Lost the ArmA 3 hype

[lexx 1363]

Heh, no offense, but if you create missions since OFP days, you should be able to easily script most stuff that the A3 editor has in modules. :> Especially things like briefing and tasks are so simple, I'd rather write them quickly in script than click together various modules. I mean, it's like what... 3 or 4 lines at max?

[mathias_eichinger 64]

You have a point here - my dilemma is not having touched ArmA3 editing for more than a year, so I am forgetting the old ways without being knowledgeable in the new ways yet. But if you are right, "under the hood", the old script snipped way of editing should still work - so I'd rather be faster back in the game by examining my old stuff.

[Undeceived 392]

On 23.1.2017 at 8:43 PM, mathias_eichinger said:

But if you are right, "under the hood", the old script snipped way of editing should still work

 

It does, but some code pieces are obsolete and were replaced by new commands. But these really are only a few.
I myself still do a lot in "old-school-style", rather than using the editor possibilities.

 

But you know what... Just wait for Arma 4. :D With the Enforce engine and the new scripting language we will have to throw everything aboard, even though sqf might still be supported. But what will happen to our beloved .SQS???

On 22.1.2017 at 8:54 PM, mathias_eichinger said:

I am amazed how you spell out the difference between OFP and later iterations. This is that itch I feel towards all the ArmA's but I could just not point the finger on the root cause.

I couldn't either for years. :D Only now when I intensively played it after such a long time, suddenly it was clear. :)

 

But... (to return to the topic) losing the hype also happened in the OFP days. As many said, it's normal. And I always came back to the series.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

On 1/22/2017 at 11:20 AM, Undeceived said:

...

The setting (future) has no connection to me, the characters are not that elaborated and don't have this roughness, the sunsets aren't that red and powerful, the enemy is like "Who the hell are you??" or "What the fuck is the SLA?" (I was absolutely disappointed in Arma 1 - the SLA caused no emotions at all for me, thus I couldn't take them as a threat), and so on and so on. Now think about the SLA and then think about the actual Ukrainian conflict or the conflict in the southern Chinese sea - I am immediately emotionally hooked when thinking about it as it's something I know and it has caused emotions in me earlier already.

...

 

In my opinion, I would call all those as narrative failures. BIS "original" universes (excluding OFP, because as you say, it pulls heavily from the real life narrative which many already have predefined views on) have absolutely no reason for you to get attached to them in any way or to care in any way. Dramatic things happen for the momentary set piece value and that is it. They're not books or stories, they're amusement park rides. The stories end on cliffhangers that are not even acknowledged by the participants of those cliffhangers, the various "named bads" have absolutely no purpose to them except to have a name, and so on.

 

I don't buy that the setting automatically disqualifies connection. Arma 1, 2 and 3 have various levels of "authenthic setting", yet here we are, still applauding "Cold War gone hot on random islands nobody ever heard about" setup.
But then, for example, you pick up Mass Effect, and by the end of the line, you are extremely attached to the universe, the squad, the ship.

You pick up XCOM which does a piss poor job at storytelling, but it ends up creating narrative moments for your team where you actually feel bad for losing someone.

 

It really feels like Arma is content with being a sandbox platform, and everything else is a facade. On one hand, we kinda asked for it. I remember very well various topics in the past 15 years of people going: "We just need BI to be focused on the engine, and modders will make the content". What was on nobody's mind back then, especially during OFP times is how the standards would rise and how hobby mod making would become incredibly taxing.

 

 

[mathias_eichinger 64]

I still feel that hooking into a real world scenario is easier, because of most people's preconceptions of that historical or current era. But you are right, a good story can be told with any background. Looks like we should attend writer's classes..... ;)

[bonchie 39]

On 1/20/2017 at 9:09 AM, froggyluv said:

 

 Can you be more specific about what exactly bothers you about the AI? Im not sure BI really gets how many people depend on a solid AI experience as they seem to be staking their future on MP gameplay and I suspect that they think that the AI are good enough for Coop play.

 

Sure.
 

The AI needs to feel more natural when you encounter them. As they are now, they are smart in many ways as far as detection goes, but they don't take cover well, if at all. They don't use buildings well. They are far too accurate in some situations. They often don't react in rational ways (staying still under fire, going prone and just sitting there, etc.). They don't work together well.

 

It's not that they are bad, but the entire experience has gotten stale to me and it's very robotic. I know it's blasphemy to mention, but Dragon Rising's AI, even 8 years ago, had really good open world AI that many games could learn from. They'd take cover, they'd suppress, they'd move and bound with each other, they'd clear buildings, etc and they did so in a fluid, convincing way.

 

Arma3's AI has improved greatly from past iterations, but it feels like a dead end to me at this point. No matter what tweaks they make, it always ends up lacking. If the AI is ever going to massively improve, it'll probably have to be a totally new system.

 

[Rich_R 1087]

@bonchie Give an example of a title that has the AI reacting in way you like.

[chompster 29]

25 minutes ago, Rich_R said:

@bonchie Give an example of a title that has the AI reacting in way you like.

He.. literally did in that post..

 

The Ai is simply never going to feel natural for as long as they use the same set of animations that we, the players, use. They simply cannot make efficient use of the movement like players do(strafing, moving backward etc). They are always going to come over incredibly robotic.

[Rich_R 1087]

You're right...missed it :)

 

Apologies

[froggyluv 2136]

Ya know i went and grabbed a copy again off steam and the games not bad at all for its time if you take off your "Your not Bohemia glasses!" for a second. Arma showed off they can match and then beat their use of over bloom, sonic ambience, and light blue nite skies -BI beats them everywhere except *drumroll..... Ai. Simply put this AI is fun to play with. There is more chance for emergent behaviour such as manning an unmanned gun atop a jeep or running inside and taking up positions at a window or as the below shows -house clearing. They also quickly react to threats changing orientation on a dime if needed -none of the classic Arma up/down im now gonna face the ocean when a single soldier is shooting at me in the exact opposite direction -bunk.

 

BI has ltierally dropped the ball on AI as they seem to think the status quo is good enough cept a few config changes but refuse to give them actual behaviour. I blame upper management penny pinching and I hope Im wrong here -but a lack of creative spirit.

 

 

 

 

 

Funny ragdoll at the end is me breakdancing to AI that can clear a house.

[bad benson 1733]

i think i'll give it another shot too. turns out i even own the red river expansion. muste've gotten them on a sale. recently found out that there's mods to fix the horribly stylised lighting. and there's apparently some dynamic whole island missions and AI mods too. as superficial as it sounds but the main reasons i couldn't really get myself to play it so far, aside from getting i way out of its prime, was the weird colours. i hope there's some sound mods too.

 

with normal and full color palette it's actually pretty beautiful

 

 

i think this guy made both AI and lighing. not sure though. read the description for more info. i wish they would've skipped the name/brand stuff and kept working on it. looked like a real solid base for sequels.

[froggyluv 2136]

Wow Templar is still active there -he was the stalwart defender of CM's gem and would come to these forums to get absolutely slaughtered arguing how DR's AI is far superior to Arma's. I was one of those offenders, lol, good on him

 

These are recent also while CM shut the games servers down years ago -nice find Benson

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well the problem wasn't the game really, more the name in fact.

[domokun 515]

Actually this AI discussion has re-ignited my interest in this flaw GEM.

And that Island War 2017 mod might be catalyst that launches the rocket.

So does anyone know if:

a) that Island War mod is compatible with the coop campaign?

b) if any of the expansions support coop?

c) is coop still possible? i.e. without passing via codemasters MP servers?

[bad benson 1733]

i have seen some recent videos doing coop. not sure if that particular mission supports it.

 

what i like is that the guy also tweaked movement speeds and all kinds of other details. feeling like i'm stuck in the mud was also a reason i was put off by the game intially. we should make a PM thread and try to organise some coops so we don't have to spam this thread.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

23 hours ago, froggyluv said:

BI has ltierally dropped the ball on AI as they seem to think the status quo is good enough cept a few config changes but refuse to give them actual behaviour. I blame upper management penny pinching and I hope Im wrong here -but a lack of creative spirit.

 

All we need to know is that BI hasn't had an actual AI programmer on payroll in at least half a decade.

 

I suppose we can take bets whether they will bother to hire at least one for their next big title.

 

And to be fair, competent Game AI programmers are expensive, so BI should take an honest approach with the community and decide in the open whether they want to continue supporting CO-OP / PvE or stick to PvP.

[VanZant 48]

I have spare time, coffee ready, and want to play a couple of missions. I subscribe to some that seem long and interesting and one of them throws script errors, the other after 20 minutes and after loading a savegame my team members are missing. I close the game and watch some TV series. This happened 2 hours ago.

Not always is like so, but many more times than it should this is my experience as SP player. I can assure that with A2 playing user made content was a lot less painful.

 

Lost the hype?. No, I just want to play.

[dav 22]

Well losing the hype is only natural when words like splendid are used all the time and the engine runs really slow.


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[bad benson 1733]

to be fair on AI though. yes it has not been expanded. BUT, they finally fixed a lot of the issues and not it atleast works as intended for the most part. i have horrible memories from arma 2 coop with AI being totally useless. now they are atleast dangerous. so the devs who did that deserve some credit. but still totally agree it's the same old stuff just fixed up.

[dav 22]

to be fair on AI though. yes it has not been expanded. BUT, they finally fixed a lot of the issues and not it atleast works as intended for the most part. i have horrible memories from arma 2 coop with AI being totally useless. now they are atleast dangerous. so the devs who did that deserve some credit. but still totally agree it's the same old stuff just fixed up.

That's it nothing major gameplay wise and that's what gaming is all about, it's hard to immerse in a chuggy game world


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[Wiki 1558]

So, I'm back to editing - no interesting game for quite a long time now (at least, none that I'm interested in).

 

As said, I've already released a new mission and I'm currently working on another one.

 

But when I see the lack of feedback, I think I'll make my next work private - I'm tired of making stuff forungrateful people...

[lawndartleo 109]

Don't confuse a lack of feedback as ungratefulness.  I've played a lot of missions that simply weren't my style. There is nothing for me to say.  "Nice try but don't Like it" sounds pretty ungrateful.

[joostsidy 685]

Hey, Wiki, It's clear that feedback and sharing is important for you. Is it maybe an idea for you to create a mission 'on demand'? That you create a mission specifically for a group of people who you talk to on these forums. Then the interaction and feedback will probably increase. Just a thought!

[tinter 186]

Honestly, don't feel like I  have this problem. Got 7365 hours in Arma 3 so far (Fair amount spent alt+tabbed). I usually try to get ideas for making missions for this coop community I play with and I sometimes makes mods, working on different projects at times. I feel like making missions was once a bit of drag, but ever since the switch to the 3D editor, I feel like I can much better get a feel for my missions. When I first started out making missions, I was all about trying to do things in the editor, and as I gained more experience and learned more about scripting I switched to trying to do most things in .sqf. And now with the 3D editor I rely on scripts to do what I can't do in the editor, but otherwise try to do most of what I can in the 3D editor. Even placing units in the editor and caching them with functions, means I can much better get a feel for my mission and it makes it so much more enjoyable.

 

Sure there are times when I don't always want to, but it's always due to a lack of feel for the direction. My mission design philosophy is all about trying to make something I would want to play, usually this means trying to get a good atmosphere and experimenting with different settings. I'm very inspired by music and sometimes I get an idea just due to listening to a song that I feel is the soundtrack of my mission, even before I made it. This is what gives me ideas, which I then write down and I play around with them in the editor. Although to really make something out of them it requires me to get a feel for what the mission should be like, hopping in the arsenal and designing friendly and enemy units is the first step, but being able to fly around in the 3D editor, looking for a good area, placing enemy and fortifications as I like them, helps me better to get started and designing a mission flow.

 

This is probably a bit rambly, but I just feel with the advent of the 3D editor, this is the most inspired I've been in years of Arma 3 to make missions and it really helps keep me motivated. The biggest problem is of course putting in the work and elbow grease required to make the mission, but most importantly is to just keep at it and not get stuck when not sure of what to do.

 

Of course my experience is probably different compared to people who make SP missions. Being immersed in a mission is easier when playing with other players as it feels more real when there's a person next to you that you can talk with.

[teabagginpeople 398]

18 hours ago, wiki said:

So, I'm back to editing - no interesting game for quite a long time now (at least, none that I'm interested in).

 

As said, I've already released a new mission and I'm currently working on another one.

 

But when I see the lack of feedback, I think I'll make my next work private - I'm tired of making stuff forungrateful people...

Haha I downloaded one of your missions on steam the other day have yet to play. But I'll be sure and lay into you hard. :D you're welcome.