AI Discussion (dev branch)

[Tyl3r99 41]

i think arma 2 wasnt as bad i cant really remember...

but yes some sort of work around could be very handy :D

and please look into the [AI] medic healing other units, its a bit of a lengthy process :P

[2nd ranger 282]

You should just be able to go up to a medic and heal yourself, which was how it was in Flashpoint. It would save everybody alot of time and energy. It's one of those things that I don't really understand why it was removed.

[Varanon 892]

You should just be able to go up to a medic and heal yourself, which was how it was in Flashpoint. It would save everybody alot of time and energy. It's one of those things that I don't really understand why it was removed.

Next time you visit your doctor, walk up to him and give yourself an injection, and you know why it was removed. ;)

But honestly, what time and energy ? Why not remove damage completely from the game if you want it to be inconsequential.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Next time you visit your doctor, walk up to him and give yourself an injection, and you know why it was removed. ;)

But honestly, what time and energy ? Why not remove damage completely from the game if you want it to be inconsequential.

I do agree with 2nd ranger, and i don't see the point in your post. Gameplay wise, having to have a medic to heal oneself was very much better than that stupid self injection we have now. The medic was stacking healing orders, and came to you when available.

Edited October 16, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[Alwarren 2767]

I do agree with 2nd ranger, and i don't see the point in your post. Gameplay wise, having to have a medic to heal oneself was very much better than that stupid self injection we have now. The medic was stacking healing orders, and came to you when available.

This makes sense only in single player. In multiplayer IMO, there should be no or very limited self-healing, and an active action by the Medic, not the player walking up to the medic, should be required.

I think most of us are not very happy about the current medical system, but just self-healing at a medic is definitely not a step in the right direction (in multiplayer).

[2nd ranger 282]

walk up to him and give yourself an injection

You're not walking up to the medic and grabbing his stuff and healing yourself. You're asking him to heal you. If you're wounded and you see a medic, you should be able to go up to him and say "heal me". But let's not use realism as an argument here - this is purely about gameplay. The very idea of a medic, or at least the role of the medic as it fuctions in this game, is already highly unrealistic.

But honestly, what time and energy?

The time spent waiting for an AI medic to stop walking around you and going prone for two minutes before finally healing you. It's annoying and breaks immersion, and makes the AI look totally inept. Sometimes they get to you quickly, but in my experience that is not common. And, as ProfTournesol said, the addition of FAKs has already made damage inconsequential. Yes, they can be removed by the mission maker, but nobody ever does.

This makes sense only in single player. [...] just self-healing at a medic is definitely not a step in the right direction (in multiplayer).

This is the AI discussion thread, why does it make a difference which game mode we're discussing? Do you mean that if a medic is a player in MP, they should be the ones instigating the treatment? I totally agree with that, but if the medic is AI, they are often very slow at healing you. Their AI should either be improved, or the player should be allowed to go up and say "heal me".

Edited October 16, 2014 by 2nd Ranger

[Alwarren 2767]

This is the AI discussion thread, why does it make a difference which game mode we're discussing? Do you mean that if a medic is a player in MP, they should be the ones instigating the treatment? I totally agree with that, but if the medic is AI, they are often very slow at healing you. Their AI should either be improved, or the player should be allowed to go up and say "heal me".

I don't think that it makes sense to modify the behavior depending on whether it is a player or AI. What really should be done is that the AI needs to be improved, anything else is at best a stop-gap solution, or at worst a hack. I certainly agree that when you are hit and need a medic, it is more than annoying to have to wait for them to finally get to the healing, but that is the same problem as with getting into vehicles etc - the AI just doesn't react fast enough when ordered to do something. It is exactly that part of the AI that needs fixing - quicker reaction to orders given, especially given by a human player. Any improvement on that front will be a general one for AI.

[Varanon 892]

I do agree with 2nd ranger, and i don't see the point in your post. Gameplay wise, having to have a medic to heal oneself was very much better than that stupid self injection we have now. The medic was stacking healing orders, and came to you when available.

Ok, let me clarify:

Why walk up to the medic and heal yourself ? I don't get the advantage of it. If you are hurt, the medic should come to you and heal you, especially if your mobility is limited due to leg wounds.

The medic is stacking healing orders, sure, but that still does not make it any more sensible. What should be the case is that you call "Injured" and if you're not the team leader, your team leader will order the medic to heal you.

If your and Rangers point was that the medics sometimes take too long to react or don't react at all, then yes, that's a problem I agree with, but the solution for that would be to have the medic prioritize the healing. This is NOT accomplished by walking up to him, but rather letting him come to you.

Another point: Assume you're injured and need a medic and you are not the team leader and you are not in combat. If the medic is in formation (which is usually the case for AI), then you might not even be able to approach him because he will try to keep formation and move away from you.

And yet another point: Try to even identify the medic, especially if your vision is blurred through injury ?

Bottom line: Having to walk to the medic is a bad idea, for a multitude of reasons (limited mobility after injury, formation, visibility). The only viable solution is to have him come to you, either because you yell "injured", or because you are the team leader and ask him to come.

The time spent waiting for an AI medic to stop walking around you and going prone for two minutes before finally healing you. It's annoying and breaks immersion, and makes the AI look totally inept.

Agreed, but as I outlined above, having to walk up to the medic yourself isn't a solution at all. Medics should react faster to injuries, yes, but by realizing they are medics first and riflemen second and when someone needs to be treated, they should give that priority.

I also fully agree that AI reacts far too slow, and that's the case with everything.. just try to tell them to get into a vehicle...

[oukej 2910]

Something has got broken somewhere quite recently

bob = createagent [typeof player, position player, [], 0, "none"];

bob moveTo position player;

NOTHING!

It was definitely working on 10th of August, I can tell you this much.

Could you please give me the rev. number? I can't see it thru the YT bar.

But anyway - went into May revisions and the behavior was the same even back then :/ This is for a longer run.

[Tyl3r99 41]

You should just be able to go up to a medic and heal yourself, which was how it was in Flashpoint. It would save everybody alot of time and energy. It's one of those things that I don't really understand why it was removed.

good question really

[vipermaul 246]

Could you please give me the rev. number? I can't see it thru the YT bar.

But anyway - went into May revisions and the behavior was the same even back then :/ This is for a longer run.

Taking it out of full screen mode gives a better chance to see the rev. number

It looks like 1.27.126636

References:

http://gyazo.com/0ffb7cfb5a7317f8f523c9dd602b6994

http://gyazo.com/515a79462e8c1f013d2dc9dbc2e753ac

[oukej 2910]

Taking it out of full screen mode gives a better chance to see the rev. number

It looks like 1.27.126636

References:

http://gyazo.com/0ffb7cfb5a7317f8f523c9dd602b6994

http://gyazo.com/515a79462e8c1f013d2dc9dbc2e753ac

Lol, true Actually I have a 16:9 and I tried to see it in full screen...didn't think of checking in window, downloading or anything. I shouldn't sit here for that long, not healthy :D thx anyway

[killzone_kid 1330]

But anyway - went into May revisions and the behavior was the same even back then :/ This is for a longer run.

Damn it! Now you make me question my sanity :) In short, I cannot guarantee you I was using agents for that video, but I am pretty sure I did... I hope I did. In any case, why moveTo doesn't work with men? It works with animals.

[killzone_kid 1330]

Both AIs server side, heli is all red, they jumped out and and one is bossing another to get back in the heli:

[oukej 2910]

Humanlike, aren't they? I was expecting you to shoot them in the end. Our programmers do that usually. :)

Btw, you have any details, circumstances? Quickly tried damaging a non-local AI controlled helicopter and the AIs happily disembarked with no intention to get back in whatsoever..

[killzone_kid 1330]

Humanlike, aren't they? I was expecting you to shoot them in the end. Our programmers do that usually. :)

Btw, you have any details, circumstances? Quickly tried damaging a non-local AI controlled helicopter and the AIs happily disembarked with no intention to get back in whatsoever..

I might have killed a few friendlies and then damaged the choppa. From what I witnessed, AIs feel threatened and want to flee, but the choppa is damaged so it is impossible. Something like that. I might have logged out when they shot at me, then logged back in, and then I noticed them talking to each other. Both AIs had injuries too.

I noticed the sound was disappearing shortly after so I had to constantly reposition myself to hear both AIs, otherwise I could hear only one or none, but both had lips moving.

[Tonci87 163]

I was expecting you to shoot them in the end. Our programmers do that usually. :)

Somehow this made my day :)

[das attorney 858]

Yes that's the best thing I've read on the internet today :)

[lazerath 10]

Humanlike, aren't they? I was expecting you to shoot them in the end. Our programmers do that usually. :)

@Oukej or any other Dev following this thread.

I am suffering from some major issues with the AI in Arma 3. (Sorry, not reading over 100 pages to see if its been asked already. As I have searched that many pages already looking for fixes.

First some game info.

Arma 3 Latest Version Public Release (NON-Dev version)

Mods Used:

@CBA_A3

Shack Tactical Fireteam Hud

'--> Includes: Fireteam HUD, ShackTac Group Indicators, ShackTac Name Tags, ShackTac Stamina Bar, ShackTac Map Auto-brightness, Not using -> (ShackTac Interact)

No other mods being used. However, the issues I experience happen with out using the above mods as well (No Mods and with mentioned mods).

Single Player Game: Campaign, Showcases (that you are in command of AI) and Scenarios (Downloaded Single Player Missions where you command AI in your squad).

Issues I am having: AI FAIL to listen to your player commands. I am suffering from AI being stuck in either stealth or danger mode and not able to switch them to a different mode (Safe or Aware). This happens regularly in game for me and its very frustrating. They will even fire at enemies when they've been told to Hold-Fire. Examples and Issues Below.

Mission Starts: You are in command of your AI. At this point I have no problems controlling the AI. I am able to give orders/commands and they seem to follow them immediately or fairly quickly. Change status from Safe -> Danger -> Stealth -> Aware -> Safe again and the AI follows the commands with no problems. However, once I come in to contact or spot the Enemy AI or my Squad AI Spot/Engage the Enemy AI the problems start to arise and in a very big way.

Player notices Enemy AI or my AI Squad notices them first (Doesn't matter which).

1. Player sets AI from Aware or Safe too -> Danger or Stealth mode.

After changing the players Squad AI to either of these modes (Danger or Stealth), before or after enemy AI have been spotted or engaged this nasty issue will start to happen (Its not always immediate and sometimes does not happen until a few minutes into engaging or spotting the enemy).

Issue: Player Squad AI stay in Danger or Stealth mode and will NOT change to Aware or Safe/Relax mode even after all the enemy are dead. The longest I have seen the AI stay this way is for over an hour in game (before I finally gave up and restarted) even after I have moved several in-game kilometers from where any enemy AI could possibly be. This is frustrating because moving with the AI fast while they are stuck in this mode is impossible unless you have a vehicle to put them in. Also, they continually call out movements and cover each other while moving. Ever tried to move several kilometers on foot in the game while your squad is slowly moving from cover to cover calling out their movements etc.? Impossible to finish a mission that is on a short time limit when your squad is doing this crap. Suxors big time!

This issue needs to be addressed. I do not play much multiplayer (haven't in over a year now) and so AI in single player games is important. This issue literally makes the game un-playable at times (for Single Player missions with AI).

I have tried everything to get them to stop and go back to safe or aware mode. No-Target, Disengage, Stop and move commands to specific spots, Adjusting stances from prone, crouch and stand-up. Issuing different orders and still nothing seems to work. Sometimes if I am lucky after 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 minutes the AI will finally go back to Safe or Aware mode but it does not always happen. :(

Next Issue: AI will randomly start firing at Enemy AI/Vehicles/Objects when they are under the HOLD FIRE command.

1. Player notices Enemy AI or Player Squad AI notice Enemy AI

2. Player then sets AI to Hold Fire.

3. At this point Player Squad AI members (any of them) can and will still fire at Enemy AI even if the Enemy AI are hundreds of meters away and have NOT detected the Player or his Squad of AI.

Another Issue that happens in this scenario whether the above happens or not.

4. The player then selects a specific or multiple Squad AI members in his group (Doesn't matter which as it happens for both single and multiple AI selections).

5. Player selects a target for specific or multiple Squad AI members.

6. If the selected Player Squad AI members are AT or AA soldiers who have been set to target an Enemy Vehicle, Aircraft or Object the will automatically fire at this point. Even though the Player AI Squad members STILL have the HOLD FIRE order.

7. If the select Player Squad AI members are targeting Enemy AI Infantry they will still follow their HOLD FIRE Order (Most of the time).

8. Player then orders specific or Multiple Squad AI members to FIRE (Menu 3, Option 3 = Fire) which is SUPPOSED to make the AI only fire at their specific target until it is dead, then go back into HOLD FIRE mode.

9. However, this does not happen. The AI will shoot at its target, once the target is down it will start shooting at anything it deems as an Enemy (even if they are 400-500 meters away and have NOT noticed/realized one of their fellow Enemy AI have been killed). Again this is NOT supposed to happen, once the target is dead the Player Squad AI member(s) are supposed to go back to HOLD FIRE mode.

Will these issues be looked at and fixed? Or am I posting this in the wrong thread? If I am posting in the wrong thread I apologize for the inconvenience and will gladly repost it in the proper area (just let me know where).

Cheers,

Oh and Keep up the good work on trying to improve the game! I really enjoy the Arma Series (aside from issues like these).

[Variable 322]

Next Issue: AI will randomly start firing at Enemy AI/Vehicles/Objects when they are under the HOLD FIRE command.

...

3. At this point Player Squad AI members (any of them) can and will still fire at Enemy AI even if the Enemy AI are hundreds of meters away and have NOT detected the Player or his Squad of AI.

The "self proclaimed danger mode" needs to go, that's for sure. It was discussed in this thread in details and it has been confirmed that the devs are concerned about it too. However, no confirmation has been given regarding any intentions or efforts made or plans to fix it.

Regarding the quoted part I do not agree. If your AI's hold fire status was broken, it is because it noticed that it was detected. AI will break a "hold fire" status if it sees that it was detected by the enemy and that's good. It is true that in some cases AI detect (and that includes detection of counter detection) far and concealed targets but the problem here is not with the AI response - open fire when you are detected. I would not expect them to just hold their fire when they see that the enemy is about to shoot them.

The problem in this case is the supernatural AI detection capabilities in some cases, and not the hold fire behavior.

[KeyCat 131]

If your AI's hold fire status was broken, it is because it noticed that it was detected. AI will break a "hold fire" status if it sees that it was detected by the enemy and that's good.

I somewhat agree but IMHO it would be better if the AI only returned fire if fired upon when ordered to hold fire.

/KC

[Variable 322]

I somewhat agree but IMHO it would be better if the AI only returned fire if fired upon when ordered to hold fire.

/KC

Consider the following case - You move slowly in a forest and one of your AI is detected by an enemy. Your AI sees the enemy as he draws his weapon and take an aim. The AI holds fire, the AI gets killed. That's not desired nor realistic. AI detection in long ranges and through obstacles is the issue here, not the AI response to being detected.

[lazerath 10]

Regarding the quoted part I do not agree. If your AI's hold fire status was broken, it is because it noticed that it was detected. AI will break a "hold fire" status if it sees that it was detected by the enemy and that's good.

Well thats the nice thing about life, you do not have to agree on anything that anyone else thinks, says or feels. However, in my very humble opinion your choice to disagree is wrong, lol! Were you there playing the mission with me (I wish you were, at least I'd have a useful team mate then)? Were you there to experience what I went through (you could have helped me shoot my AI squad moments after they screwed up the mission)? Nope you were not there, so feel free to not agree, but it makes absolutely no sense to me how someone can disagree with someone elses experience that they themselves did not experience. Thats like telling someone who rode on a roller coaster it wasn't fun, or scary etc. when they themself did not ride on it. :p

Back on topic:

In a situation like what I experienced, I would prefer if I told my AI to HOLD FIRE, they HOLD FIRE no matter what. There are lots of situations where that would work well. However, I would also like to have the "Hold Fire" command to have more options or to be more definable like the following.

Option A

Multiple Hold Fire Commands under the same (3) Engage Menu:

Menu (3) Engage

1. Open Fire
   
   
2. Hold Fire - AI Does NOT shoot unless told to Open Fire or Menu Option 4 Fire (Currently Option 3).
   
   
3. Hold Fire unless Fired Upon.
   
   
4. Fire - AI Fires at Designated Target Only.
   
   

The above change to the Engage Menu (3) could easily be achieved as there are currently only 9 menu options in that list. Ten slots are available before having to navigate the menu to a second page etc.

However, there are going to be players who prefer more then just those two options, So it could be expanded on even more and make it a lot better for everyone and their tastes...

Option B

Change the (3) Engage Menu -> Option 2 "Hold Fire" command to a sub-menu link (like next page on the Target Menu etc.

Menu (3) Engage

1. 1. Open Fire
   
   
2. 2. Hold Fire - Options [switches to a Second Menu Page listing Hold Fire Options]
   
   
3. 3. Fire
   
   
4. 4. Engage - a selected unit will start chasing a marked enemy, leaving the formation. It will return after the enemy has been killed.
   
   
5. 5. Engage at will - a selected unit will engage on every marked enemy
   
   
6. 6. Disengage - a selected unit that have received the Engage or Engage at will commands will return to formation.
   
   
7. 7. Scan horizon - selected units will scan the horizon in search for the enemy.
   
   
8. 8. Watch direction - a selected unit will carefully scan the direction you chose.
   
   
9. 9. Suppressive Fire) - a unit will lay down suppressive fire in direction of enemies
   
   

Menu (3) Engage --> Option 2. Hold Fire (Changed to a Sub-menu switching to Second Page/Menu called "Hold Fire"

1. Hold Fire - AI holds fire unless Detected. If detected they will open fire.
   
   
2. Hold Fire - AI Does Not shoot under any circumstances (Doesn't matter if Enemy AI Detect them and/or Shoot at them, they simply will NOT fire
   
   
3. Hold Fire - AI will not fire Unless first fired upon by Enemy AI (If Enemy AI detect them they still won't fire)
   
   
4. Hold Fire - Unless Squad Leader is Under Fire or Wounded
   
   
5. Hold Fire - Unless they have been wounded
   
   
6. I am sure there are more options but I am too tired and need to wrap this up and get some sleep :P
   
   

I personally think either of the above options listed with changes/additions to the AI behavior would be a LOT better. I also think it would be relatively easy for them to implement this fairly quickly.

It is true that in some cases AI detect (and that includes detection of counter detection) far and concealed targets but the problem here is not with the AI response - open fire when you are detected. I would not expect them to just hold their fire when they see that the enemy is about to shoot them. The problem in this case is the supernatural AI detection capabilities in some cases, and not the hold fire behavior.

I was not talking about the Open Fire command, rather the "Fire" command which is option 3 under the Engage Menu (3)(3). Every thing I have come across says the "Fire" option tells the AI to shoot at who ever they've been told to target and nothing else (if the "Hold Fire" command was previously issued). However, It may very well be a result of the Quote, "The problem in this case is the supernatural AI detection capabilities in some cases, and not the hold fire behavior."

However, I still experienced what I did and I think the above options or something similar would help greatly. It may not fix the God Like AI Detection but it would definitely make one part of controlling your squad AI better! Thanks for the info btw.

@KeyCat

I liked your Idea and snuck it in there... Hope you don't mind ;-)

PS: If any of this comes across snarky, rude etc. Its not meant to be, I'm tired and ma brain is not working too well...

Cheers!

---------- Post added at 11:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 PM ----------

Consider the following case - You move slowly in a forest and one of your AI is detected by an enemy. Your AI sees the enemy as he draws his weapon and take an aim. The AI holds fire, the AI gets killed. That's not desired nor realistic. AI detection in long ranges and through obstacles is the issue here, not the AI response to being detected.

The AI may be dead yes, unrealistic? You really want to go there? You already mentioned the AI having essentially god-like detection abilities... This would actually simulate human skills better in the AI that particular situation (going through the forest slowly). As it is, sneaking through the forest slowly I still get shot and killed lots by the "AI" I am unable to see or detect. It would simply make my AI skill level closer to my own (and I am Not a crappy player, not the best either). Thats why multiple "Hold Fire" options would be the Ideal Solution.

That way, You would have it the way you like, He/She/Everyone else has it they way they like and you can choose which method of Hold Fire is best suited for each particular situation. That could all be accomplished with only 3 or 4 different modes for "Hold Fire" I am pretty sure!

Do you play any Co-Op missions Variable? If you do, and would be interested in setting up a game sometime please feel free to pop me a private message.

Cheers!

Off to bed now!

[Variable 322]

Well thats the nice thing about life, you do not have to agree on anything that anyone else thinks, says or feels. However, in my very humble opinion your choice to disagree is wrong, lol! Were you there playing the mission with me (I wish you were, at least I'd have a useful team mate then)? Were you there to experience what I went through (you could have helped me shoot my AI squad moments after they screwed up the mission)? Nope you were not there, so feel free to not agree, but it makes absolutely no sense to me how someone can disagree with someone elses experience that they themselves did not experience.

I don't disagree with you regarding what happened (i.e AI opened fire). I was only trying to explain WHY your AI opened fire. My disagreement is about what should be expected from the AI when it is detected. Because AI does not just arbitrary overrules the hold fire command, it does that only when it sees (or senses due to AI broken detection capabilities) an enemy that detected it. That's just a fact.

Regarding the "Fire" command - This orders the AI to fire only at the unit it targets, and immediately assume hold fire right after.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Variable

[oukej 2910]

The "self proclaimed danger mode" needs to go, that's for sure. It was discussed in this thread in details and it has been confirmed that the devs are concerned about it too. However, no confirmation has been given regarding any intentions or efforts made or plans to fix it.

There are researches going on. Concerned is a soft word.

Thats why multiple "Hold Fire" options would be the Ideal Solution.

I wouldn't say so, things need to be kept simple, easy and fast to reach. "Hold Fire" & "Return Fire" ROE modes do however make sense. I can imagine situations when you don't want the AI to return fire at all (retreating in the dark and giving up positions by the muzzleflashes ...)