Not liking the new Fatigue system - Jogging should not be penalised

[-=seany=- 5]

Not sure when it changed (I don't get to play and test that often), but I do not like the new fatigue system. I hate the way that even if you just normal jog your screen starts to go blurry and darkens at the edges (you can also get rid of the blur by turning off PP so whats the point in it?) . I think the fact that sprint has been severely limited is enough of a limit/change compared to the previous games. If the fatigue system is left as it currently is, we will be looking at a screen that is always blurring and darkening at the edges. Most of OPF/Arma has been about jogging long distances from A-B (hell it used to be sprinting, but we cant do that now either [which I don't mind so much about, it was unrealistic]). I am not a fan of too many Visual type analogues of representing stress or exhaustion, most of the time the are just irritating, unless they are very subtle. Things like shaking guns sights are fine, and brief PP effects.

Again, Jogging should not be limited in anyway, visually or otherwise. I believe we should be able to jog from one side of the map to the other with no penalty.

The fact that Full sprint has been heavily limited is enough. Honestly, I'd rather be able to sprint for a bit longer but have the visual penalties currently applied to jogging applied to Sprint. That would make more sense to me.

(PS, not running the dev build)

Edited May 6, 2013 by -=seany=-

[froggyluv 2130]

Again, Jogging should not be limited in anyway, visually or otherwise. I believe we should be able to jog from one side of the map to the other with no penalty.

.

Isn't Chernarus like the size of Rhode island? You can jog across Rhode island with full gear with zero need for a break? Color me impressed - and Im a runner :p

[Tonci87 163]

You should try to have less items with you.

[bigshot 62]

Another fine example of how attempting to emulate real life TOO much will simply end up being more annoying than gratifying to most gamers. So what, now I'm expected to have to WALK a kilometer? Who has the time for this, honestly. Sorry but I tend to agree with the OP in cases like this.

Don't understand why the devs love to listen to the top 200-300 hardcore players when instead they should be hiring local focus groups who never played the game before. Realism is one thing but reality is another... it's as if they're trying to shoot themselves in the foot...nobody I know wants to play this anymore :-(

Maybe they need to make 2 versions...1 for the hardcore fans who have the time to play 20 hours a week...and another more fun version for the rest of us, heh.

Edited May 6, 2013 by BigShot

[-=seany=- 5]

Yes, there is a fine line between realism and making frustrating game play, it is after all still a game. We didn't need this much restriction in OFP, Arma1, Arma 2 or OA. I don't see why we need it now.

I had thought that the Alpha was mainly to show case infantry, so one would believe that it was pretty close to how the devs wanted it when they first release it. It's quite surprising to me now how different (restricted) infantry movement is now compared to the initial release of the Alpha. Initially the alpha was a bit too fast moving and "Console shootery", but only a little. It only need minor tweaking in my view. I think the restrictions have gone too far, mainly for jogging. I would accept restrictions to sprint for Arma3.

There are some people who will always bark "realism" and quote real army stats and infantry weights and distances (pretty subjective anyway). Trouble is, a verbatim copy of how a human can move about with weight would not be much fun in a game. I think they got the balance pretty right in the previous games.

I like to see these kind of levels of realism in ACE etc, but not for the main game.

Isn't Chernarus like the size of Rhode island? You can jog across Rhode island with full gear with zero need for a break? Color me impressed - and Im a runner :p

It didn't matter for (or detract from) the first 3 versions of the most realistic PC shooter game, and I don't think it matters now.

Edited May 6, 2013 by -=seany=-

[bad benson 1733]

hm. i'm not sure where i stand on this one. to be honest i haven't played missions where i sprinted so much that i ended up being forced to walk. it really comes down to what and how you play it. if you play something like wasteland where you constantly are moving long distances on your own it might become annoying.

in a bigger military context where proper use of vehicles is crucial it makes a lot of sense though. it makes you really feel the distances. i mean i get the frustration if you are in a context where you have to walk huge distances all the time but that's just a fraction of the gameplay of arma. there's a really easy to use command to disable fatigue overall. http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/enableFatigue

so if we are talking about the loot, constant movement, carrying lots of stuff kind of missions it might make more sense to suggest disabling fatigue to the mission maker of that particular game mode.

when i play, i play stuff like annex and invade or blitzkrieg and i had never any problems with fatigue. infact i barely notice it at all unless i have a full pack and a launcher on me.

i wouldn't like the game being washed out more and more and leaving stuff like that too realism mods only (i don't like passing out :p). arma needs more stuff like that implemented in a straight forward way not having it removed or dialed back so much that you won't even notice it playing a normal coop.

edit:

It's quite surprising to me now how different (restricted) infantry movement is now compared to the initial release of the Alpha.

quite an exaggeration, don't you think?

[DaRkL3AD3R 1]

I'm pretty sure that the fine line between realism and gameplay is easily described in saying Arma 3 vs Battlefield 3. You want "fun" then you need a more arcade like game. You want realism, well there's no compromising realism. I doubt the average soldier can jog across 10km straight with full gear on. At some point, you need to rest.

[Alpha-Kilo 36]

Maybe making the fatigue system optional by including it in the difficulty menue would help? But honestly, I like the fact that you have think about how much weight to carry, that it makes sense to wait in hiding for a moment before you start attacking he enemy, and all that. What I really miss in ArmA3 are bicycles. They could fill the gap between running and motorized transport. I read somewhere that the physics engine doesn't support bicycles (yet), so we might see "tactical Segways", instead?

[St. Jimmy 272]

DoF/motion blur are the things that many people want to separate from Post-Processing, including me. That's why many don't use or use low PP.

[afp 1]

I'm pretty sure that the fine line between realism and gameplay is easily described in saying Arma 3 vs Battlefield 3. You want "fun" then you need a more arcade like game. You want realism, well there's no compromising realism. I doubt the average soldier can jog across 10km straight with full gear on. At some point, you need to rest.

True, but in real you dose your efforts so you wont collapse. If you rest for 5 minutes, this may not have a huge impact over the main action, so who cares about it. Exaustion is not really something that can be simulated with cursor shaking... adrenaline could make you aim better, even if you're tired. Adding low-impact features to the main theme of the game may not be necessary, why not have boots cleaning, eating, tooth brushing, pissing and scratching balls, so there will be even more realism? While a game mission can take 1-2 hours, in real the exhaustion could appear after several hours why force a time compression like this?

The fatigue system (the way ACE team did it) was good to stop players to self overload with unnatural weight, like 80-100 kilos, 3-4-5 rockets, 2 launchers, 2 assault rifles, 20 nades etc. But this could be avoided with some custom loadout in the begining of the mission or some other methods, like loosing all inventory if the weight is more then 40 kilos, a warning etc. I'd say the "fatigue" is something at the limit of the realism needed in game.

[Smurf 12]

Hard to have a discussion on the subject without knowing what are the Devs plans to the whole fatigue\inventory\movement systems that are all tied together. What affect what? To what extend?

I like the idea of adding a new layer of logistical thinking added by such changes but the implementation may screw everything over.

Anyway I agree that jogging shouldn't consume your energies in "shorter" distances.

[-Coulum- 35]

Just went into the editor, put a lego piece and a book on the w key and went away as my character ran across the island. took about 20 minutes (I didn?t time exactly). I experienced no blur, but I have my settings on low. My character did not stop to rest once, as far as I know. He had full gear on. When I finally stopped he had some pretty bad weapon shake and was panting like a dog. After a whole 45 seconds lying down he was back to 100% again with the normal, slow sway. I think the system is fairly forgiving already.

@BigShot I am not sure how effects like blur and weapon sway really effect the playing time or "fun". Like I said, it took a whole 45 seconds to recover from a 7km jog with full gear on over many hills. How much easier do you want it to be? If you don't like traveling long distance on foot this is more a problem with the mission you are playing than the game mechanics if you ask me. If you were forced to run 7km in COD it would be just as boring and time consuming.

Hard to have a discussion on the subject without knowing what are the Devs plans to the whole fatigue\inventory\movement systems that are all tied together. What affect what? To what extend?

I like the idea of adding a new layer of logistical thinking added by such changes but the implementation may screw everything over.

Very true.

[NeMeSiS 11]

It shouldn't blur, i like being fatigued however looking at a blurry screen all the time (Because usually not a lot of gameplay consists around being stationary) is really annoying and tires my eyes quickly, and making me not want to play anymore. PP effects seperate or not, blur should not be an effect of being fatigued.

EDIT: I dont think it actually blurs at this point..

Edited May 6, 2013 by NeMeSiS

[Wolfstriked 11]

If they are gonna add in more detailed weight system than maybe a light soldier can jog indefinitely with no blur effect while a heavily weight down soldier will suffer from it while jogging.Right now even naked and jogging and you will get the blur effect.

[mobile_medic 43]

I'm pretty sure that the fine line between realism and gameplay is easily described in saying Arma 3 vs Battlefield 3. You want "fun" then you need a more arcade like game. You want realism, well there's no compromising realism. I doubt the average soldier can jog across 10km straight with full gear on. At some point, you need to rest.

There are plenty of things that are not realistic about this game, though, and there are obviously conscious choices that must be made with regards to realism vs. gameplay. The vastness and opportunity in the game in the broader sense is a nod towards realism. But, for specific game play elements, some things help enhance the experience, and others don't.

Tried flying a heli recently? Not very realistic. Neither is the fact that I can't scale a 5' fence. Or, the fact that I can give myself amazing medical attention in 5 seconds. Or, the ability to speed up time. Or, to save. Or, the fact that I can't jump. Do I think we should be able to jump? I'm not too worried about it, and I can understand possible reasons for not having jumping capability in the game (namely bunny hopping mp)

Everything is a tradeoff. In this case it is a balance between an immersive, rich, approachable game play experience, and pure, unadulterated realism. If you want the latter, join the military, imo.

[nodunit 397]

Your vision doesn't get fuzzy from fatigue, it's heat exhaustion that gets you..then you start seeing flashy colors if you are dehydrated...mmm....

Haven't tested it yet but we don't need visual aids. Hearing my character panting and unable to hold himself steady is clue enough.

Much like the blood on the screen to tell me I've been hit, it gets in the way of the game and it feels like hand holding.

Edited May 6, 2013 by NodUnit

[giorgygr 61]

I don't like this thread at all

[metalcraze 290]

Jog isn't penalized enough.

In March 5 release if you jogged too much you were forced to walk eventually. But now it's exactly the same as ArmA2 - you can jog forever. Even if you will put on the favorite noob's combo of M107 and Javelin. It's annoying.

[lvl1k0n 10]

Jog isn't penalized enough.

In March 5 release if you jogged too much you were forced to walk eventually. But now it's exactly the same as ArmA2 - you can jog forever. Even if you will put on the favorite noob's combo of M107 and Javelin. It's annoying.

Yup. Not sure where this forced "walking" is coming into play. I play in Wasteland servers all the time and I'm jogging 24/7. I've never been forced to walk.

My biggest gripe is that you get fatigued too quickly imo. The blurring is a little annoying, but that can be turned off.

[keefehb 0]

Another fine example of how attempting to emulate real life TOO much will simply end up being more annoying than gratifying to most gamers. So what, now I'm expected to have to WALK a kilometer? Who has the time for this, honestly. Sorry but I tend to agree with the OP in cases like this.

Don't understand why the devs love to listen to the top 200-300 hardcore players when instead they should be hiring local focus groups who never played the game before. Realism is one thing but reality is another... it's as if they're trying to shoot themselves in the foot...nobody I know wants to play this anymore :-(

Maybe they need to make 2 versions...1 for the hardcore fans who have the time to play 20 hours a week...and another more fun version for the rest of us, heh.

I can't tell if you're taking the piss or not.

[byku 13]

So, i've put explosive specialist, took NLAV and grandes and after around 250 meters started to have a bit blurry effects. Then took light rifleman and after 350 it started. 350meters seems a bit too low. I've been running a kilometre without a problem. I like the blur, but it should be present even on disabled pp(because what's the point then?) and it should appear much later, and there should be bigger differences between light rifleman and fully equipped explosive specialist with nlav and tons of granades :p.

[-=seany=- 5]

I have not actually experienced being forced to a walk from jogging or sprinting too long, so I cant say if that exists or not (tbh I wouldn't be a fan of such a thing either). The main thing I don't like was the Visual additions of darkening screen corners and pulsing blur after what felt like a pretty short jog. The slight blurring and wobbly post process affect was pretty cool from arma2 when you full sprinted for a long period. But these sort of visual penalties for jogging are not needed, you are constantly jogging in arma, so it will just be an annoyance. Your screen will be dark in the corners and blurred for a large portion of your game play time.

[max power 21]

I'm pretty sure that the fine line between realism and gameplay is easily described in saying Arma 3 vs Battlefield 3. You want "fun" then you need a more arcade like game. You want realism, well there's no compromising realism. I doubt the average soldier can jog across 10km straight with full gear on. At some point, you need to rest.

Here's a compromise I can think of off the top of my head: Iron sights combat pace. But I think if the devs want to put a weight and encumbrance system in (which I recall being a pretty popular thing), then your soldier getting tired when he's carrying too much is the (only) logical outcome.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Max Power

[-Coulum- 35]

I have not actually experienced being forced to a walk from jogging or sprinting too long, so I cant say if that exists or not (tbh I wouldn't be a fan of such a thing either). The main thing I don't like was the Visual additions of darkening screen corners and pulsing blur after what felt like a pretty short jog. The slight blurring and wobbly post process affect was pretty cool from arma2 when you full sprinted for a long period. But these sort of visual penalties for jogging are not needed, you are constantly jogging in arma, so it will just be an annoyance. Your screen will be dark in the corners and blurred for a large portion of your game play time.

I can agree with that. the blur is kind of unnecessary. Some heavy breathing, heartbeat and heavy sway is enough for me. I do think that heavy gear should slow down the pace at which you jog though, and that eventually you should be forced to walk. Jogging with a javelin would be hard enough already, let alone with your primary, ammo, armour and miscellaneous.

But I have a feeling there is still alot of work to be done on the fatigue system so we have to wait and see.

[Tonci87 163]

Jog isn't penalized enough.

In March 5 release if you jogged too much you were forced to walk eventually. But now it's exactly the same as ArmA2 - you can jog forever. Even if you will put on the favorite noob's combo of M107 and Javelin. It's annoying.

^This.

As it is now you are not really punished for taking up to much gear. I like the ACE System. It makes you think and plan about what you really need, instead of grabbing everything that is in the box.