AI Discussion (dev branch)

[Tonci87 163]

You know that setting the video to private will not help your cause? One workaround I have is to shoot them.

With a pistol in the foot. then let the medic heal them. Usually this helps to make them unstuck

[tortuosit 486]

With a pistol in the foot. then let the medic heal them. Usually this helps to make them unstuck

Haha, interesting. Yes, I also sometimes experience soldiers who do not respond, blind and deaf... :D

[bonchie 39]

You know that setting the video to private will not help your cause? One workaround I have is to shoot them.

With a pistol in the foot. then let the medic heal them. Usually this helps to make them unstuck

Forgot to hit publish on the video.

But I did try shooting him shortly after stopping the video and running through every command conceivable. Didn't make a difference. I just ended up killing him so I didn't have to hear him ask me where I am constantly.

[tortuosit 486]

I just ended up killing him so I didn't have to hear him ask me where I am constantly.

Yes - but kill a second one of them and they are your enemy...

[Tonci87 163]

Forgot to hit publish on the video.

But I did try shooting him shortly after stopping the video and running through every command conceivable. Didn't make a difference. I just ended up killing him so I didn't have to hear him ask me where I am constantly.

Don´t forget to heal him yourself or have a medic do it. Usually this should work. otherwise you have to revert to an earlier save

[pils 49]

I played a lot of large scale Multiplayer layouts with AI lately (BECTI + variations) and these are my Top 3 issues which need improvements:

1. Driving skills. AIs still get stuck a lot, crash their vehicles a lot, run over friendlies and crash into friendlies. And imho AI should prefer roads with any kind of vehicle.

2. Reaction time and spotting ability. Even on low skills reaction time and spotting ability should be better. (It just doesn't feel right when your AI or enemy AI needs like 5 seconds to react to something going on just in front of him.) Even on low skills, AI should engage several targets faster after each other, maybe switch targets while keep on firing and fire more when engaging several targets (e.g. a group of infantry just in front).

3. AI as gunner/commander in vehicles. When gunner or commander in a vehicle, AI spotting skills should be much higher - also on larger distances (reflecting the fact they're using highly effective IR-optics!). AI in general should engage any targets at much higher distances. Imho, skill should have mainly impact on their accuracy and balancing should be mainly established by using accurancy.

I really like the fact the AI is firing more than before, using supressive fire and continues firing even when you take some quick cover. That's how it should be and really already feels realistic and immersive!

I'm not into programing so I can't point things out exactly, this is just how it feels for me playing the game. But I can imagine progaming AI in such an open, variable environment must be extremely difficult and complex.

[maturin 12]

This happened literally every mission in the win episode. Sometimes one guy, sometimes three or four.

I cycled through as many commands as I could and nothing seems to "unstick" them.

This has been a problem since OFP to varying degrees (including Iron Front). At one point does this get fixed or at least a good explanation given? Or even a work around?

This problem comes and goes with various A3 builds. It stopped me from playing entirely at one point.

[bonham 10]

May I bring attention to an issue that bothers me and probably a few other people as well?

Whenever an AI gunner fires an automatic vehicle weapon (HMG, GMG, diff. cannons) and eliminates a target, the gunner immediately aims at a neutral position (facing forward) or at a new target while he finishes firing the salvo (and the AI always fires these weapons in salvos). This leads to friendly fire incidents, increased collateral damage and obviously ammo being wasted.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13217

Notice that the AI knows the exact millisecond when an enemy unit has been eliminated. To a human this behavior seems 100% unnatural. It's doesn't resemble suppressive fire nor aimed fire. I wonder if that can be improved. Maybe let the AI aim a little longer at the target after it has been eliminated or teach the AI to cease fire once the target is down.

[Necramonium 10]

I dont know if it has been mentioned, but i dont feel like going through over 188 pages, :P, but snipers are pretty much useless for long range engagements, when you are over 400 meters away, they will not engage you! So whats the purpose of AI having snipers if they engage enemies on the same range as normal foot soldiers!

[msy 22]

I dont know if it has been mentioned, but i dont feel like going through over 188 pages, :P, but snipers are pretty much useless for long range engagements, when you are over 400 meters away, they will not engage you! So whats the purpose of AI having snipers if they engage enemies on the same range as normal foot soldiers!

A true sniper should not join the regular fireteam. They should do some scout work and be an assassin. Thus sniper in the mission should be a scripted NPC role or played by player himself.

[oldy41 61]

May I bring attention to an issue that bothers me and probably a few other people as well?

Whenever an AI gunner fires an automatic vehicle weapon (HMG, GMG, diff. cannons) and eliminates a target, the gunner immediately aims at a neutral position (facing forward) or at a new target while he finishes firing the salvo (and the AI always fires these weapons in salvos). This leads to friendly fire incidents, increased collateral damage and obviously ammo being wasted.

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=13217

Notice that the AI knows the exact millisecond when an enemy unit has been eliminated. To a human this behavior seems 100% unnatural. It's doesn't resemble suppressive fire nor aimed fire. I wonder if that can be improved. Maybe let the AI aim a little longer at the target after it has been eliminated or teach the AI to cease fire once the target is down.

This bug has been reported again and again.

But I think your suggestion might be the basis for a rather simple solution, which would also increase immersion significantly. So if AI would need at least a few more seconds before knowing the death of a target and before turning attention to other tasks might help a lot.

I am always playing with TPW_FALL, which knocks infantry to the ground when hit by a bullet. So a human player can not easily decide, whether a target is down for good or whether it will rise again after a while. But my AI team mates immediately and magically report the death of the target if was hit lethally, which really breaks immersion.

[papy.rabbit.08 0]

Just before stop playing Arma 3 for a moment, I just wanted to show why...

It happened 5x times, I recorded the last one. The others 4 times, the guy even had the AT weapon ready and when he saw the tank, he thought: "Oh maybe too big, let's change for the rifle". Changed weapon and start shooting.

This was too much for me. I don't understand why AI have AT weapons with them... Useless.

[sgtsev3n 12]

the AI is really fucked up in this game. we can discuss the issuses here from day to day, i believe that nothing will be changed.

dont know why BI do not want to fix the AI also i think that the AI needs a total rework and not a few bug fix and all is good.

[CaptainObvious 95]

dont know why BI do not want to fix the AI

Nice one buddy :)

OPREPs and SITREPs are there for a reason, read them.

[oukej 2910]

@DEVS please just let us know what we can do to help fix this.

1. a simple, clean, isolated, reliable bug repro mission, single AI or just as few as possible
   
2. https://www.bistudio.com/english/careers
   

I've mentioned no drastical AI changes in the OPREP, but that does not mean no bug-fixing - we'll do that as long as we actively support and improve Arma 3 (and we will for quite some time... you know us;))

And in fact bug-fixi​ng the AI can never be a simple thing and sometimes to fix a seemingly simple bug a complex solution has to be made.

Quickly about the mentioned....

• Driving and pathfinding - issues shared by engine AI, vehicle configuration and the map. Ideally ping us about an exact location. Since early access phase Mr.Klamacz has implemented a safe-check so the AI at least tries to unstuck itself even if it thinks it shouldn't be stuck at all. Should help in some situations, but crashing still damages the vehicle.
  It goes also with the performance, more detailed resolution to better navigate thru narrow streets would steal a lot of it. And wider streets would be less appealing and less useful for infantry combat. Indeterministic AI had to learn to drive and more importantly break and steer with less deterministic/more complex physics of the vehicles. Alltogether we are balancing on a thin line and doing trade-offs. Isolated issues help us a lot to get it right.
  
• Firing at distance - dependable on the weapon/optics' config. Snipers should not have problems to kill a target on 1km once they know about it. Riflemen have much lower engagement ranges.
  
• Getting stuck - can still be some missed animation issue, we are trying to catch em all
  
• Target selection/priorization - there are known issues, partly between config-defined cost of a target and the AI decisions themselves. Interestingly it was the same situation as the one showed on the vid which has initially led to more investigation :) Situation on the video is more or less OK - the target tank's crew is turned out and targetting the tank means "target the crew" for the AI. The AI may not recognize the turned out crew first, so it chooses an AT (at first it is just an armored target). Knowing more details it decides to try to take out the crew. (Players would hate if AI was about to destroy everything with an AT especially if they wanted to steal the vehicle...). It fails, crew, now in danger turns in, and our AT AI finally uses the tube. However, because there are mutliple targets in this area, it takes the AI some time to choose and fire at on, looks confused, occasionally fires and misses completely. Despite being directly ordered by the player to engage one specific target.
  

Edited March 29, 2014 by oukej

[papy.rabbit.08 0]

Thanks for details! It makes things more clear.

[zimms 22]

Very good post, thanks.

I think what makes the AI look stupid is the lack of communication. If it was another player, he would just say "I'll try to take out the crew." Making the AI more talkative would be a huge project and you'd still have to keep in mind to not make them spam too much. Maybe it would be worth looking into, since now after the campaign and soon Zeus DLC there would be more work power available again.

Also a command "Destroy vehicle" would be great for these situation. Probably this should be the default and "Target crew" has to be ordered.

[msy 22]

1. a simple, clean, isolated, reliable bug repro mission, single AI or just as few as possible
   
2. https://www.bistudio.com/english/careers
   

I've mentioned no drastical AI changes in the OPREP, but that does not mean no bug-fixing - we'll do that as long as we actively support and improve Arma 3 (and we will for quite some time... you know us;))

And in fact bug-fixi​ng the AI can never be a simple thing and sometimes to fix a seemingly simple bug a complex solution has to be made.

Quickly about the mentioned....

• Driving and pathfinding - issues shared by engine AI, vehicle configuration and the map. Ideally ping us about an exact location. Since early access phase Mr.Klamacz has implemented a safe-check so the AI at least tries to unstuck itself even if it thinks it shouldn't be stuck at all. Should help in some situations, but crashing still damages the vehicle.
  It goes also with the performance, more detailed resolution to better navigate thru narrow streets would steal a lot of it. And wider streets would be less appealing and less useful for infantry combat. Indeterministic AI had to learn to drive and more importantly break and steer with less deterministic/more complex physics of the vehicles. Alltogether we are balancing on a thin line and doing trade-offs. Isolated issues help us a lot to get it right.
  
• Firing at distance - dependable on the weapon/optics' config. Snipers should not have problems to kill a target on 1km once they know about it. Riflemen have much lower engagement ranges.
  
• Getting stuck - can still be some missed animation issue, we are trying to catch em all
  
• Target selection/priorization - there are known issues, partly between config-defined cost of a target and the AI decisions themselves. Interestingly it was the same situation as the one showed on the vid which has initially led to more investigation :) Situation on the video is more or less OK - the target tank's crew is turned out and targetting the tank means "target the crew" for the AI. The AI may not recognize the turned out crew first, so it chooses an AT (at first it is just an armored target). Knowing more details it decides to try to take out the crew. (Players would hate if AI was about to destroy everything with an AT especially if they wanted to steal the vehicle...). It fails, crew, now in danger turns in, and our AT AI finally uses the tube. However, because there are mutliple targets in this area, it takes the AI some time to choose and fire at on, looks confused, occasionally fires and misses completely. Despite being directly ordered by the player to engage one specific target.
  

First of all, please inhance the executive ability of AI! Make them listen to me and do what I say. So, when I see they are engaging against the more powerful enemies I say `-1-1 and they must quickly follow me and retreat with me.

[Variable 322]

Make them listen to me and do what I say. So, when I see they are engaging against the more powerful enemies I say `-1-1 and they must quickly follow me and retreat with me.

This is really the number one issue with the AI. Oukej, are there any plans to fix that?

[kremator 1065]

Agree that when a human leader says for them to do something, they do it without question!

[Tonci87 163]

1. a simple, clean, isolated, reliable bug repro mission, single AI or just as few as possible
   
2. https://www.bistudio.com/english/careers
   

I've mentioned no drastical AI changes in the OPREP, but that does not mean no bug-fixing - we'll do that as long as we actively support and improve Arma 3 (and we will for quite some time... you know us;))

And in fact bug-fixi​ng the AI can never be a simple thing and sometimes to fix a seemingly simple bug a complex solution has to be made.

Quickly about the mentioned....

• Driving and pathfinding - issues shared by engine AI, vehicle configuration and the map. Ideally ping us about an exact location. Since early access phase Mr.Klamacz has implemented a safe-check so the AI at least tries to unstuck itself even if it thinks it shouldn't be stuck at all. Should help in some situations, but crashing still damages the vehicle.
  It goes also with the performance, more detailed resolution to better navigate thru narrow streets would steal a lot of it. And wider streets would be less appealing and less useful for infantry combat. Indeterministic AI had to learn to drive and more importantly break and steer with less deterministic/more complex physics of the vehicles. Alltogether we are balancing on a thin line and doing trade-offs. Isolated issues help us a lot to get it right.
  
• Firing at distance - dependable on the weapon/optics' config. Snipers should not have problems to kill a target on 1km once they know about it. Riflemen have much lower engagement ranges.
  
• Getting stuck - can still be some missed animation issue, we are trying to catch em all
  
• Target selection/priorization - there are known issues, partly between config-defined cost of a target and the AI decisions themselves. Interestingly it was the same situation as the one showed on the vid which has initially led to more investigation :) Situation on the video is more or less OK - the target tank's crew is turned out and targetting the tank means "target the crew" for the AI. The AI may not recognize the turned out crew first, so it chooses an AT (at first it is just an armored target). Knowing more details it decides to try to take out the crew. (Players would hate if AI was about to destroy everything with an AT especially if they wanted to steal the vehicle...). It fails, crew, now in danger turns in, and our AT AI finally uses the tube. However, because there are mutliple targets in this area, it takes the AI some time to choose and fire at on, looks confused, occasionally fires and misses completely. Despite being directly ordered by the player to engage one specific target.
  

About the driving: The main problem is that the AI always drives on the very right edge of the road. If the road bends to the right it will even leave the road to shorten the way. This leads to crashes with all kinds of things everywhere on the island on almost all roads. If you could teach the AI to simply stay in the midddle of their lane if there is nothing on the road, everything would be fine (mostly).

Her you can find two very simple repro missions.

http://www.gamefront.com/files/24145819/Crashrep.7z

Markers will show you where the AI screws up for me 100% of the time.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Tonci87

[Muecke 114]

Her you can find two very simple repro missions.

http://www.gamefront.com/files/24144983/Crashrep.7z

Empty folders !!!:386:

[Tonci87 163]

Empty folders !!!:386:

LOL how did that happen?

anyway here is another link that should work

http://www.gamefront.com/files/24145819/Crashrep.7z

[Fireball 16]

1. Target selection/priorization - there are known issues, partly between config-defined cost of a target and the AI decisions themselves. Interestingly it was the same situation as the one showed on the vid which has initially led to more investigation :) Situation on the video is more or less OK - the target tank's crew is turned out and targetting the tank means "target the crew" for the AI. The AI may not recognize the turned out crew first, so it chooses an AT (at first it is just an armored target). Knowing more details it decides to try to take out the crew. (Players would hate if AI was about to destroy everything with an AT especially if they wanted to steal the vehicle...). It fails, crew, now in danger turns in, and our AT AI finally uses the tube. However, because there are mutliple targets in this area, it takes the AI some time to choose and fire at on, looks confused, occasionally fires and misses completely. Despite being directly ordered by the player to engage one specific target.
   

I would agree with you if engaging the turned out crewmen was a serious option (in the game), but in fact it isn't, specially while its moving. The AI turns in extremely quickly (maybe a tad too fast) and the attacking AI in the video from pappy.rabbit does not seem to realize this. There is certainly room for improvement.

[cool=azroul13 14]

Completly agree with Fireball, it seems pointless to kill the crew member of an armored vehicle.