AI Discussion (dev branch)

[chrisb 196]

I tried vanilla AI for the latest update, to keep in tune with AI progress. They are the best vanilla AI for the series that I have played with, they seek cover reasonably well, seem not to rush as much, teamwork (within a team, not team to team) is pretty good on the whole, stance choice is not too bad.

Teamwork between teams could be a lot better, especially when in close proximity to one another, thinking either side of a road etc. I have seen with vanilla AI, one team fully engage with the enemy, whilst another team just mtrs away, hangs back, not helping at all. Seems basic things are missing somehow (communication).

The need to endlessly press forward is de'press'ing, it leads to many dead in no time, which is not real at all for this type of scenario (just ground troops). There is little in the way of thinking going on, or the impression of thinking. Hold back in cover, plan, instead of rushing forward WW1 style without a plan it seems.

The stance would be better if changed when hearing nearby gunfire sound, i.e. go crouched and into cover first (hard cover if pos), for a short time before investigating. They still seem to be oblivious to this for some reason and tend to just stand around. I’m talking about nearby gunfire, not directed at them, but heard locally, not way off in the distance.

Simple things like this, although I’m not saying simple to sort out, but simple visually, breaks belief instantly, which is a shame. That's where modded gets the upper hand, simple things they do, make a big difference for believing them in-game. The more they can be seen to react to situations, the more the player will relax and believe they are a real threat or great teammates to have around.

Still, they're improving, vanilla AI, so that's to be applauded.:)

[Tonci87 163]

So far it seems the subordinate's disobedience (movement, target acquisition, in combat behavior) and driving are the most pressing issues, right?

The driving is complicated in regard to different causes (and their combinations) of bugs - from vehicle configuration, map data, dynamic circumstances to AI behavior itself, precision and time.

For both, even though the issues may seem obvious, we are gathering the data and isolated situations. With the help of our fresh reinforcement Iceman we've categorized the AI stuff in feedback tracker a bit more and there is also a path-finding primary report here http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=18340

For exact spots on Altis and Stratis there's a ticket here: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=18324

Thanks, I will definately report some spots were the AI Drivers get stuck.

And done

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=18324#c70505

Edited May 8, 2014 by Tonci87

[old_painless 183]

So far it seems the subordinate's disobedience (movement, target acquisition, in combat behavior) and driving are the most pressing issues, right?

Yes. Target acquisition is particularly bad for AT troops under your command. Several threads here has examples. And for driving please do not just consider tickets for one vehicle having problems, but also include convoy style movements.

Very nice that these issues get attention now - keep it up :)

Edited May 11, 2014 by Old_Painless

[Bouben 3]

So far it seems the subordinate's disobedience (movement, target acquisition, in combat behavior) and driving are the most pressing issues, right?

The driving is complicated in regard to different causes (and their combinations) of bugs - from vehicle configuration, map data, dynamic circumstances to AI behavior itself, precision and time.

Yes, these are definitely serious AI issues so you can't go wrong giving them high priority.

[MavericK96 0]

The next issue in line for me would be the action menu. It's not purely an AI issue but it reflects heavily on commanding AI, and it seems like a simple issue in terms of complexity (though maybe I'm wrong). Please put the more common commands for the AI, rearm and inventory, at the beginning of the action menu list, and not at the end of it. It requires the player to scroll through sometimes 10 pages of actions just to get to these options, which are ALWAYS at the end.

Agreed, please look into this.

[mjolnir66 48]

I feel the AI would be massively improved and much more lifelike if there were a set of drills that executed roughly the same way every time something happened. For example, combat dismounts from vehicles. From an armoured vechile, if they were to immediately spread out in a line on one side of the vehicle, facing the same direction as the vehicle itsel, or from a helicopter if they were to immediately form a circle facing outwards around it. Maybe even as far as actual group bounding, with half the section/team moving at a time.

[Furret 0]

I feel the AI would be massively improved and much more lifelike if there were a set of drills that executed roughly the same way every time something happened. For example, combat dismounts from vehicles. From an armoured vechile, if they were to immediately spread out in a line on one side of the vehicle, facing the same direction as the vehicle itsel, or from a helicopter if they were to immediately form a circle facing outwards around it. Maybe even as far as actual group bounding, with half the section/team moving at a time.

What if they dismount from the vehicle and the side they line up on is blocked? what if both sides are blocked? what if the side they line up on is facing an enemy position?

[xendance 3]

What if they dismount from the vehicle and the side they line up on is blocked? what if both sides are blocked? what if the side they line up on is facing an enemy position?

Should be rather trivial to do a trace from the formation start to formation end and see if it intersects with anything.

And the vehicle commander is the one who tells them to which side to dismount, if he doesn't know that there are enemies on the left side and says "dismount to the left"... well, that's just realistic. If it becomes a problem, commander enemy detection should be tweaked rather than the dismount procedure.

[katipo66 94]

I tried vanilla AI for the latest update, to keep in tune with AI progress. They are the best vanilla AI for the series that I have played with, they seek cover reasonably well, seem not to rush as much, teamwork (within a team, not team to team) is pretty good on the whole, stance choice is not too bad.

Right, time to take dev branch for another spin...

The need to endlessly press forward is de'press'ing, it leads to many dead in no time, which is not real at all for this type of scenario (just ground troops). There is little in the way of thinking going on, or the impression of thinking. Hold back in cover, plan, instead of rushing forward WW1 style without a plan it seems.

From the little understanding I have of the AI complexities and simple tests I've done I believe that AI"s first and main priority is fulfilling their waypoint (sorry if im stating the obvious) the waypoint has priority over everything, even if it means leaving perfectly good cover in the middle of a firefight, The illusion may be that they are trying to get better position for attacking but actually it's only the waypoint that maybe behind you they are interested in. I think this is for gameplay reasons? Just guessing but it's very depressing indeed to know that when fighting the AI they are not "interested" in the firefight as such and will leave perfectly good cover to run across an open field to die, one at a time.

Maybe waypoints could have some priority rating or something?

It would be nice if their waypoints were temporarily disabled when contact made and re-enabled when the all clear is given, even with AI mods like bCombat which do a great job of keeping them low cannot however stop the waypoint priority they seem to have... Maybe I'm talking rubbish and someone could enlighten me on what's really going on but I'm sure this is the case?

Simple things like this, although I’m not saying simple to sort out, but simple visually, breaks belief instantly, which is a shame. That's where modded gets the upper hand, simple things they do, make a big difference for believing them in-game. The more they can be seen to react to situations, the more the player will relax and believe they are a real threat or great teammates to have around.

Fully agree here, the best part of the game for me is seeing AI do believable stuff, it doesn't have to be 100% realistic to real life, but seeing "Simple" things like AI scramble for cover on initial contact is awesome, if only they could stay behind cover and returned fire!

But I guess thinking it through a bit more it's not actually that simple, they would need to consider ammo or the ability to conserve ammo, Maybe bi have something up there sleeve with the introduction of ammo bearers? And probably many other things to consider in terms of support, I guess it's hard to mimic reality when in reality you wouldn't have isolated groups wandering around a battlefield the way they can do in Arma, lots depending on mission maker, mission type and mission design etc..

[bravo409 13]

I think it was just laziness in BIS part because the AI can be smart like we all want just look at brothers in arms series, how the ai reacted to contact and suppressing they would stay in cover when suppressed and give fire to counter act the suppressing hoping to regain the suppressed state they are in at that point. They would send a flanking team to flank if you moved to different places and they would watch your moves and counter that with either a attack or push back if they know they are in trouble. This was a game that came out during the first arma series and then you have Operation Flashpoint dragon rising the ai would be scared and run to cover you could hear the PLA soldier if close to you scared when he knows he is in danger or coming up on to you and, or about to enter the house your in. This showed me that there was some real fear they felt where as arma its just run kill take cover for a sec ok time to run kill and not showing any fear toward the enemy even when they are suppressed. This is what arma series has lacked is the fear of being shot or killed again DR came close to that yes they had there issues but the FPS was nice and smooth where as fps plays a vital role in the arma series where you have to have good fps. Cause if its lower then 30 you get bad AI results. Bcombat AI mod has fixed the suppressed issue some what but I think lacks the fear that they should have but he is getting close to getting right. To me FAB should be awarded a game AI metal or job for what things he has accomplished with his AI mod.

[Fireball 16]

Since that overhaul of the AI difficulty settings (removal of separate difficulty sliders and Super AI) the AI accuracy is still too high in all including the lowest preset. I currently have to teach DS admins on how to provision an .Arma3Profile using custom difficulty class definitions, so AI doesn't one-shot you the very instance they spot you, across 200+ meters.

Accuracy as low as 0.2 make sense eventually as far my tests go; skill may be higher (such as 0.5). There is certainly something wrong...some hyperbolic attenuation of accuracy within the slider range.

[blackjacktom 10]

Is there any plan to change the speed at which AT soldiers fire. At the moment they can fire another missile almost immediately after the first.

[papy.rabbit.08 0]

I got an e-mail saying this issue got closed because it was "obselet"...

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=4512

I mean is it a joke? Same thing with this one: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3233

I've never seen anything like this... Problem too boring to fix, let's just call it obselet and close it, we'll see what happens.

[Tankbuster 1747]

I've just had a ticket closed as 'obsolete' too. What it really means is ' no-one has looked at this' and perhaps it'll just go away if we ignore it.

[bis_iceman 7384]

I got an e-mail saying this issue got closed because it was "obselet"...

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=4512

I mean is it a joke? Same thing with this one: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3233

I've never seen anything like this... Problem too boring to fix, let's just call it obselet and close it, we'll see what happens.

Hi, these issues were closed by mistake by one of our (new) FT moderators. I spoke with him about it to prevent such mistakes in the future and also reopened the tickets you mentioned.

[papy.rabbit.08 0]

Hi, these issues were closed by mistake by one of our (new) FT moderators. I spoke with him about it to prevent such mistakes in the future and also reopened the tickets you mentioned.

Ok, thank you then!

[Tankbuster 1747]

Hi, these issues were closed by mistake by one of our (new) FT moderators. I spoke with him about it to prevent such mistakes in the future and also reopened the tickets you mentioned.

You closed one of mine with the same reason.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=15234

[msy 22]

In the latest branch the AI are still nothing but auto headshot aimbot hacker.

[Variable 322]

In the latest branch the AI are still nothing but auto headshot aimbot hacker.

What SkillAI and precisionAI settings do you have?

[msy 22]

What SkillAI and precisionAI settings do you have?

ALL are set by default normal difficulty without MODs and I only play the showcase "combined arms" to test AI.

And, hurr hurr, what a useless chopper, what a pity APC, what a fking auto-headshot aimbot footmen AI.

[Variable 322]

ALL are set by default normal difficulty without MODs and I only play the showcase "combined arms" to test AI.

And, hurr hurr, what a useless chopper, what a pity APC, what a fking auto-headshot aimbot footmen AI.

Try to set custom parameters skillAI=7.25 precisionAI=0.4

Should make the AI feel more natural.

[SilentSpike 84]

I can't tell for certain, but it seems like when remote controlling a unit as zeus (must be using a unit that has access to zeus rather than the logic unit) any opposing AI will know the location of your true character if you alert them with a remote controlled one. I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has experienced similar behavior.

[oukej 2911]

I can't tell for certain, but it seems like when remote controlling a unit as zeus (must be using a unit that has access to zeus rather than the logic unit) any opposing AI will know the location of your true character if you alert them with a remote controlled one. I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has experienced similar behavior.

Quickly tested (player, owner of Zeus module, creates an unit, takes control of it via RC, engages one enemy behind a corner and lets the RC unit get killed) and have to disclaim - the enemy AI had no clue about the player.

But there still could be a specific case where this would happen

[Variable 322]

Quickly tested (player, owner of Zeus module, creates an unit, takes control of it via RC, engages one enemy behind a corner and lets the RC unit get killed) and have to disclaim - the enemy AI had no clue about the player.

But there still could be a specific case where this would happen

Maybe it has some relation with the age old bug that makes the enemy AI know about you immediately once you load a saved game.

[SilentSpike 84]

Quickly tested (player, owner of Zeus module, creates an unit, takes control of it via RC, engages one enemy behind a corner and lets the RC unit get killed) and have to disclaim - the enemy AI had no clue about the player.

But there still could be a specific case where this would happen

Thanks for checking it out, if I find a scenario again where it does seem like it's happening then I'll do my best to get a repro.