Is the game dumbed down?

[-ghost-tf 12]

You're the one who brought up getting shot in the head & not dying? I replied that it's to do with head gear protection... But, You're right. You never die from head shots in Arma3. That head protection certainly is working as intended, and is dumbing the game down right?

No, the getting shot in the head part was a response to how you said that FAKs are a normal thing that everybody uses everyday IRL. I tried (and failed) to explain that you forget its not a simple cut in the finger we are trying to bandage ingame, its a 6.5mm bullet that you are pulling out of your shoulder in 3-4 seconds.

They dumbed the game down to absurd levels. Arma2 was completely realistic. There are no things in Arma3 that are infact more realistic than A2.

Sure, now that you realize the arma3 medical system has indeed been dumbed down over the arma2 system we might aswell start comparing other aspects of both games..

In Vanilla Arma2 I couldn't get shot in the body & healed back up by a medic several times for hours on end... sprinting across the battlefield afterwords. No those things never happened. :rolleyes:

Sigh.. Here is a comparisment of both medical systems AGAIN, so you can figure out yourself what has been dumbed down here.

Arma2:

Shot/injured in the legs = punishment (can only crawl)

Shot in the arm/hands = punishment (Bigger aiming shake) cannot be fixed by simply holding your breath/pressing right mouse button.

An unconcious/wounded state where you could get dragged/carried by a medic.

Dying from bleeding out.

Animation when the medic heals a person making both the medic and the wounded person combat ineffective for a few seconds.

Arma3:

Shot/injured in the legs = punishment (takes like 6 rounds last time I checked) Can only walk.

Shot in the arm/hands = Bigger aiming shake that can simply be ignored by holding right mouse button or going crouched/prone.

No unconcious/wounded state.

There is no bleeding out.

Magic handwave when a medic heals a person, while the wounded person can just run off shoot stuff while the medic is not even done doing his 3 sec handwave.

It doesn't surprise me that you don't know what I'm talking about. I don't think you & people in this thread know what dumbing down actually means.

Yeah you must be right, afterall, I'm the one ignoring the actual points and start focusing on little non related stuff or start comparing how realistic other aspects of both games are..

[David77 10]

Yeah you must be right, afterall, I'm the one ignoring the actual points and start focusing on little non related stuff or start comparing how realistic other aspects of both games are..

Totally. The changed & incomplete medical system dumbed the game down. It's not like we're in a thread called "Is the game dumbed down?" or anything right? You'll have to forgive me for sticking to the topic while debating weather or not the medical system dumbed the game down compared to Arma2s.

Edited September 18, 2013 by David77

[-ghost-tf 12]

Totally. The changed & incomplete medical system dumbed the game down. It's not like we're in a thread called "Is the game dumbed down?" or anything right? You'll have to forgive me for sticking to the topic while debating weather or not the medical system dumbed the game down compared to Arma2s.

The thing is I never said that the whole game is dumbed down, I only said the arma3 med system is dumbed down compared to A2's med system. But doesnt matter, since you realized that you are blindly defending something that cannot be defended, you may continue defending other aspects of arma3 where you might actually have a point, anyway I'm done here.

[maddogx 13]

Put simply, "dumbing down" means to intentionally reduce the complexity of a gameplay mechanic (or to remove it entirely).

Considering that the advanced wounding/medical and battlefield clearance modules were removed in ARMA3 without any kind of replacement, I'd say that fits the description of dumbing down.

And since getting shot/wounded/killed is a pretty central theme to a military game, it's fair to say the game has been dumbed down. (Especially since there aren't many elements where complexity has been increased.)

[fitzee 7]

Hi.

Of course the games obviously been dumbed down.

Anyone who has been a fan of the full series, that says otherwise is obviously a troll, you just need to go to ANY complaint thread to see the same trolls repeatedly posting the same arguments trying to downplay most any valid complaint(no wonder some people have thousands of posts in a couple years).

Either way I dont see much point in complaining as much as some are. I doubt things will get better. Lets see -make things more hardcore for the older players.. or -keep things dumbed down for a much larger userbase and more income...

Not really a tough choice.

Regards.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Fitzee

[zimms 22]

Maybe if you used a more neutral expression than "dumbed down", you wouldn't see as much resitance.

[Smurf 12]

Rename this thread to "Medical System Part #" because that seems to be all the dumbed down part.

[PlacidPaul 11]

Either way I dont see much point in complaining as much as some are. I doubt things will get better. Lets see -make things more hardcore for the older players.. or -keep things dumbed down for a much larger userbase and more income...

Arma3 at release is unfinished. There's alot to still do, I really think the health system will be given improvements, changed, or options in the editor. I don't expect ACE wounds, but i do expect something with a little substance. We should really throw a big stink about this, they do listen.

I hope any further discussion on the subject is not done from behind the veil of "realism". Everyone looks ridiculous behind veils. :p

We're not getting a realistic health system, like ACE. But, this game need something with more substance! How many times have the best moments come from dragging a friend through smoke to cover and saving him. Really, we don't get that in Arma3 :confused:!!!!!

[ProfTournesol 956]

Rename this thread to "Medical System Part #" because that seems to be all the dumbed down part.

Yes. There are two things that are bothering me :

(1) AI ground vehicles pathfinding, which has never really been corrected since OFP, and which is worse due to numerous factors i suppose (respect of ambient life, size of the island, funky rocks etc.).

(2) The damage system, which has been improved since OFP, but which is still very WIP. Not really satisfying for vehicles (i love the Iron Front one, even if it appears to be scripted), and not good/believable for human beings.

[bad benson 1733]

Maybe if you used a more neutral expression than "dumbed down", you wouldn't see as much resitance.

why would one use a neutral expression to describe someting negative just to not cause resistance by some people. i couldn't care less what some people think about facts or what reasoning they use to make those facts more digestable for themselves. a lot of people just name it like they see it and still get treated like the people who are opening 100 threads bashing the devs with insults. this two sides bullshit is so useless. not everything is a war of two extreme sides.

Rename this thread to "Medical System Part #" because that seems to be all the dumbed down part.

another thing is the way the character turns. while i'd like to see this in arma 3 just to see how it feels with the smooth anims, i don't really mind that much since to me a person would not just turn with the gun straight forward in real life if there is a threat behind him. you could speed it up by lowering it and pulling it up again. so having it simulated that way would maybe be interesting.

so being able to turn fast is not that big of a problem for me personally but i still can understand people who would like it and i'd find it interesting to see. especially with big cannons like 50cal rifles and MGs. and afaik this has been, to some extend, in arma 2.

How many times have the best moments come from dragging a friend through smoke to cover and saving him. Really, we don't get that in Arma3

so true.

there are still problems with the carrying anims BI wisely provided along with the dragging anims so people could fill the gap they left open. so improvement of what was there in arma 2 would be great. maybe even physX/ragdoll based dragging would be awesome but could look very awkward/funny if done wrong. or being able to shoot very inaccurately while dragging slower (could swear that was in the game at some point).

Edited September 18, 2013 by Bad Benson

[Smurf 12]

Yes. There are two things that are bothering me :

(1) AI ground vehicles pathfinding, which has never really been corrected since OFP, and which is worse due to numerous factors i suppose (respect of ambient life, size of the island, funky rocks etc.).

(2) The damage system, which has been improved since OFP, but which is still very WIP. Not really satisfying for vehicles (i love the Iron Front one, even if it appears to be scripted), and not good/believable for human beings.

Good thing that both are being (and help me here, this is the correct word? Beign?) worked on now.

another thing is the way the character turns. while i'd like to see this in arma 3 just to see how it feels with the smooth anims, i don't really mind that much since to me a person would not just turn with the gun straight forward in real life if there is a threat behind him. you could speed it up by lowering it and pulling it up again. so having it simulated that way would maybe be interesting.

so being able to turn fast is not that big of a problem for me personally but i still can understand people who would like it and i'd find it interesting to see. especially with big cannons like 50cal rifles and MGs. and afaik this has been, to some extend, in arma 2.

This, yes. But It's a problem IMO, bot that big on the scope of everything in Arma, but since CQB is now viable and fun, will be. Put setacctime to 0.2 and you still can spin too fast out of control.

A solution for that would use a free-aim "box", bigger for bigger\heavier guns, with a normal speed and outside that box you have a reduced turn speed, again, based on weapon you are using. RO2 did that and it works. Sadly not many around here like it. Even the ones that never tried it.

And as someone posted a while back (Metalcraze maybe?) you are more likely to find more "hardcore" players on other games (the example was good, DayZ) than in Arma where people say "But we don't like it, use a mod for that".

__________

Anyway, I think Arma will changed much on the comming months, there is room for that and Devs are working differently.

[Varanon 892]

(2) The damage system, which has been improved since OFP, but which is still very WIP. Not really satisfying for vehicles (i love the Iron Front one, even if it appears to be scripted), and not good/believable for human beings.

Hear, hear!

The work that Iron Front did on the armour penetration was just awesome. If you want to see it in action, check

[Harbinger2456 10]

It's not contributing to constantly bash a fellow member. You seem to be very occupied with metalcraze's posts. Maybe you are the one that should let it go. Don't get me wrong, if you have counter arguments we can all learn from let's hear them, but please enough with the ad hominem.

Lol, DM is a paid forum troll. Quite obvious.

[bad benson 1733]

A solution for that would use a free-aim "box", bigger for bigger\heavier guns, with a normal speed and outside that box you have a reduced turn speed, again, based on weapon you are using. RO2 did that and it works. Sadly not many around here like it. Even the ones that never tried it.

yea i'd really like something like that. great way of conveying the weight of different weapons. i played RO2 when it was free for a while on steam. i really liked it. didn't buy it though when the trial was over since i'm a cheap/poor basterd.

i think the movement in arma 3 is a prime example why this weird imagined war of fanboys and unreasonable complainers is a bad thing. everytime you will mention something that would restrict movement in the slightest way people will accuse you of wanting the horrible clunky arma 2 anims back.

[Harbinger2456 10]

Hahaha, as soon as you start running out of "arguments" you switch to plan B, telling someone to go fix the game himself, well played.

Yep, the usual garbage. I guess when you pay $60 for a game, your supposed to go to college and get a degree in game development, so you can fix all the bugs.

Oh wait, this games got steamkeys on sale for $30 on some sites now. I wonder why?

---------- Post added at 20:34 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------

Maybe if you used a more neutral expression than "dumbed down", you wouldn't see as much resitance.

From who, mindless fanboys who would praise BIS for putting out two sharpened sticks for $60? No, dumbed down is exactly the right word.

---------- Post added at 20:43 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

Hear, hear!

The work that Iron Front did on the armour penetration was just awesome. If you want to see it in action, check

Excellent video, thats exactly what we need. Plus tank interiors with clickable cockpits. What we have right now is just a dumbed down BF3 in a larger land.

[icewindo 29]

The injury system feels so stupid. In that aspect even DayZ is more realistic than ArmA3 . Have a look at the latest dev blogs, they have implemented different walking / running anims for when you were hit etc. Not to count the use of EPI, blood transfusions, etc., kinda like in ACE.

And what do we get in ArmA3? This.

And what happened to soldiers able to carry or drag the wounded, like in the ArmA2 First Aid System?

Instead of fixing the system, just delete it? That's the spirit.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Icewindo

[dmarkwick 261]

Medic has infinite number of them and can be 50m away handwaving as long as he started casting a spell when you were up close. And you can still shoot people while he heals you which is just FPDR

For information - I tried exactly this tonight. About 20 minutes ago. I was injured, I validated my damage level, and requested a medic. When he started to heal me, I then moved off (seemed like a silly thing to do, but I did this for the best of reasons :)) and I did not get healed.

[Varanon 892]

For information - I tried exactly this tonight. About 20 minutes ago. I was injured, I validated my damage level, and requested a medic. When he started to heal me, I then moved off (seemed like a silly thing to do, but I did this for the best of reasons :)) and I did not get healed.

The fact that you can still move is already a problem. Granted, this was in Arma2 without medic system modules, too, but at least you didn't have a healing potion that automagically healed you to 75 % health.

[dmarkwick 261]

The fact that you can still move is already a problem. Granted, this was in Arma2 without medic system modules, too, but at least you didn't have a healing potion that automagically healed you to 75 % health.

I don't know that it is. If I need to move off prematurely, then I should be able to, right? With the appropriate penalty that I have not received healing. I guess there might be a problem if you're the medic though, can they also move off prematurely? I got the feeling from Metalcraze's posts that he could not, but then I haven't tried it myself and this seems to be crucial in dealing with these issues :)

[Varanon 892]

I don't know that it is. If I need to move off prematurely, then I should be able to, right? With the appropriate penalty that I have not received healing. I guess there might be a problem if you're the medic though, can they also move off prematurely? I got the feeling from Metalcraze's posts that he could not, but then I haven't tried it myself and this seems to be crucial in dealing with these issues :)

Haven't tried myself either, but in either way, the problem is that you are still fully combat effective, even if someone is just sticking a needle up your behind. In Arma 2, soldiers that were getting healed sometimes knelt down (I don't know what circumstances exactly), but that should be the default: You should not be able to shoot, or fight in an way, once some medic is treating you.

[chortles 263]

Admittedly I'm only interested in "inability to fight" so long as that's accompanied by "ability to cancel" as DMarkwick described -- for me it's "implement both together or implement neither". Admittedly this would probably be more readily resolved if the animation system weren't what it is with static animations...

[metalcraze 290]

The fact that you can still move is already a problem. Granted, this was in Arma2 without medic system modules, too, but at least you didn't have a healing potion that automagically healed you to 75 % health.

In ArmA2 you couldn't move or shoot when medic was healing you. The soldier would kneel with his weapon on the ground and when the medic is done you'd be able to move again.

It took you out of combat for 9 seconds but hey don't get shot.

Even if you didn't get healed DMarkwick that still doesn't change the fact that game has been dumbed down severely in regards to wounding and healing.

I don't know that it is. If I need to move off prematurely, then I should be able to, right? With the appropriate penalty that I have not received healing. I guess there might be a problem if you're the medic though, can they also move off prematurely? I got the feeling from Metalcraze's posts that he could not, but then I haven't tried it myself and this seems to be crucial in dealing with these issues :)

Animations in ArmA3 still cannot be broken. So instead of doing it right and fixing this 12 years old issue BIS just shortened them to 3 seconds and doesn't use any for a guy that's being healed. Whoop-dee-doo, what an improvement. Let's praise BIS for utterly ruining a medic system.

[rangerpl 13]

Good to see our resident elitists haven't gone out of business.

BTW, fun fact: At release, the ArmA 2 medical system was even more "dumbed down" than the ArmA 3 one is now. Medics were able to heal you to 100% without needing ANY supplies. But don't let facts get in your way!

[Phantom Six 25]

Good to see our resident elitists haven't gone out of business.

BTW, fun fact: At release, the ArmA 2 medical system was even more "dumbed down" than the ArmA 3 one is now. Medics were able to heal you to 100% without needing ANY supplies. But don't let facts get in your way!

So does medics in ARMA 3... The difference is that you can now use FAKs to heal yourself without a medic. So now everyone can be a medic without having to be a medic :j:

[Smurf 12]

Animations in ArmA3 still cannot be broken. So instead of doing it right and fixing this 12 years old issue BIS just shortened them to 3 seconds and doesn't use any for a guy that's being healed. Whoop-dee-doo, what an improvement. Let's praise BIS for utterly ruining a medic system.

IMO, the medic should be able to be somewhat combat ready but the patient (unless has only minor damage) no. Well, to avoid that and slighty improve the medic they could add a system similar to AA3, in parts:

They discarted improvements even for after release?