AI Discussion (dev branch)

[kremator 1065]

Can't you set them to Careless mode? That way they will not react to any fire.

[Jona33 51]

I have noticed for a while that you can no longer use a tank to attack infantry if they are armed with AT, especially if you are relying on an AI crew in the gunner & commander positions. The infantry will disable the tank before they get taken out. They will also engage from 1.5 - 2km away once they become aware of the tank. That's why we need tank rounds that damage/kill the infantry, otherwise the tank will not survive to get in range to engage with it's machine guns effectively

Seems about balanced to me, (using RHS so it's an old-school BTR vs an M136), some of the time the APC wins, other times me or my team mate hits him first.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Can't you set them to Careless mode? That way they will not react to any fire.

I mean in the absence of combat.

I am still having civilians in civilian vehicles think it is safe to cut cross country to get from one road position to another.

_grp setBehaviour "CARELESS";

_grp setSpeedMode "LIMITED";

It seems to especially occur after a cycle waypoint is issued and they have to turn around. Instead of fully turning around and going back on the road, they choose to cut across mountains and fields in their SUVs and hatchbacks. I believe there should be a variable or command that allows us to force use of roads, sort of a driving counterpart to 'setCaptive'.

In the meantime, I have to make their wheels indestructible to allow them to abuse their cars.

Also AI seem to have lost the ability to do a 3-point turn, from when I was experimenting about 6 months ago.

Often when performing the 'reverse' point#2 in a 3-point turn, they will turn the wheel back the wrong way while the vehicle is almost at point #2, causing the vehicle to re-orient itself toward point #1, and failing the 3-point turn.

They eventually get it right, after about 5-10 attempts.

EDIT: doing a lot more AI work this week, will report anything I find that stands out, and get some video of it too.

Edited December 15, 2014 by MDCCLXXVI

[seba1976 98]

@MDCCLXXVI What map are you trying to make the AI to drive through?

[katipo66 94]

I mean in the absence of combat.

I am still having civilians in civilian vehicles think it is safe to cut cross country to get from one road position to another.

_grp setBehaviour "CARELESS";

_grp setSpeedMode "LIMITED";

It seems to especially occur after a cycle waypoint is issued and they have to turn around. Instead of fully turning around and going back on the road, they choose to cut across mountains and fields in their SUVs and hatchbacks. I believe there should be a variable or command that allows us to force use of roads, sort of a driving counterpart to 'setCaptive'.

In the meantime, I have to make their wheels indestructible to allow them to abuse their cars.

I get this with hand placed waypoints set to safe and using cycle, happens to all vehicles not just civilians, this is on Stratis, I'd say it's an introduced bug as it never happened before.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

@MDCCLXXVI What map are you trying to make the AI to drive through?

mmm Altis?

[alky_lee 279]

What's the situation IRL? Because AFAIK, AT infantry (specially with guided rockets) are a very serious threat to armoured vehicles.

I don't know about IRL, they wouldn't give us guided AT rockets to play with, just the point and shoot variety, and then only rarely. I like the fact that the AI will engage tanks with AT at that distance. That is as it should be I think. It's the taks v infantry I struggle with.

They are called HE rounds and we already have them!

I've tried hitting a couple of infantry with HE rounds at 1800m and they took a lot of killing. A lot of the nearby buildings died very quickly though. I think I must need to practice more.

[tomeek 10]

Anyone can confirm this issue?

First I'm placing 4 units in the editor:

- first unit with skill slider set to min,

- second unit with skill slider set to default,

- third unit with skill slider set to max,

- fourth unit with skill set via setSkill array with the following code:

this setSkill ["aimingspeed", 0.5];this setSkill ["aimingaccuracy", 0.5];this setSkill ["aimingshake", 0.5];this setSkill ["spottime", 0.5];this setSkill ["spotdistance", 0.5];this setSkill ["commanding", 0.5];this setSkill ["general", 0.5];this setSkill ["reloadspeed", 0.5];this setSkill ["courage", 0.5];this setSkill ["endurance", 0.5];

I'm checking sub skills using the following code:

this addAction ["Show skills",{  hintsilent format["aimingAccuracy %1\n  aimingShake %2\n  aimingSpeed %3\n  spotDistance %4\n  spotTime %5\n  courage %6\n  reloadSpeed %7\n  commanding %8\n  general %9\n", cursortarget skill "aimingAccuracy",cursortarget skill "aimingShake",cursortarget skill "aimingSpeed",cursortarget skill "spotDistance",cursortarget skill "spotTime",cursortarget skill "courage",cursortarget skill "reloadSpeed",cursortarget skill "commanding",cursortarget skill "general"];}];

First I'm checking sub skill values in the editor preview and all of them seems to be correct: 0.2 for the 1st unit, 0.6 for the 2nd unit, 1 for the 3rd unit and 0.5 for the 4th unit. All of this with difficulty settings in game options set to Expert.

Then I'm doing the same in multiplayer via Host. All of the sub skills values are the same as in the editor preview.

And the issue begins with testing the same with dedicated (vanilla) server. Server startup line:

-port=2302 "-profiles=C:\TCAFiles\Users\servers\A3\" -name=User -world=empty -cfg=basic.cfg -config=server.cfg

When I'm checking sub skills on dedicated server I get max value (1) on all sub skills on the three first units (with skill configured via skill slider in editor), and then on the 4th unit (skill configured via setSkill array) I get correct values (0.6) for all sub skills.

I'm missing something or the skill slider from unit creation in editor is broken?

Edit 1. Units placed on the dedicated server via Zeus have correct sub skill values.

Edit 2. Example mission: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0yzdstflrc3434/test%2520skill%2520ai.Stratis.pbo?dl=0

Edit 3. Unit placed via editor with skill assigned with command setSkill has a correct skill value on dedicated server.

Edited December 16, 2014 by tomeek
more testing

[tomeek 10]

Should I open a ticket on FT if any DEV isn't ansewering to my issue?

[Tyl3r99 41]

Should I open a ticket on FT if any DEV isn't ansewering to my issue?

yes you should

[seba1976 98]

How do I know if an issue is already in the FT? I can't for the life of me, get that damn page to show any tickets. I want all tickets regarding FFV.

[killzone_kid 1331]

How do I know if an issue is already in the FT?

Type in Google

site:feedback.arma3.com your search query

[seba1976 98]

@Killzone_Kid: That did it. Thank's a lot.

---------- Post added at 17:34 ---------- Previous post was at 17:23 ----------

OK, so apparently, no one reported a problem I'm having from day one. That usually means one is doing something really wrong. So before I create a ticket, and just to be sure, does anybody knows a simple reason why I cannot enter firing positions? I see the cargo position icons, but not the firing positions one. Sometimes it gets fixed if I enter as driver or cargo first, and then change positions from inside. That way the firing positions get "unlocked" for the rest of the game. I'm sorry for the offtopic, I won't keep this going.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

I get this with hand placed waypoints set to safe and using cycle, happens to all vehicles not just civilians, this is on Stratis, I'd say it's an introduced bug as it never happened before.

Indeed ...

After quite a bit of AI vehicle scripting, I have to say the AI driving is not good enough. I have seen it better that it is now, and I believe the standard to achieve should be this:

- A civilian BIS AI with no mods/scripts, not under the influence of panic or whatever, should be able to drive around a BIS-authored terrain for 1 hour without immobilizing its own vehicle. Anything less than that, to me, represents a bug.

At the moment, the ones I test last about 1 to 5 minutes before their vehicle is damaged to the point of immobility. I am finding just way too many ways for the AI to, without external influences, destroy or immobilize their own vehicle. This is not satisfactory.

At the moment, I have to apply silly event handlers to the civ and vehicle, and also run a separate thread, all as a support structure for AI poor driving.

Is there any way to determine if a vehicles wheels are spinning? Some land vehicle counterpart to helicopter RPM?

I ask because, as result of the above I have to monitor the AI car every minute or two to determine if it's stuck on a rock or behind a tree or between buildings. And if it is stuck (hasnt moved yet wheels are spinning), I have to then setpos to a safe nearby location.

[becubed 24]

Anyone can confirm this issue?

I can't confirm it but there was someone a week or two ago saying that when they tested their missions in the editor they went OK but when deployed to a dedi server they got massacred by hyper efficient AI. I can't find the post at the moment but it sounds like you may have found the cause.

Edit: Found the topic http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?186430-AI-become-Ninja-Jedi-Elite-dangerous-after-I-finish-edit-and-go-to-mutiplayer-Why

Edited December 18, 2014 by becubed
Found the topic

[tomeek 10]

I can't confirm it but there was someone a week or two ago saying that when they tested their missions in the editor they went OK but when deployed to a dedi server they got massacred by hyper efficient AI. I can't find the post at the moment but it sounds like you may have found the cause.

Edit: Found the topic http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?186430-AI-become-Ninja-Jedi-Elite-dangerous-after-I-finish-edit-and-go-to-mutiplayer-Why

Thank you for your response. I already submitted a ticket on the official Feedback Tracker.

I did some more testing with the difficulty settings in mp lobby and by modifying the arma3profile file with different skillAI and accuracyAI while having preset set to 3 and nothing from this worked.

[f2k sel 164]

Indeed ...

After quite a bit of AI vehicle scripting, I have to say the AI driving is not good enough. I have seen it better that it is now, and I believe the standard to achieve should be this:

- A civilian BIS AI with no mods/scripts, not under the influence of panic or whatever, should be able to drive around a BIS-authored terrain for 1 hour without immobilizing its own vehicle. Anything less than that, to me, represents a bug.

At the moment, the ones I test last about 1 to 5 minutes before their vehicle is damaged to the point of immobility. I am finding just way too many ways for the AI to, without external influences, destroy or immobilize their own vehicle. This is not satisfactory.

At the moment, I have to apply silly event handlers to the civ and vehicle, and also run a separate thread, all as a support structure for AI poor driving.

Is there any way to determine if a vehicles wheels are spinning? Some land vehicle counterpart to helicopter RPM?

I ask because, as result of the above I have to monitor the AI car every minute or two to determine if it's stuck on a rock or behind a tree or between buildings. And if it is stuck (hasnt moved yet wheels are spinning), I have to then setpos to a safe nearby location.

I find even if you get the AI to drive from point A-B reliably (well most of the time) when you add scripts that has an impact on AI driving so it all goes to pot again as it messes with the timing.

[seba1976 98]

I find even if you get the AI to drive from point A-B reliably (well most of the time) when you add scripts that has an impact on AI driving so it all goes to pot again as it messes with the timing.

Care to elaborate? I'm interested. I do a lot of driving in some gamemodes, and so does the AI.

[f2k sel 164]

Care to elaborate? I'm interested. I do a lot of driving in some gamemodes, and so does the AI.

I haven't checked in a while but I found that vehicles would turn later for corners when a lot of AI or scripts were running.

I think I also read where AI were only allowed x amount of time and if things slow down they suffer, I don't know if this was an official comment or not.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

I haven't checked in a while but I found that vehicles would turn later for corners when a lot of AI or scripts were running.

I think I also read where AI were only allowed x amount of time and if things slow down they suffer, I don't know if this was an official comment or not.

Well, all AI processing does get piped through one CPU core, so if things are delayed then each process will have to wait its turn.

Considering AI FSM is unscheduled, and each AI unit represents an FSM thread, that is massive amount of FSM being rammed through the CPU all at once. 50 AI = 50 FSM threads.

Only matter of numbers before processes slow down.

Edited December 19, 2014 by MDCCLXXVI

[seba1976 98]

I think things should have gone south really bad in the unscheduled environment for the AI to "turn later", but it would be one hell of a thing to see though. Worth the experiment. I might try it this weekend.

[dnk 13]

I just have to say, the AI is still way too accurate. I mean this in the sense that the AI shouldn't be able to be as accurate as it is able to be now, nor should higher difficulty settings up it so much.

Another poster said about a 0.3 for aiming was best, and my own testing in the past (before the enhancements) agree with that. 0.25-0.35 is actually pretty accurate, more than a lot of human players even.

And then a lot of missions end up with 0.5 or 0.75, which is impossible, even for the best-of-the-best humans, both to mimic and to reasonably survive.

The whole scale still needs a total overhaul, with the current 0.2 being like the new 0.67.

I can't help but think this, along with other AI failings, is what has all but destroyed coop. With a few big exceptions (7th cav mostly), pure coop is dead. In A1/A2 there were way more servers doing coop. Of course, that was pre-wasteland/DayZ, but you'd expect there'd still be a lot of those players around, yet I look at the lists now and what is there? 100 or so players on coop on a good night and 1500 on PvP every other.

I used to love coop, but getting headshotted at 150m constantly gets old quick, and having done tons of PvP in Arma, I know the AI are ridiculously overpowered in ability compared to human aim.

[lexx 1391]

Agreed. I am replaying the campaign right now, and it feels A LOT harder than it was the first time. The ai is so fast at killing me (and I never changed the difficulty from Regular to anything else), I am pretty much reloading all the time to learn the ai positions, so I can kill them before they kill me or wipe out my stupid ai team. I kind of feel like Tom Cruise in Edge of Tomorrow. It is the definite way of killing all the fun right now.

[Variable 322]

I just have to say, the AI is still way too accurate. I mean this in the sense that the AI shouldn't be able to be as accurate as it is able to be now, nor should higher difficulty settings up it so much.

Another poster said about a 0.3 for aiming was best, and my own testing in the past (before the enhancements) agree with that. 0.25-0.35 is actually pretty accurate, more than a lot of human players even.

And then a lot of missions end up with 0.5 or 0.75, which is impossible, even for the best-of-the-best humans, both to mimic and to reasonably survive.

The whole scale still needs a total overhaul, with the current 0.2 being like the new 0.67.

I can't help but think this, along with other AI failings, is what has all but destroyed coop. With a few big exceptions (7th cav mostly), pure coop is dead. In A1/A2 there were way more servers doing coop. Of course, that was pre-wasteland/DayZ, but you'd expect there'd still be a lot of those players around, yet I look at the lists now and what is there? 100 or so players on coop on a good night and 1500 on PvP every other.

I used to love coop, but getting headshotted at 150m constantly gets old quick, and having done tons of PvP in Arma, I know the AI are ridiculously overpowered in ability compared to human aim.

The AI difficulty was indeed increased gradually with each official update of the game. We used to run much higher settings than the 0.6 skill and 0.3 precision we use now. Being a pure coop server admin myself, I can only agree with the above. BI patches gradually break AI and introduce coop scenarios game-breaking bugs that it got too frustrating to find a workable scenario when trying to run a coop night. Not being able to run a simple ambush mission or illogically being detected by AI for no apparent reason, or not being able to approach the beach while diving without getting detected and a whole other range of AI problems, and having to constantly struggle with the AI settings with each and every game patch have turned many peoples main hobby into a continuous frustration. I don't know what BIS is planning (or not planning) for the coop future, but it is looking rather grim now.

[KeyCat 131]

Not being able to run a simple ambush mission or illogically being detected by AI for no apparent reason, or not being able to approach the beach while diving without getting detected and a whole other range of AI problems...

Pretty much sums up my experience as well when trying to play against AI and I add to that no working ghillie :confused:

I haven't done any real AI testing lately but to me it appears that if you are closer than ~200 m to them they are extremely good at spotting/detecting you and with extremely good I mean "terminator" style. As soon as a square cm of any part of your avatars body is in LOS to any of them (when they switched to Combat mode) no matter what grass/vegetation/objects you try to conseal yourself behind.

/KC

Edited December 20, 2014 by KeyCat