Weapon Resting & Deployment Feedback

[teabagginpeople 398]

Was not long ago I was playing one of the official BI co-op missions think escape. The bi pod was being a dick, having to expose myself constantly to move to re set it as it got stupidly nailed into an awkward position , or putting me under the ground in Tanoa when I set it on the pavements. Was going to report then thought to myself, no point, not a hope they messing with that now. just want to say cheers for doing this.

 

Had some time messing around with it. feels better than the current vanilla version. 

I am fully aware of the Cons. I have checked them myself. Overall I think the new version  is definitely the better of the two options even if it is left "as is", all things considered. 

 

 

[a_killer_wombat 120]

With this new system, the body stance and aiming movement (animation) of the player is now exactly the same when deployed compared to un-deployed. This means there are no differences in aiming limitatons when comparing deployed to un-deployed. The only difference is the pivot point of rotation, where the lower torso is used as the pivot point when un-deployed, while the bipod (or other part of the weapon when without bipod) is used as the pivot point when deployed.

 

This raises a consideration; if there are no limitations associated with deploying your weapon when prone, is there any reason or circumstance where a player should choose not to deploy his weapon when prone? If there is no reason or circumstance, will this not result in players feeling they have to constantly spam their deploy key every time they lay prone, even without bipod?

 

My suggestion to help solve this conundrum:

• Remove the ability for players to deploy their weapon when prone if they lack a bipod. (Players without a bipod can still deploy their weapon on rocks, low walls, window sills, etc. as usual)

[teabagginpeople 398]

29 minutes ago, a_killer_wombat said:

With this new system, the body stance and aiming movement (animation) of the player is now exactly the same when deployed compared to un-deployed. This means there are no differences in aiming limitatons when comparing deployed to un-deployed. The only difference is the pivot point of rotation, where the lower torso is used as the pivot point when un-deployed, while the bipod (or other part of the weapon when without bipod) is used as the pivot point when deployed.

 

This raises a consideration; if there are no limitations associated with deploying your weapon when prone, is there any reason or circumstance where a player should choose not to deploy his weapon when prone? If there is no reason or circumstance, will this not result in players feeling they have to constantly spam their deploy key every time they lay prone, even without bipod?

 

My suggestion to help solve this conundrum:

• Remove the ability for players to deploy their weapon when prone if they lack a bipod. (Players without a bipod can still deploy their weapon on rocks, low walls, window sills, etc. as usual)

the limitations are having no bi pod and deploying, does not provide the same stability as if you had a bi pod on or am I missing the point.

[lexx 1363]

It's kinda a valid point. If you are always spamming the deploy key when going down (because it has no real drawbacks), might as well have this become a default action and save the additional key press. :>

[a_killer_wombat 120]

10 minutes ago, teabagginpeople said:

the limitations are having no bi pod and deploying, does not provide the same stability as if you had a bi pod on or am I missing the point.

 

You've missed my point. Bipod or not, players gain an advantage in reduced sway and reduced recoil when they deploy their weapon. When deploying on a rock, wall, window sill, etc. there is an inherent limitation involved where the player is trading reduced freedom of aiming for increased shooting stability.

 

However, when prone with this new system, there is no trade off. You incur no limitation by deploying your weapon but still gain all the advantages. I'm arguing that this will likely result in players feeling they have to constantly spam their deploy key whenever they lay prone. 

[teabagginpeople 398]

7 minutes ago, lexx said:

It's kinda a valid point. If you are always spamming the deploy key when going down (because it has no real drawbacks), might as well have this become a default action and save the additional key press. :>

I see what you are saying, I would have thought a tactical reason.

 

That being the person who is prone and deployed(dug in) be it spammed or not, has a better chance to hit than someone say who is shock caught under fire just dropped to prone and returned fire. granted it is just an extra key press or spam but it is an extra tactical step/ thought requirement.

 

perhaps increase time for deployment? 

[a_killer_wombat 120]

21 minutes ago, lexx said:

It's kinda a valid point. If you are always spamming the deploy key when going down (because it has no real drawbacks), might as well have this become a default action and save the additional key press. :>

 

This would actually be a good solution. If a player has a bipod, anytime the player lays prone, the bipod should automatically deploy and stay deployed until the player exits prone. I would also suggest changing the pivot point (axis) of rotation when deployed so that it is exactly the same place as when un-deployed (lower torso rather than bipod).

[teabagginpeople 398]

7 minutes ago, a_killer_wombat said:

 

This would actually be a good solution. If a player has a bipod, anytime the player lays prone, the bipod should automatically deploy and stay deploy until the player exits prone.

wait does this not only further increase bi-pod advantages? then you have the whole  separate issue of now having to still have a key anyway for deploying on windows or ledges for obvious reasons not wanting automatic deployment walking past a window. 

 

there is a slight decrease in speed of movement when deployed turning compared to not deployed. perhaps just adjust how fast you can deploy or move when deployed.

[a_killer_wombat 120]

46 minutes ago, teabagginpeople said:

wait does this not only further increase bi-pod advantages? then you have the whole  separate issue of now having to still have a key anyway for deploying on windows or ledges for obvious reasons not wanting automatic deployment walking past a window. 

 

there is a slight decrease in speed of movement when deployed turning compared to not deployed. perhaps just adjust how fast you can deploy or move when deployed.

 

"wait does this not only further increase bi-pod advantages?"

^ I have no issue with the advantages a bipod brings. After all, in real life, a bipod is a tool for the specific purpose of increasing the stability of a weapon while in the prone shooting position. In Arma, it would make sense if the player would gain the stability advantages a bipod brings anytime he is in the prone stance.

 

"then you have the whole  separate issue of now having to still have a key anyway for deploying on windows or ledges for obvious reasons not wanting automatic deployment walking past a window."

^ Again, I think you misunderstand me. I have no issue with keeping a "deploy weapon" keybinding for the purpose of deploying your weapon on objects such as rocks, low walls, window sills, etc. I'm just arguing that it would be better if the bipod would automatically deploy whenever you enter the prone stance since it would save you from having to repeatedly press an additional key.

 

"there is a slight decrease in speed of movement when deployed turning compared to not deployed. perhaps just adjust how fast you can deploy or move when deployed."

^ I personally wouldn't want the aiming speed to be significantly reduced when deployed. In real life, whether your weapon has a bipod attached or not has no significant affect on how quickly you can re-adjust your point of aim while prone. Significantly increasing the amount of time it takes to deploy your weapon isn't the best solution either, from a gameplay or realism standpoint.

[x3kj 1247]

10 hours ago, a_killer_wombat said:

"wait does this not only further increase bi-pod advantages?"

^ I have no issue with the advantages a bipod brings. After all, in real life, a bipod is a tool for the specific purpose of increasing the stability of a weapon while in the prone shooting position. In Arma, it would make sense if the player would gain the stability advantages a bipod brings anytime he is in the prone stance.

Why would it make sense? It simply doesn't. You can only use bipods in the right situation, when the terrain permits. You cant use it all the time, especially not when firing high into the air. So why should Arma always give bipod bonus when in prone? Auto deployment is impractical. Bipods have movement limits and different rotation points than regular movement. Extend the limits where you get weapon resting bonus is a better compromise here.

 

I agree with @da12thMonkey

Downward firing is what is the problem of the bipod ingame. In prone, but also in the other stances. In many cases players are at a disadvantage when they are standing on a plateau that is higher than the enemy is at, since they cant use bipods. This is completely the opposite to real life. IRL enemy can't use bipods in prone or low stances on lower ground against enemies higher up. They always need an object to rest bipod on to be able to aim up. IRL, in prone and semi crouch to crouch there is always a way to fire over the edge of a mountain or plateau using bipods. (provided it is straight and not sloped downwards). You can kneel and deploy your weapon bipod on the ground to fire downwards at big negative angle IRL. In arma you are limited to prone deployment. 

Making firing upwards easier with bipod seems illogical. It should be the opposite direction that is "relaxed" in its limitations.

 

Advantages and disadvantages from terrain slopes and height difference needs to be considered in real battle and that should be mirrored as good as possible in Arma. Otherwise we might as well revise the game concepts... from King of the Hill to King of the Valley...

[lex__1 422]

6 hours ago, x3kj said:

Advantages and disadvantages from terrain slopes and height difference needs to be considered in real battle and that should be mirrored as good as possible in Arma. Otherwise we might as well revise the game concepts... from King of the Hill to King of the Valley...

In a real situation, the shooter has more opportunities to give a stable position to the rifle, and this is not only when using a bipod. Maybe Arma3 lacks the entire range of character body positions and methods of fixing a rifle, and this causes confusion, how can you fix the rifle and shoot from a low position with a high angle upwards?

Since the game does not provide another option, then yes, it looks strange, and only. This does not mean that there is no way to securely fix a rifle from a high angle in such conditions.

 

[dragon01 902]

A leg isn't going to be as good a support as a piece of solid ground. Also, there already is a "high prone" stance which, while less stable, would definitely be suited to firing at high targets from a low position. However, bipod or not, firing from low stances at elevated targets from an opposite slope is, IRL, a difficult task.

[Janez 530]

Can a limit be set for bipod to be max lets say 10 or 20cm from surface? Because that last pic looks ridiculous.

[POLPOX 778]

Nicely done BI! This is the best thing I've ever seen in the game.

 

Jokes aside, I still can't say which is better. The legacy deploying system is feels nice and has sexy butt but makes me frustrated sometimes.

 

Also, I found a major glitch and may break the game related to the deploying system. Ticket here: https://feedback.bistudio.com/T133095

[joostsidy 685]

I hope a balance can be found with the result of a little more opportunities to fire downward. I don't mind a little more of bipod hovering / weirdness but not too much please. IMO it would be a shame if bipod deployment becomes a kind of 'enchantment' to make your weapon fire better without a base in realistic visuals.

[nkenny 1057]

I dislike the recent changes in the development version. I get what BI are trying to accomplish and think that with a little refinement the system can be made better overall. In its current state there are problems.

 

1. My main concern is the lack of feedback in the prone position. @joostsidy writes above that it should be a shame if bipods become a type of 'enchantment'. The lack of feedback for entering bipod mode while prone, particularly with no bipod equipped, makes it just such a hidden accuracy enchantment. Adding an animation state to prone+bipod animations  (though retaining the new torso-pivot) would be necessary to retain immersion. 

 

2. Removing the ability to deploy weapons without a bipod while prone is a bad idea. To do so would disrupt the  consistency of that core weapon interactivity; weapons should always fundamentally handle the same.

 

3. The concern that deployment is an enchantment is an analysis that could equally apply to the weapon rested state. There is no interface element, beyond a subtle icon change. Personally I would prefer super-sticky deployment (with clearly indicated animation states) to inconspicuous accuracy increases. Player toggled deployment, even if floaty, is preferable to an indistinct and hidden rested state. 

 

4. Query: It seems to me that the weapon deployment for crouched/wall animations has changed? If so it feels smoother and an improvement on vanilla. 

 

-k 

[twisted 128]

wow, after a long time away I am so impressed to see the devs have looked at weapon resting and made it better than before. :)

 

of course, a few points.

 

1. if you can go around in circles prone while bipod is deployed then it needs to be MUCH slower as it is actually really a clunky thing to do.

 

2. Repositioning the bipod while turning prone should also ideally reset the bipod turn angle to now be in the new angle. So you have maybe 30-45 degrees supported position, then just after the rifle tilts to move the bipod  goes through a settling and then again provides a 30-45 degree of support.

 

3. if bipod feet are above the ground by a certain heights (within reason due to old engine) then the bipod advantages should be removed. So the feet are still out but no benefit comes of it.

 

4. be nice if a fix can be found for the biggest issue i have with bipods, that deploying them can actually take over your rifle and move your point of aim in game. Meaning that you no longer are even pointing at the thing you wished to deploy the bipod in order to try and increase your chances of hitting. happens on walls.

 

overall though, great to see this being worked on.

 

[xon2 102]

Hey guys, i am currently not on dev branch. I'd really appreciate if one of you could make a short showcase video of the new weapon resting system so others can get an idea whats it like compared to what we have had for the past couple of years. Since this seems to be a either or that will stick with us forever in all likelyhood, it'd be good to have a lot more voices give input.

[Ivanoff.N 61]

Well it is quite simple.

It is now possible to deploy from the sitting stance as shown on the last screenshot. It appears that the snapping point is now in the pelvis and not in the bipod.

IMHO the solution is - to limit vertically (if engine permits of course) the prone animation to what it was, so it does not raise too much and bipod is touching the ground.

And keep this sitting animation as is. This sitting animation is good because although bipod does not touch the ground, the body is positioned in a way that your hands become a bipod, resting on the knees. 

 

This could be your maximum elevation while prone used if you want to keep low profile:

Although bipod is not touching the ground like most it has extending legs, maybe these legs can snap to the ground and extend (like the mortar bipod does when you raise it) but it is not game breaking:

 

And this wouold be the one that can elevate to any height (If possible not to unfold bipod when in this one because as said above the supporting element is not the bipod, but the position of the body):

 

 

[xon2 102]

@Ivanoff.N   ''It appears that the snapping point is now in the pelvis and not in the bipod.''

 

Hrm...still struggle to grasp the difference to the current implementation. Do you say the bipod would never snap to the ground when lying prone or onto the top side of a rock or wall which you crouch behind and would be freely movable while the pelvis of my character would be snapped/locked to the ground?

[teabagginpeople 398]

7 hours ago, xon2 said:

@Ivanoff.N   ''It appears that the snapping point is now in the pelvis and not in the bipod.''

 

Hrm...still struggle to grasp the difference to the current implementation. Do you say the bipod would never snap to the ground when lying prone or onto the top side of a rock or wall which you crouch behind and would be freely movable while the pelvis of my character would be snapped/locked to the ground?

Don't have time to do vid. Soz

 

Basically it's a revision of the bi pod(excluding walls window ledges etc. Which stay as is). So when you go to ground or on a rock prone and use the bi pod it does not NAIL into the ground( this nailing causes some issues dragging you under the surface or  having to keep moving around, changing position so can finally get it set aimed on your target). For me dev branch version feels less clunky and irritable. It's not without issues or it would be more straightforward.

 

You can see the pics of issues OF THE NEW BI POD resulting from bi pod not being NAILED. Including higher unlikely angles and what not. 

 

Hope this helps you get it a bit more till someone posts a vid.

[Ivanoff.N 61]

11 hours ago, xon2 said:

@Ivanoff.N   ''It appears that the snapping point is now in the pelvis and not in the bipod.''

 

Hrm...still struggle to grasp the difference to the current implementation. Do you say the bipod would never snap to the ground when lying prone or onto the top side of a rock or wall which you crouch behind and would be freely movable while the pelvis of my character would be snapped/locked to the ground?

Here is the vid.

As you can see, no changes are made to the interaction with objects, just ground.

But you can deploy from any position where your pelvis touches the ground. At the same time bipod is unfolded, but it is not touching the ground. Also you can rotate with the same speed as if you are not deployed. Basicaly you loose recoil, but can still aim almost 70 degrees from prone position. IMO prone will be often used from the hills, but not in plain field because of tall grass. Everyone will most likely use the sitting position.

 

[mickeymen 324]

It is very likely that BIS wants to add additional problems to the game. New bipod-system?

 

As seems to me, today in a stable version, the bipods work well and stably and do not need to change anything!  Devs Please do not add new problems to the game!

If I could vote, I would vote against the any new system for bipods.

Increasing the firing angle when using bipods does not look realistic.

I'm sure if devs touch it, then this add new problems, which you will fix for a long time..

Why do you need it? Isn't it better to fix a real bad things?

 

@BIS better get really useful points for Arma3:

 

1) After five year game, finally configure a adequate hit-reactions and remove current idiotic animations when a bullet hits soldiers!
2) After five year game, finally customize your ragdol! If a soldier is killed while prone, In 50% cases the corpses fly into space!
3) In the event of a collision with other vehicles/fences/small obstacle, forbid to turn over the bottom for all tracked vehicles!
4) Adjust the correct body position for primary weapons collisions and  finally remove this ugliness out of the Arma3! 

5) After five year game make the inventory not work stably and well. In 50% of cases, it is impossible to raise a launcher or weapon from the ground, since this simply does not exist in the inventory menu!

 

Good to all

[stanhope 411]

44 minutes ago, mickeymen said:

1) After five year game, finally configure a adequate hit-reactions and remove current idiotic animations when a bullet hits soldiers!

 

2) After five year game, finally customize your ragdol! If a soldier is killed while prone, In 50% cases the corpses fly into space!
3) In the event of a collision with other vehicles/fences/small obstacle, forbid to turn over the bottom for all tracked vehicles!
4) Adjust the correct body position for primary weapons collisions and  finally remove this ugliness out of the Arma3! 

5) After five year game make the inventory not work stably and well. In 50% of cases, it is impossible to raise a launcher or weapon from the ground, since this simply does not exist in the inventory menu!

 

Good to all

More general feedback stuff wouldn't you agree?

 

If I remember correctly BI clearly said that they knew that the new bi-pod system wasn't perfect. And they were asking us for our opinion.  So instead of attacking them you could just have stated that you're not a fan. 

 

Here's what a BI dev said:

Quote

With this change the ground weapon deployment becomes much less restrictive. It also fixes several visual issues (levitating legs).
On the other it may remove the proper feeling of having a weapon deployed and pivoting around one fixed point. It also allows the player to aim quite high in the sky even while still deployed.

There are pros and cons. Lets see whether you'd prefer such behavior of ground weapon deployment despite the various other issues that come with it.

And:

Quote

 

Quote

Is this a pure engine change, or something with configs/model to adjust/tweak?

Sadly not, we're sorry. It's a pure engine change (simplification of gnd deployment) with not much premise of configurability at this point. From our side - the vertical aiming limits are quite an issue we're concerned about and would like it improved. But it may not happen - just so you know that we're - in a way - "offering" this change "as is".

 

[R3vo 2654]

Don't like the new weapon resting. It's just silly. Leave it like it was before if you cannot animate the bipod's  legs length.