AI Discussion (dev branch)

[k0rd 3]

Maybe if there are no enemies in sight, but i just tried it, and as long as they have a unit in direct LOS they will pretty much stay where they are until the fight is over, or they are dead.

yeah once the core fsms take over, there is nothing you can do :)

[edit] the danger fsm has a queue of detected events, it is possible that your waypoint may get processed at some point - i don't really know how danger events are prioritized and how that relates to commanded waypoints or editor waypoints

Edited April 28, 2014 by k0rd
additional text

[Bouben 3]

Maybe if there are no enemies in sight, but i just tried it, and as long as they have a unit in direct LOS they will pretty much stay where they are until the fight is over, or they are dead.

Not true. I have tested it recently on the latest DEV branch and they move without stopping. Simply sprinting even in front of an enemy unit. No problem at all. No mods of course.

Different situation begins when the moving unit gets under fire and starts to look for a target. Then it will stop and scan - but even then they are not ignoring your move orders as they will wait a bit and then move in full speed to the ordered position but avoiding the direct path if it means to run into enemy fire. Hold fire also helps.

Enemy presence itself and combat mode itself does not prevent a unit with a move order to move. That's what I am trying to explain here.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Bouben

[k0rd 3]

Not true. I have tested it recently on the latest DEV branch and they move without stopping. Simply sprinting even in front of an enemy unit. No problem at all. No mods of course.

Different situation begins when the moving unit gets under fire and starts to look for a target - but even then they are not ignoring your move orders - they will wait a bit and then move in full speed to the ordered position. Hold fire also helps. Then it will stop and scan but enemy presence itself and combat mode itself does not prevent a unit with a move order to move. That's what I am trying to explain here.

Hi - yes, after the danger queue is processed, the unit will continue to move to the waypoint. We are, however, talking about overriding the core danger behavior, right? Or at least be able to switch it off temporarily but retain some brains to carry out the orders?

[Bouben 3]

Hi - yes, after the danger queue is processed, the unit will continue to move to the waypoint. We are, however, talking about overriding the core danger behavior, right? Or at least be able to switch it off temporarily but retain some brains to carry out the orders?

No, I am talking about movement during the combat mode. That means enemy in sight, bullets flying around. I can still order my units to move rapidly (without stop and go behaviour) while under fire.

[k0rd 3]

No, I am talking about movement during the combat mode. That means enemy in sight, bullets flying around. I can still order my units to move rapidly while under fire.

combat mode doesn't mean enemies in sight necessarily, of course you can move in combat mode. We are talking about giving orders while the unit is under direct threat - like while being actively suppressed, not just when they are combat mode RED.

[Bouben 3]

combat mode doesn't mean enemies in sight necessarily, of course you can move in combat mode. We are talking about giving orders while the unit is under direct threat - like while being actively suppressed, not just when they are combat mode RED.

I am talking about units under fire. Is that a direct thread enough for you? :-)

[k0rd 3]

I am talking about units under fire. Is that a direct thread enough for you? :-)

if it is accurate fire, then yes, that should do it.

[.kju 3244]

Combat behavior is not the same as combat mode.

The one you set as group leader, the other the engine controls solely.

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/setBehaviour

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/setCombatMode

AI under fire switch to combat mode automatically and only leaves after a long time out.

I think its not related to combat mode red internally, but i am not sure as we don't know what internally is happening.

The fact is though that you loose control over the AI basically during this time.

[Bouben 3]

;2677450']Combat behavior is not the same as combat mode.

The one you set as group leader' date=' the other the engine controls solely.

[url']https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/setBehaviour[/url]

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/setCombatMode

AI under fire switch to combat mode automatically and only leaves after a long time out.

I think its not related to combat mode red internally, but i am not sure as we don't know what internally is happening.

The fact is though that you loose control over the AI basically during this time.

And my point is that they can be controlled better than you guys state. Anyway, I definitely agree with all of you that things could be made better and more simple to understand. However, I don't agree with reverting to the basic OFP AI behaviour.

[ProfTournesol 956]

And my point is that they can be controlled better than you guys state. Anyway, I definitely agree with all of you that things could be made better and more simple to understand. However, I don't agree with reverting to the basic OFP AI behaviour.

The question is : despite being much more complex than what it was in OFP, is it still more effective or even enjoyable ?

[k0rd 3]

However, I don't agree with reverting to the basic OFP AI behaviour.

I don't either, but I think danger events should be able to either

a) have some kind of temporary "off" button

or

b) have another sort of low-level function (or type of waypoint) that is even a higher priority than the core danger queue

[NeMeSiS 11]

Not true. I have tested it recently on the latest DEV branch and they move without stopping. Simply sprinting even in front of an enemy unit. No problem at all. No mods of course.

Different situation begins when the moving unit gets under fire and starts to look for a target. Then it will stop and scan - but even then they are not ignoring your move orders as they will wait a bit and then move in full speed to the ordered position but avoiding the direct path if it means to run into enemy fire. Hold fire also helps.

Enemy presence itself and combat mode itself does not prevent a unit with a move order to move. That's what I am trying to explain here.

Well, i just decided to make my problem clear by polluting youtube with another badly edited ArmA AI video. :)

Note: @TPW_MODS was running while recording. I tested it afterwards without any addons and it made no difference, but i couldnt be bothered to record again.

EDIT: Video will be up in a few minutes.

Edited April 28, 2014 by NeMeSiS

[Variable 322]

I can still order my units to move rapidly (without stop and go behaviour) while under fire.

We must be talking about a different games, then. As you can see, all of us except you have different interpretation of what "rapidly" means.

[Bouben 3]

The question is : despite being much more complex than what it was in OFP, is it still more effective or even enjoyable ?

Good question. For me, definitely more enjoyable and effective with bCombat which can make use of the new micro AI features. Vanilla AI needs a lot of work and basically, it sucks a lot. I have played vanilla OFP:R not too long ago and it was still great fun so you have a strong point there.

EDIT for others:

I agree that forcing a whole group to run is much more difficult than forcing a single subordinate. I definitely agree there should be a retreat command or something similar.

[k0rd 3]

We must be talking about a different games, then. As you can see, all of us except you have different interpretation of what "rapidly" means.

If he doesn't notice it and it doesn't affect his gameplay, I am glad for him. I have a feeling that he just never had the need for the fine control that we are requesting and therefore never noticed the engine takeover that happens.

[Bouben 3]

We must be talking about a different games, then. As you can see, all of us except you have different interpretation of what "rapidly" means.

May be, buddy. I am mostly just affraid of your needs to drastically reduce AI complexity to the OFP levels.

---------- Post added at 20:41 ---------- Previous post was at 20:38 ----------

If he doesn't notice it and it doesn't affect his gameplay, I am glad for him. I have a feeling that he just never had the need for the fine control that we are requesting and therefore never noticed the engine takeover that happens.

Buddy, my main motivation to play the series is testing the AI since 2001. While I am not a programmer, believe me that I am not a rookie in the game and know what AI does in various situations. Also, I don't deny there are problems. There are. But maybe you should try to pinpoint them more exactly in specific situations.

[Variable 322]

May be, buddy. I am mostly just affraid of your needs to drastically reduce AI complexity to the OFP levels.

What gave you that impression?

[Bouben 3]

Guys, I believe I have found a workaround for non-existing retreat/rapid-move command.

The key is to order to move every single man in your squad separately. This will neutralize the need to use bounding overwatch routine.

Is anyone here able to make a small mod that would do that? You would choose the whole group and give them "Rapid Move" order and the mod would then separate all the move orders to each of the subordinates in your squad. That seems to work very well when I tested it recently. The mod could also force the "never fire" behaviour until the orded is executed (units are on the position).

EDIT: The most problematic units are machinegunners that often refuse to move at all. They want to suppress the enemy at all costs. But you can still save the most of your squad this way and machinegunners can be forced to move by "Retrun to formation" and "Diamond formation" commands. "Hold fire" command seems to be obligatory.

EDIT2: I believe that fabrizio_T uses similar technique in his bCombat mod. From his config.sqf:

// Description: fast movement

// Triggered: if active and destination is at medium distance (50-500m.)

// Effect: formation is breaked, units move individually towards destination picking different routes and using cover

// Known issues: units may sometimes bunch at destination

bcombat_allow_fast_move = true; // (Boolean) Toggle feature on / off

EDIT3: OK, fabrizio's technique does not bring the same results as manually ordering every single subordinate in your group.

What do you think?

---------- Post added at 20:59 ---------- Previous post was at 20:59 ----------

What gave you that impression?

You in plural and generally.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Bouben

[k0rd 3]

May be, buddy. I am mostly just affraid of your needs to drastically reduce AI complexity to the OFP levels.

---------- Post added at 20:41 ---------- Previous post was at 20:38 ----------

Buddy, my main motivation to play the series is testing the AI since 2001. While I am not a programmer, believe me that I am not a rookie in the game and know what AI does in various situations. Also, I don't deny there are problems. There are. But maybe you should try to pinpoint them more exactly in specific situations.

taking away manual control from the user and putting the AI into automatic routines is not "complexity"

Also, yes you are denying that there are problems - and for someone who says that their whole motivation is AI testing, I'm surprised that you are ok that you know what AI does in various situations, this is the antithesis of complexity. I should be able to order my AI units to do things that you wouldn't expect.

If you don't have a problem with commanding units under fire, I suggest that you are not coming up with very novel strategies.

[Bouben 3]

taking away manual control from the user and putting the AI into automatic routines is not "complexity"

Also, yes you are denying that there are problems - and for someone who says that their whole motivation is AI testing, I'm surprised that you are ok that you know what AI does in various situations, this is the antithesis of complexity. I should be able to order my AI units to do things that you wouldn't expect.

If you don't have a problem with commanding units under fire, I suggest that you are not coming up with very novel strategies.

Man, it would be cool if you read all the stuff I have written. You may find out that we are not too far from each other. Also, I am not OK with vanilla AI at all. I think it sucks quite heavily. I just try to balance your (plural) radical and generalising opinions. Thanks.

Anyway, I suggested a workaround that could work until BIS does something themselves. You can read it if you want...

Also, for sake of efficiency, I will continue to behave as if no novel-strategies-elitist presumption was written.

Also, I didn't say that AI is my whole motivation. I said it is my main motivation. I am also a normal gamer.

---------- Post added at 22:13 ---------- Previous post was at 22:01 ----------

Well, i just decided to make my problem clear by polluting youtube with another badly edited ArmA AI video. :)

Note: @TPW_MODS was running while recording. I tested it afterwards without any addons and it made no difference, but i couldnt be bothered to record again.

EDIT: Video will be up in a few minutes.

Yes, if you separate them and give each soldiers his own "move" command and "hold fire" on top of it, everyone, apart from machinegunners, would move quite rapidly. You can try that.

More in my workaround suggestion.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Bouben

[NeMeSiS 11]

Yes, if you separate them and give each soldiers his own "move" command and "hold fire" on top of it, everyone, apart from machinegunners, would move quite rapidly. You can try that.

More in my workaround suggestion.

It works somewhat okayish when i hold fire and move every unit individually. Unfortunately that does not work at all in practice, since noone has time to micromanage every unit when they are trying to move units in combat.

Unrelated sidenote: When was the 'hold fire' command changed to make units actually hold fire, even when they are being shot at? I much prefer the old implementation where they would start shooting once detected, even though half the community did not understood that is how it worked.

[Bouben 3]

It works somewhat okayish when i hold fire and move every unit individually. Unfortunately that does not work at all in practice, since noone has time to micromanage every unit when they are trying to move units in combat.

Unrelated sidenote: When was the 'hold fire' command changed to make units actually hold fire, even when they are being shot at? I much prefer the old implementation where they would start shooting once detected, even though half the community did not understood that is how it worked.

The point of the workaround suggested was that somebody would mod it in such way that it would be a custom-single click command similar to classsic "move" command. All the work would be made automatically.

And yes, I was also surprised by the behaviour of the "hold fire" command. Dunno if I like it or not though. I would prefer two types of the "hold fire" command.

[Variable 322]

Guys, I believe I have found a workaround for non-existing retreat/rapid-move command.

The key is to order to move every single man in your squad separately. This will neutralize the need to use bounding overwatch routine.

Been there, done that. It's like the magic "order them into a column and stop whining" mantra. It helps just a little bit.

Bouben, no one wants OFP's AI level back. We just want to AI to be more responsive under fire. That's it.

[Bouben 3]

Been there, done that. It's like the magic "order them into a column and stop whining" mantra. It helps just a little bit.

Bouben, no one wants OFP's AI level back. We just want to AI to be more responsive under fire. That's it.

Cool. Btw I don't want you to stop whining. I don't think anyone is whining here, so all cool.

A mod based on the workaround would be nice anyway.

[.kju 3244]

@ NeMeSiS

This would be needed a squad leader command:

"BLUE" (Never fire)

When hostile units are detected, they will track them, but will never fire back, even when fired upon.

This mode can only be set through the editor or script. No in-game commands to subordinates can set them to combat mode Blue.

Ref:

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Mission_Editor:_Waypoints#Combat_Mode

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA:_AI_Combat_Modes

---

To solve / at least mitigate the unresponsive subordinate AI, BI would just have to make careless (like) mode available to the group leader.

A further improvement if one could set the speed the units should move, like one can with scripting or in the editor.

Careless - Careless behaviour will cause the group move and behave in a very non-combat manner. The group will form into a Compact Column like formation, where each unit will directly follow the man in front rather than moving in a formation. Soldiers will carry their weapons in safe position (rifles across body, pistols holstered) and walk slowly. Infantry will not fire on enemy targets (unless they have wounded legs), but vehicles will still fire on enemies. Groups in careless mode do not switch to a more alert mode if enemies are encountered. All unit types show preference moving along roads whenever possible.

Probably it would be even a better default to have AI to auto switch to "careless" (like) when ordered into a vehicle or a medic to heal someone

to do this straight away.

Best case one would want to be able to mix it, like if the AI should use cover or go the most direct route when retreating/moving.