Not liking the new Fatigue system - Jogging should not be penalised

[Inimical_rize 1]

This looks like a good option. There is no point to apply the penalty to someone without any loadout or with few kilos, after several minutes. Missions makers could have a function or a parameter where the fatigue begins, lilke "SetFatigueStart (30 kilos)"

This seem more to be where the game should head, and as said in another post The ability to lock and stash your backpack would be good, so you can retreat to it for Dems for towers or what not. Why not the ability to store kit on quads on a trailer? just like what happens in A-stan

---------- Post added at 10:29 ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 ----------

Customers that hate when the game challenges them instead of being a straight up primitive team death match shooter where you just run and gun never thinking about consequences?

Good riddance.

Military seems to think otherwise. That's why they use ArmA's big brother and not Crytek's smoke and mirrors.

I'm happy the games not about you or people like you, I add as others have said it's a game. If you want to have such an amazing experience why don't you join up? because with an attitude like yours i believe the military would say the exact same to you.

Arma is no where near "run and gun" you still have to evaluate options, Maybe you should turn your difficulty up?

The military use it as a training aid, it's a visual representation of events out side the control of the user. It's very expensive to co-ordinate an exercise that could mimic the events used in software such as VBS, S to save money Armies have incorporated VBS into it's training to cut costs.

They do no use it because it's "authentic" even then there is still errors that arise that wouldn't in reality.

---------- Post added at 10:32 ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 ----------

Customers that hate when the game challenges them instead of being a straight up primitive team death match shooter where you just run and gun never thinking about consequences?

Good riddance.

I happy the games not about you or people like you, I add as others have said it's a game. If you want to have such an amazing experience why don't you join up? because with an attitude like yours i believe the military would say the exact same to you.

Arma is no where near "run and gun" you still have to evaluate options, Maybe you should turn your difficulty up?

Military seems to think otherwise. That's why they use ArmA's big brother and not Crytek's smoke and mirrors.

The military use it as a training aid, it's a visual representation of events out side the control of the user. It's very expensive to co-ordinate an exercise that could mimic the events used in software such as VBS, S to save money Armies have incorporated VBS into it's training to cut costs.

They do no use it because it's "authentic" even then there is still errors that arise that wouldn't in reality.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Inimcal_

[chortles 263]

My suggestion would be:

Make fatigue very "soft" and forgiving - with default loadouts. Anything a person can carry WITHOUT a backpack, is fine. But, wear a backpack and fill it with heavy stuff then it begins to impinge on your fatigue levels. I think this would be a good middle ground, most of us don't wish to be limited by fatigue when we're just playing a game, but then again we don't wish to have ridiculous amounts of loudout with no penalty at all.

Best thing is - for skirmishes & battles the backpack wearers can dump their backpacks for the battle duration.

Backpacks make sense here, but what about chest rigs and the inevitable ammo and armor?

[bigpickle 0]

the heaving breathing volumes are a bit much

[keefehb 0]

I find it interesting that on these forums since the alpha came out there is a rise in people slating those of us who enjoy the mil sim parts of arma... If I went on to the battlefield forum and suggested more realism etc they'd tell me to fuck off back to arma...

Back on topic - There needs to be some kind of penalty for carrying a lot of stuff, as metalcraze said you can't have people running round with a .50 sniper rifle and a javelin, certainly not easily anyway. I don't like the idea of classes or restricting people using certain weapons.

[metalcraze 290]

The military use it as a training aid, it's a visual representation of events out side the control of the user. It's very expensive to co-ordinate an exercise that could mimic the events used in software such as VBS, S to save money Armies have incorporated VBS into it's training to cut costs.

They do no use it because it's "authentic" even then there is still errors that arise that wouldn't in reality.

Yeah they just use a random shooter they found on the internet to train the troops. Surely VBS was a purely accidental choice, not because it was the most authentic offer they could find.

But that's offtopic. What's on topic is that fatigue is something that every soldier faces. Even if you will run around naked eventually you will get tired.

And if you are getting tired with the current non-existent fatigue system since I was able to run for kms with loaded backpack in A3 without any consequences and I have no idea where you see those blur effects - unless of course they don't show up on Low PP - then you are doing something wrong.

Use transports to travel long distances and there will be no problems. Normally soldiers don't run for 5 km to get to the area of operations.

The lack of encumbrance and resulting fatigue was always a glaring issue and exploit in the series.

I find it interesting that on these forums since the alpha came out there is a rise in people slating those of us who enjoy the mil sim parts of arma... If I went on to the battlefield forum and suggested more realism etc they'd tell me to fuck off back to arma...

I always find the arguments "games gotta be fun" (meaning as shallow as possible) ironic. If sims are not games and games are "fun" - then why people drop those super fun games like Dragon Rising, or MoH or yet another CoD that is older than a year after a few months (at most)?

If anything Dragon Rising is like a wet dream of the "add stealth knives-remove recoil-want to run forever-sims are for aspergers" crowd invading Biforums since it has none of the inconvenient challenge that ArmA has (or had).

Edited May 8, 2013 by metalcraze

[Inimical_rize 1]

Yeah they just use a random shooter they found on the internet to train the troops. Surely VBS was a purely accidental choice, not because it was the most authentic offer they could find.

But that's offtopic. What's on topic is that fatigue is something that every soldier faces. Even if you will run around naked eventually you will get tired.

And if you are getting tired with the current non-existent fatigue system since I was able to run for kms with loaded backpack in A3 without any consequences and I have no idea where you see those blur effects - unless of course they don't show up on Low PP - then you are doing something wrong.

Use transports to travel long distances and there will be no problems. Normally soldiers don't run for 5 km to get to the area of operations.

Not being ridiculous enough to simulate putting on boots manually is one thing, but the lack of encumbrance and resulting fatigue was always a glaring issue and exploit in the series.

A random shooter, really? the UK Army trialed all kinds of different simulators to find one that is most Flexible and user friendly.

VBS is used as i said before in Training to create scenarios that cannot be created in the U.K area of training establishments and decreasing budgets, it's also used to recreate situations that have already happened in actual theaters of war and find routine or S.O.P's (standard operating procedures) that best suit that situation. It is not used because you sprint 100mtrs and you are breathing heavily and have difficulty shooting, It's not used because of the sonic crack made by the bullet that passes over your head in game, It is not used because of the sound effects made by the vehicles so stop thinking it is, I've used the system extensively to train recruits heading to battalion and out to operations.

What non existent fatigue system? It's implemented in the game already. I've not said that there is blur. I run the game on Ultra so there's no problem with my system

Fatigue = You run then you STOP! your BREATHING IS HEAVY you can not acquire targets easily because the sights are not steady because your breathing is heavy, That is fatigue.

Encumbrance = You carry incredible weight your Fatigue is more rapid as opposed to carrying nothing.

I'm not sure what military you're talking about but if you talk to a Falklands veteran you'd see that vehicles we're rarely used because of the terrain, Some Marine/Para/Infantry units Tactically advanced to battle (tabbed/tabbing = the walking of 200 mtrs and jogging of 6-700) over 20 kms before assaulting 8-9 positions consecutively

Currently in Afghanistan the average patrol consists of 15km walking in one direction then the assaulting of positions and usually a brisk walk/jog back

And that's not including a Casevac system or Resupply via Hand and foot

the SAS in Iraq (pre invasion on both invasions) were known to ditch their vehicles 25-30kms from mountains, then climb said mountains with equipment in excess 100lb then have to fight their way off, down or up further.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Inimcal_

[killzone_kid 1329]

There is a command to enable disable fatigue http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/enableFatigue but it doesnt do anything it seems

[dmarkwick 261]

The lack of encumbrance and resulting fatigue was always a glaring issue and exploit in the series.

T'aint an exploit if it's the same for all players :) and - AI don't get fatigued. Fatigue is something that's easy to make distinctly NOT fun, my leaning would be to make it forgiving rather than unforgiving, in the manner I described a few posts back. Inconvenience the over-packers, not the regular packers.

I always find the arguments "games gotta be fun" (meaning as shallow as possible) ironic.

If the only meaning of fun for you is "as shallow as possible" then it's no wonder you ALWAYS are bickering with people about gameplay issues. Game has got to be fun, or people simply won't play it, as simple as that. ACE exists for people whose idea of fun is closer to your (apparent) idea of gameplay, because I think (and I think BIS also think) that for the majority, basic gameplay out the box should be fun. That's not to say it should emulate other games (always your worry), but that it should provide gameplay that the other games don't.

[katipo66 94]

I guess BIS cant make every thing in the game optional, they must roll there eyes to heaven each time they see that word... but it would be nice if a more hardcore type of fatigue system would be available, Maybe a penalty could be if you run a very long distance then your character becomes less responsive for a certain amount of time, as in a slight delay in everything he does like weapon raises slower, character turns slower, reloads slower etc etc... the further you run the longer the effect?

[bigpickle 0]

I find it interesting that on these forums since the alpha came out there is a rise in people slating those of us who enjoy the mil sim parts of arma... If I went on to the battlefield forum and suggested more realism etc they'd tell me to fuck off back to arma...

Well, shame on you for still playing BF3 ;)

I think there are better ways to make it more realistic without being annoying, eg the heavy breathing 24/7 when moving more than 20 steps at moderate pace is over kill, i think more realism should mean things like we have a recoil that is more realistic unlike the elephant gun recoil syndrome seen in the ArmA series thus far, or Aim/hold system that doesn't look like the player has Parkinson's disease, or better yet the ability to have a lung capacity larger than the average 4 year old for aimed shots.

The devil is in the detail.

[-=seany=- 5]

T'aint an exploit if it's the same for all players :) and - AI don't get fatigued. Fatigue is something that's easy to make distinctly NOT fun, my leaning would be to make it forgiving rather than unforgiving, in the manner I described a few posts back. Inconvenience the over-packers, not the regular packers.

If the only meaning of fun for you is "as shallow as possible" then it's no wonder you ALWAYS are bickering with people about gameplay issues. Game has got to be fun, or people simply won't play it, as simple as that. ACE exists for people whose idea of fun is closer to your (apparent) idea of gameplay, because I think (and I think BIS also think) that for the majority, basic gameplay out the box should be fun. That's not to say it should emulate other games (always your worry), but that it should provide gameplay that the other games don't.

Well put, thanks.

Metal, you must see that you cant just make the game as hyper real as possible, or you will make it not fun to play, there has to be balance, like all the previous games had. They could have added much more restrictive and more "realistic" movement and encumbrance in the previous games, but they choose not to for good reasons. It's easy to start to turn the game into a chore if you go over board with this stuff.

Again, I'm not against upgrades to the encumbrance, fatigue system. I just don't want to be too heavily punished (especially with annoying visuals)when doing the kind of standard hoofing it from A to B that we always are doing in these games. (telling some one to "just use a vehicle" is also not very helpful and shows a lack of interest in even trying to understand the situation from other players point of view)

I was able to run for kms with loaded backpack in A3 without any consequences and I have no idea where you see those blur effects - unless of course they don't show up on Low PP - then you are doing something wrong.

yes, blur does disappear with with PP on low, which also makes it pointless. Why have it at all if you can just exploit it and force it off by using low PP. I want to use all my nice Graphical environment effects and don't want to be forced to turn it off to get rid (some) of the visual penalty for jogging.

I think extreme realism should be covered by mods like ACE. Although, I know there is no reasoning with you...Your opinions on this stuff are very strong, I'm sure you'll agree (as real as possible and game-play, playability come 2nd). Some times it might be better to not get involved in threads like this when your are so against gameplay and enjoyment type balancing. We all know how you feel and the threads always go the same way.

It has been interesting to see different opinions on the matter, though.

[ChineseFood 11]

oh c'mon guys you want fast game go play call of duty or battlefield , there is 0 games similar to Arma because its unique slower paced more realistic.

[rasdenfasden 12]

Regarding sprinting, it always was that you'd slow down to jog speed after you got sufficiently fatigued. The only difference is that the animation changes as well now.

[dmarkwick 261]

oh c'mon guys you want fast game go play call of duty or battlefield , there is 0 games similar to Arma because its unique slower paced more realistic.

Replies that sound like "go play CoD" always get zero interest from me. Plus, your answer makes it seem that the slower ArmA is the better - clearly not the case. A middle ground between zero inconvenience and constantly feeling like you're dredging through a swamp is all that's needed. :)

[batto 17]

Didn't read whole thread, but if there were a poll, I would vote no. But...

I am not a fan of too many Visual type analogues of representing stress or exhaustion, most of the time the are just irritating

Totally agree (though in case of exhaustion it makes sense as it's not individual, only limits are different). Instead of visuals I'm for forced walk server-side option.

[[frl]myke 14]

If i remember correctly, a lot of people complained that there is no realistic fatigue system and this endless jogging is unrealistic back when ArmA 2 was released. I even think a popular mod has this included and everyone liked it. Now BI includes it and it is wrong again. :facepalm:

[chortles 263]

Replies that sound like "go play CoD" always get zero interest from me. Plus, your answer makes it seem that the slower ArmA is the better - clearly not the case. A middle ground between zero inconvenience and constantly feeling like you're dredging through a swamp is all that's needed. :)

Plus it flies in the very face of combat pace's addition to the series, and Smookie revealing that "aim through sights and stay in combat pace" was in fact intentional... two hints that some degree of "sped up" compared to Arma 2 is indeed intentional.

[Wolfstriked 11]

I like the harsher realism but to a point.While I love the blur from severe fatigue at same time I feel it should only happen when your sprinting and when you go back to jogging the fatigue slowly dissipates to a certain degree.I also really feel that the game would feel better if you not only had to control your speed in relation to fatigue but also the weapon stance so that you get further fatigue dissipation if you jog with weapon lowered.Weapon weight factoring in largely here.

That said,Arma 3 should "ship" with two difficulty settings?Its not hard to leave the game as it is now for casual settings and then give good tweaks to the hardcore setting.

[babydoc 1]

Another fine example of how attempting to emulate real life TOO much will simply end up being more annoying than gratifying to most gamers. So what, now I'm expected to have to WALK a kilometer? Who has the time for this, honestly. Sorry but I tend to agree with the OP in cases like this.

Don't understand why the devs love to listen to the top 200-300 hardcore players when instead they should be hiring local focus groups who never played the game before. Realism is one thing but reality is another... it's as if they're trying to shoot themselves in the foot...nobody I know wants to play this anymore :-(

Maybe they need to make 2 versions...1 for the hardcore fans who have the time to play 20 hours a week...and another more fun version for the rest of us, heh.

BIS makes the game the way THEY want it to be.

They want to make a military "sim" and not a game for the masses wich are young impatient COD-kids.

If every company would think the way you do where would the diversity be?

[katipo66 94]

Get loadout, sprint for 5mins to action, die, repeat... Every other game has this formula, it gets boring and repetitive after 20-30mins for me at least... So what is arma's point of difference anymore, a large map? A realistic fatigue system is really important imo, It would create a different "fun" where you actually had to think instead of just charging everywhere.

I'm no milsim realism guy, just a gamer.. But I really don't want to see arma become a bf clone on large maps.

[PFC Magician 10]

BIS makes the game the way THEY want it to be.

They want to make a military "sim" and not a game for the masses wich are young impatient COD-kids.

If every company would think the way you do where would the diversity be?

Ideas need

discussions not

Adding a fatigue system is beautiful, that can improve and for that we are!

I like sprinting limitation by the weight and breathing sound that avoids all communication, just need the balance between the time penalty, and the game map

[cifordayzserver 119]

I find it interesting that on these forums since the alpha came out there is a rise in people slating those of us who enjoy the mil sim parts of arma... If I went on to the battlefield forum and suggested more realism etc they'd tell me to fuck off back to arma...

Back on topic - There needs to be some kind of penalty for carrying a lot of stuff, as metalcraze said you can't have people running round with a .50 sniper rifle and a javelin, certainly not easily anyway. I don't like the idea of classes or restricting people using certain weapons.

I don't think anyone is slighting the mil sim guys, it seems to be the other way around. The no fatigue guys aren't saying remove it entirely, but make it optional to filter missions by like they do with 3DP or CH or anything else.. or make it otherwise easy to switch.

The mil sim guys are the only one's shouting got play BF or COD.

I disagree with the mild/heavy loadout system though, because I think by default Arma should have the fatigue system. Mods/missions where it's not needed should just remove it.

Myke;2390980']If i remember correctly' date=' a lot of people complained that there is no realistic fatigue system and this endless jogging is unrealistic back when ArmA 2 was released. I even think a popular mod has this included and everyone liked it. Now BI includes it and it is wrong again. :facepalm:[/quote']

Well a more open minded person might look at your sentence and think, surely some were disappointed by the addition of fatigue. Further one could point out that the most popular mod ever made in Arma features no fatigue system... so obviously there are groups, maps, missions, play styles etc that call for BOTH systems.

I like it in as a default mechanic is Arma personally, but would like to see it removed from Wasteland for example...

Most of all though I don't want any of you to F off or play other games. That's what's great about Arma, you can make the experience you want.

[twisted 127]

Just went into the editor, put a lego piece and a book on the w key and went away as my character ran across the island. took about 20 minutes (I didn?t time exactly). I experienced no blur, but I have my settings on low. My character did not stop to rest once, as far as I know. He had full gear on. When I finally stopped he had some pretty bad weapon shake and was panting like a dog. After a whole 45 seconds lying down he was back to 100% again with the normal, slow sway. I think the system is fairly forgiving already.

@BigShot I am not sure how effects like blur and weapon sway really effect the playing time or "fun". Like I said, it took a whole 45 seconds to recover from a 7km jog with full gear on over many hills. How much easier do you want it to be? If you don't like traveling long distance on foot this is more a problem with the mission you are playing than the game mechanics if you ask me. If you were forced to run 7km in COD it would be just as boring and time consuming.

Very true.

Agree, its very easy to work with now and only a minor inconvenience . Not sure ive noticed such tired blurring though, must take a look.

What i like about its idea of fatigue is that ultimately weight and gear will impact fatigue so no supersoldier load outs, more intelligent planning is needed. Plus smarter transportation planning is needed, so vehicles are more vital. even hardcore sf operators wont go running rambo like through contested territory, they're smarter than that: unlike most gamers.

[chortles 263]

Well a more open minded person might look at your sentence and think, surely some were disappointed by the addition of fatigue. Further one could point out that the most popular mod ever made in Arma features no fatigue system... so obviously there are groups, maps, missions, play styles etc that call for BOTH systems.

Isn't said mod dependent on said lack of a fatigue mechanic more severe than inability to sprint because its very gameplay concept dictates that vehicles shall be mostly unavailable?

The remarks about BI are funny considering certain BI devs' own comments... ;)

[max power 21]

BIS makes the game the way THEY want it to be.

They want to make a military "sim" and not a game for the masses wich are young impatient COD-kids.

If every company would think the way you do where would the diversity be?

I think that the truth is a little greyer than that. They are enhancing the realism in some parts, and smoothing out the gameplay at realism's expense in others.

---------- Post added at 21:09 ---------- Previous post was at 21:04 ----------

Isn't said mod dependent on said lack of a fatigue mechanic more severe than inability to sprint because its very gameplay concept dictates that vehicles shall be mostly unavailable?

The remarks about BI are funny considering certain BI devs' own comments... ;)

Yeah, the implication that DayZ is popular because of no fatigue, therefore everything else will be more popular with no fatigue is a little weird.