the TT system I was proactive and boecko did much more then that, he was even setting up all you need ready to use.

So stop creating the impression I can just moan.

So again my suggestion to Suma/BI at least to try to use what boecko offered, there is no risk except it could improve things lol

Regarding the documentation I expect:

If I can have the game for 42€ how you come to the calculation it needs some 10.000€ for me to spend to enable BI to create the description I want to have? Go back to school and learn proper math. Lets assume that it would take a lot of hours to make up that doc out of BI raw own documentation (BI must have it or how they create missions, addons and islands?) it should not rise the price more then another 40€. And if you assume that only 10% are interested in such a doc and hence not willing to pay the extra fee, sell it seperately, put it can`t cost more then 100€ extra per sold doc to format and publish something existing.

100€ is ok for me, with the first 2 hours I save with that it payed back already th money.

And providing such a doc would avoid that someone buys a single seat VBS2 licence for 1500$ and publish the related doc (assuming that VBS2 content matches partly the ArmA content) in the internet for free. Ok, not avoiding this, but preventing that I have to use this.

Cheers

I&C

[sniper pilot 36]

....

Man your like the Micheal Moor of the BIS forums...

@ Suma

Thanks, I know that alot of companies wouldn't of said anything, that alone proves that we have a dedicated devloper company on our hands (But to those who have been around for a long time thats old news)

*Just an idea to float around, I think if we (the community) is a major part of this game, then it would be nice to see a DEV Diary , or somthing of the sort. The main problem i am seeing is that people are either:

A) Complaining about the release that happend poorly that has passed us and there really is no point in arguing as it has long passed us and is etched in stone. (We can't go back in time folks)

B) People claim they arn't seeing any progress in fixing the various flaws in the game ( I dont know what gives them the special right to a sit rep but since alot of people are demanding info, hell a DEV diary would be nice)

I dont think this thread is going anywhere, we need to stop arguing about who did wrong and such because like i said its OVER! What we need to discuss is how to fix it, and with a company like BIS, we can do wonders...

just my 2cents...

@ Heatseeker

Your totaly right, sorry I wrote some things you mentioned as I started to reply after I got fed up with reading the same replies over and over again a few pages down... Anywho we need to stress our points more because only a select few are talking reason, and sense

[klavan 0]

@ klavan: you are wrong here, look at the title of this thread, yours is here:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=57558

No man you are wrong. I don't have ArmA and sincerely I'm not sure i'm going to buy it after 505 release, since it's clear this game has lot of problems and I'm even less sure it worths the hundreds of € needed to upgrade my PC (or even to buy a new one).

I'm sad like many others for the current state of the game and just like many others I had higher expectations than what we probably get even after the bugfixes, but I relaized that spamming this forum of bitching and moaning doesn't solve any problem and neither help anyone.

That's why I consider this thread so boooooring.

@Karantan

No problem mate.

Klavan

[4 IN 1 0]

may i be a bit ot here, as it really started to look like those Re: Blendtec video post all over on youtube, which is notthing other then a bunch of bullcrap

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

@klavan:

oops, got you wrong partly sorry.

Since I started with "sorry", after reading what I wrote to DeadMeat and Sickboy like "total sick mindset", I would rather phrase it like that:

"You have a very traditional view in my opinion"

which should say the same but should not hurt you. Sorry.

can we concentrate on the 2 points I highlighted and a few others made before I stepped in?

Could Suma drop some words to my 2 points and what BI might undertake to improve something?

btw, if it really turns out that this thread is useless, cause nothing changes and 1.0x does not change much, there is one use case, someone in BI premises can print out the daily "best bullshit of I&C" put it into the restroom, read it - laugh about it - use it.

[NoRailgunner 0]

what the hell... This is a game not a car (or something else in that way). Its playable.

@ INNOCENT&CLUELESS:

- Do you really want a blueprint from the developers??

There are many games around without an "reliable documentation" and "explaining all commands/parameters with value ranges...." (read the contract)

Its good to see that you and others had made up their minds, thinking and working about "better way of tracing bugs"! The ultimate decision is made by BIS, anyway. (Think, there is not you on the top to preach whats wrong whats right. Think twice why you have failed in german forums.... )

------

there are a few days ... lets jump on sahrani and see what is possible and where can be more Wiki - Armed Assault

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

failed? Yes, you are right. After I understood that BI would never use that forum and Morphicon value add was just announcing patches and fixing HW and SW issues I asked the admin to lock my account to block myself from writing there.

And btw, I did not asked YOU, I asked Suma or BI in general.

[suma 8]

Could Suma drop some words to my 2 points and what BI might undertake to improve something?

In a topic like this, it is hard for me to guess which 2 points do you mean, as you accused us of failing at that many fronts and suggested that many things it is hard to see which one are you referring to now.

I will assume now you are talking about your last two points:

1) Selling documentation

While this might be possible, I am not convinced it would work commercially. There seems to be too little people willing to pay for a thing like this. Moreover, creating it would delay us from our primary goal, i.e. developing games. I think Wiki approach will prove itself more suitable, we will be adding to it more and more information gradually, and the fact other uses will contribute as well will help a lot. Take an example of command reference, which is based on a reference XML we have provided, however it is now much more accurate and more complete. I think you are grossly underestimating the amount of work needed to transfer the raw (or sometimes even informal) knowledge into a concise documentation product.

2) Bug tracking system

This is definitely possible, however it seems to me the Wiki bug list as it is now works well enough for the purpose. The Trac you are refering to may prove useful, if I see there is a useful information in it, I will give it a try, and we shall see what may come out of this.

In addition to that, we have our own internal system, which we do not feel like opening to public, because of organizational and security reasons, and moreover, publishers tend to have their own QA and their own bug tracking systems.

[sickboy 13]

...

Suma, Thank you very much for your reply, it is such replies that give a sign that BI does in fact read, consider and reply on issues or questions at hand

There are more questions that are raised and eagerly awaited answering, I have sent you and Maruk a PM concerning this yesterday.

Thanks again  

Now.. I would suggest to open a new Wiki page or add as supplement to an appropriate existing wiki which show the questions asked and returned replies from BIStudio, as this thread may or may not be read by everyone, and it will save the need to copy or reference to a thread with many posts, instead ppl can refer to the specific wiki page to find the answers they are looking for.

[froggyluv 2135]

I asked the admin to lock my account to block myself from writing there.

Now thats the best idea you've had so far. Please repeat said procedure in this venue.

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

Thx for the quick reply

My fault, should have written the last 2 points. And you are right, a forum is not the right place to discuss things like that because you loose very soon the overview. But as I explained before - it was the only one working for me. We can turn this into a conversation via Morris Hebecker / Morphicon or your direct PM if you like.

to 1.) Selling Documentation

I am sure it will since a lot of senior addon/island/mission makers having a well payed job and are short in time. So my average hourly rate sold to my customers is at least 65€/hour net.

So I can calculate easy how fast I get my return of investment assuming that I would use the saved time for my company or private life.

Of course it would consume resources once in significant and a little bit with each patch/upgrade. But imagine how many hours in the community wasted by searching for answers/tips/tricks and invested into the real development work of addons/islands/whatever.

And one thing you have to consider also: like with my request for parameters related to the turret I am not sure if I am the unlucky one asking for the single item that is just the only one which is not documented, I have to rise always a request to you. Takes also time on my side.

I mean the Biki could be the place to publish the content of the documentation to save expensive printing.

But I like to access a documentation with the final approval of the supplier because I can not look behind every community member how serious and carefully he tested what ever he is putting into Biki.

If you think I underestimate the effort to make that doc: I have to deal daily with documentation sets filling meters of cupboards down to suppliers having almost no documentation.

I was sometimes just using it, sometimes defining doc-set content for RFQs and checked the content afterwards, sometimes I was working on supplier side helping them to create/update their documentation set. But what I asking for here is usually called "Command Reference Manual" filling even for a complex thing like a Siemens UMTS MSC not even a A4 4cm-back folder together with an explanation of the parameters and their usage which equals to "functional description" of features.

2.) bug tracking system

trac was just an example as well as bugzilla.

After testing mantis suggested by boecko I found it perfect since it has a very telling and intuitive GUI. So I would vote for that what boecko was setting up and filled with and one-time Biki import.

I did not suggest to open your internal BTS to public, I suggested a parallel system operated/owned by BI OR

operated by Community/owned by BI OR

operated/owned by Community.

Then I suggest to have a manual or half automated bridge between those 2 BTS which is usual, most mobile operators operation 2-3 BTS in parallel for different purposes and different level of knowledge and ALSO operating gateways to BTSs of the suppliers. No rocket science.

There is no risk at your side, your Biki/buglsit admins would receive tailored tickets, crap already sorted out, duplications are mapped already, discussions/clarifications between developer and TTcreator or TTmanager and TTcreator about a single TT would be inside the ticket and not messing up the complete bug-tracking-list.

If you are interested in the ticket flow I have in mind, it is in the letter for BI that Mr. Hebecker promised to give it to BI. So if it really reached BI, you can rescue it from the restroom and have a quick look at it :-)

Cheers

I&C

[baddo 0]

Hi

Although I think this thread is in some parts quite amusing and even entertaining to a level where my stomach hurts from laughing so hard, I must say there are some very good points brought up.

1) Request for better documentation. This is as I recall one of the things I asked for in the past in some thread dedicated to OFP2/Game2 wishes and that wish of mine has not gone anywhere. Bohemia Interactive Studio could raise the quality of their products significantly just by documenting their work properly (I seriously doubt that is happening currently but I apologize if I am wrong) and giving a simplified documentation in an easy to print format along with the game on the DVD. That's an undeniable fact. Doing that could increase the cost to make the products in short-term but in long-term doing that would also improve the internal workings of BIS, thus reducing the cost to make future products and make it easier for BIS to get new workers up to speed (not depending on one or two programmers who know the game engine).

An important matter to discuss internally at BIS would be, what information really belongs into a publicly released documentation? Every possible parameter and possible values of the configuration files (config.cpp) exhaustively explained? If BIS chooses to give all that information then fine, but I think it is naive to demand to get that much public documentation from their side. The mission editor and the scripting language should have proper documentation on the DVD including a command reference and a how-to guide, because there is an in-game mission editor where that information is invaluable, and can be rightfully demanded by customers who buy the game and find the mission editor not by reverse engineering (like it is for config.cpp files) but by going through the in-game menus.

The Biki is mostly a good thing to have but I think there are some problems with such a system, like for example many people messing around in there and giving misleading/inaccurate/false information with practically no person in place who would or could observe and fix it all on a regular basis. Takes much of the reliability away, people will still be forced to do their own experiments to find out how things really work. Maybe that's just unavoidable.

As a counter-argument for a counter-argument of saying that it is not common for entertainment software developers or publishers to give better documentation with their products I say that someone has to show the light for the industry. Aiming for a better overall package through better documentation should not be avoided just because no one else is doing it.

2) Bug tracking system. Yes I think there could be a better system than the Biki to report bugs. At first when I heard that we could report bugs into the Biki I thought "Yuck! No way I'm going to touch that! It's just too messy and cumbersome!" In my honest opinion it would be best for Bohemia Interactive Studio to implement a proper public bug and wish reporting interface, and integrate that into their internal system somehow so that the people at BIS could with less trouble and hassle have a look at what people are saying about their products, without the need to go into any other place than their own internal bug tracking system.

Best Regards,

Baddo.

[Scrub 0]

Yes, please, lets waste more of the Devs time in bureaucratic BS instead of making their (and our) dream game better..  (thanks for the reply, Suma)

BTW: I vote for a blue back ground and blood red fonts with a BIS watermark on the new uber bugtracker database.  Also, lets wait 6 months as we get a bugtracker for that too!

Gimme a break.  The existing system collects, prioritizes, and updates the official position on user-found bugs.  It seems to function quite well.  Is it a BMW?  No.  But it's no Yugo either.

(this will sound familiar) You don't want to use it?  Then don't!  There are many others already posting and scowering Arma for bugs, so don't feel like it'll never get found.

These last few pages of complaints seem more a 'look at me, I'm important, bow to my will' issue than helping get the job done. My last donation to this topic..

[boecko 0]

2) Bug tracking system. Yes I think there could be a better system than the Biki to report bugs. At first when I heard that we could report bugs into the Biki I thought "Yuck! No way I'm going to touch that! It's just too messy and cumbersome!" In my honest opinion it would be best for Bohemia Interactive Studio to implement a proper public bug and wish reporting interface, and integrate that into their internal system somehow so that the people at BIS could with less trouble and hassle have a look at what people are saying about their products, without the need to go into any other place than their own internal bug tracking system.

You hit the nail on the head. I've the impression that i've asked the wrong people about the issue.

And btw.:

The thread is getting constructive!.. Don't stop.

@scrub

That's funny ...what is more buerocratic than that?

You should try to make a good bug report with Description, Severity, Steps to Reproduce and maybe Pictures in that, before making assumption about the ease of use.

Bye

Boecko

[Paco454 0]

Sickboy, the wiki fails because people won't use it. That, and the issues can't get debated and weighed through the wiki like they could on this forum. Refering people to the wiki without someone in control is like having a page purely for spam.

That's my 2 cents on the subject anyway. Back to topic.

I think a dedicated sticky, (with instructions and how to's) to the bug reporting wiki so forum users can see it might help getting people to use it more as they should. Also a list of known bugs reported so one can decide whether or not to post in wiki.

PACO454

[Scrub 0]

@boecko:

Just a simple response:

Try this one...

Much easier and catagorized.  Edit: deleted smartarse remark that wasn't as humorous as I origonally thought.  I have entered a full issue, 3 images and all from game and editor screen. (old buglist)

**** Answer to you below.. sorry it took so long to edit, I'm at work     ******

[boecko 0]

@boecko:

Just a simple response:

Try this one...

Much easier and catagorized.  Edit: deleted smartarse remark that wasn't as humorous as I origonally thought.  Also, my entry is gone.  Must have merged/deleted with existing entry.

I have entered a full issue, 3 images and all from game and editor screen. (gone!?!?! )

Thanx ... you made my point.

Maybe it was duplicated? You will never know, since you can't reference in the wiki in a sane way.

[whisper 0]

The question remains : Has BI enough manpower to do in parallel game improvement, debugging, patching, dedicated server developement (mainly Linux code), documentaion filling and bugtracker management?

I SERIOUSLY doubt it ( I keep repeating it, but the argument is ignored by the "know it all" crowd that intend to sue them for lack of documentation, because of course, they themselves do it 1000 times better everyday, which I also seriously doubt it).

Now, I'm really sorry for fellow mission makers/scripters/modders around, but my wild guess is that, if asking for priority amongst the above topics to their current playerbase, BI will see the "documentation" in the very last position of the "we need it now" topic of the month.

In other words, you're not yet to see a complete docu done by BI. Hence the Wiki, btw. They're just asking for manpower.