Not liking the new Fatigue system - Jogging should not be penalised

[-Coulum- 35]

Since Dayz has been brought up...

Don't you have to eat and drink in dayz. I've even seen suggestions about sleeping.

And yet arma players are unhappy/complaining about "too much realism" because their dude has to take a 30 second breather after running a couple km while being overburdened with a ridiculous amount of gear? (And by the way I have yet to have my character force walk no matter what I carry right now...)

I find that interesting.

Anyhow I hope that BIS literally plays around with the fatigue system while simultaneously asking for our feed back and outlining their general intentions. Because talking about a fatigue system that we have no idea how finished is, like we are now, really doesn't achieve much.

[chortles 263]

I think that the truth is a little greyer than that. They are enhancing the realism in some parts, and smoothing out the gameplay at realism's expense in others.

This is what I meant by "funny considering certain BI devs' own comments". ;) For example, "recent design decisions" -- that is, intentional choice -- making Arma the only shooter I'm aware of where you can aim through sights while staying in combat pace unlike Battlefield and without opportunity cost unlike COD? :lol: By opportunity cost, I mean that it costs a Perk in MW3 and an Allocation Point (or two when running a three-attachment primary using the Primary Gunfighter Wildcard) in Black Ops 2 where it isn't even full movement speed, but in Arma 3 it's default.

And don't forget, this is a dev studio run by a guy who claimed to actually like DayZ's gameplay and not just the money it's brought in. :p

Heck, I remember certain other comments by certain creative directors for this game about the intended direction...

Yeah, the implication that DayZ is popular because of no fatigue, therefore everything else will be more popular with no fatigue is a little weird.

It's definitely not a plausible analogy, I just brought DayZ up in respect to the fact that it seems that the ideas behind a more punitive fatigue system (i.e. to force greater emphasis on coordinated transportation logistics) ends up colliding with a gameplay concept that specifically is a free-for-all between multiple individual actors where vehicles are (originally supposed to be) a rarity. Then again, this issue also seems to stem from how the advocates' ideas of "what is Arma" and the "Arma gameplay concept" are actually way, way narrower than what's actually played out there in the wide® world of Arma...

Since Dayz has been brought up...

Don't you have to eat and drink in dayz. I've even seen suggestions about sleeping.

And believe me, these suggestions have caught their share of mockery. ;) While it's also being used to complain that Arma is less realistic than DayZ. :p

outlining their general intentions. Because talking about a fatigue system that we have no idea how finished is, like we are now, really doesn't achieve much.

This is where I'm entirely in agreement with you.

[metalcraze 290]

Since Dayz has been brought up...

Don't you have to eat and drink in dayz. I've even seen suggestions about sleeping.

And yet arma players are unhappy/complaining about "too much realism" because their dude has to take a 30 second breather after running a couple km while being overburdened with a ridiculous amount of gear? (And by the way I have yet to have my character force walk no matter what I carry right now...)

I don't think these are DayZ or ArmA players actually. Most likely the older "ArmA why u no play like BF" crowd that sticks to ArmA for whatever reason.

Fatigue, encumbrance are a layer of complexity that apparently isn't welcome when you just want to run and gun spamming javelin missiles on a random TDM server.

Then again, this issue also seems to stem from how the advocates' ideas of "what is Arma" and the "Arma gameplay concept" are actually way, way narrower than what's actually played out there in the wide® world of Arma...

Yes tell me about narrow concept ideas when you are always whining and go into petty insults whenever someone suggests to expand ArmA gameplay and bring it closer to being a military simulator it's advertised as.

Edited May 9, 2013 by metalcraze

[tortuosit 486]

BIS should do it like a good developer does. Like the skill, fatigue system could be a game option and like the SetSkill-Array, there should be a fatigue-Array with useful time and value parameters.

[chortles 263]

tortuosit, a lot of this probably stems from there being seemingly no "word from a dev" as to what they're actually intending -- or even if there is a dev team consensus on what the hell fatigue is supposed to be like in Arma 3; has any dev said anything about how fatigue/encumbrance are supposed to work since the E3/Gamescom 2012 dev comments?

[afp 1]

I have the feeling that the "fatigue" fans are mostly new players who never experienced it. I remember playing the very first versions of ACE hardcore fatigue system, collapsing or blacking out every 50m, the gameplay wasn't really more realistic or fun. Just felt like an useless annoying thing bugging you all the time. There were of course some people liking it, more or less, but the majority was not really enthusiastic about it. ACE team also made it less penalizing later.

[liquidpinky 11]

I have the feeling that the "fatigue" fans are mostly new players who never experienced it. I remember playing the very first versions of ACE hardcore fatigue system, collapsing or blacking out every 50m, the gameplay wasn't really more realistic or fun. Just felt like an useless annoying thing bugging you all the time. There were of course some people liking it, more or less, but the majority was not really enthusiastic about it. ACE team also made it less penalizing later.

Hated it in ACE, never used ACE since without having to have my arm twisted by clan mates and will never use it if I am playing on my own.

I like to hike everywhere in game (someone has to appreciate all the map creators hard work ;) ) but I also understand that there has to be a balance if you are kitting yourself out like a human tank.

Just dont go as far as ACE and be blacking out all over the place, I have had too hike with heavy tools to remote sites plenty in the past and ACE took it to far in my own opinion.

[chortles 263]

Hated it in ACE, never used ACE since without having to have my arm twisted by clan mates and will never use it if I am playing on my own.

Hear, hear! Thank you for speaking up for those of us of this sentiment. :)

[Zorg_DK 10]

The thing with ACE's fatigue is that as long as you keep your weight down, you can run around the map without blacking out, no problem. I like that since it makes you think twice about gear selection.

[Inimical_rize 1]

Fatigue and encumbrance system is good, It can be improved! How about some kind of system where as you join the same server quite often, why not have the fitness of your guy improved the more your knowledge of the game is improved (Newcomers) Because it's usually the newcomers that pick up bags and bags of kit and go on a one man mission for about 10 seconds, they're then killed and have to wait 100 or so seconds before respawn or revive (Domi) then they start learning the lesson of slow and steady, obviously there would have to be a cap on the amount of fitness gained or we would all be BOLTing about the place.

Could it be done, Do you think it's a good idea? I like this idea could also make people rejoin said servers so that as some times is the case a server running dry of players and falling to the 0/30 area on the server list none of us venture too often. I do believe capping what a soldier can carry is key to all of this, me personally in the prime of my fitness in Afghanistan herrick 10, At the start of my deployment I had to man pack 1 javelin across a mountain peak at around 1000ft (it was a safe area to do so) how ever it put a lot of guys out of action, towards the end I could do 1 no problem and go get another.

[bad benson 1733]

so what is the problem again? because the only thing that was described here that really is annoying is the blur effect. the whole being forced to walk or passing out thing is more like a phobia of some people it seems. i played a long insurgency like coop yesterday and we walked all over stratis without any vehicles at all. all i noticed was the blur, which yea is annoying, and heavy breathing.

i have to say that heavy breathing is an awesome feature even though some people even moan about that. it's very immersive when you are covering your friend while he places mines on a road in a valley and when he arrives after running up the hill you hear him breath heavy. i can't really see how removing that would improve the experience in anyway.

aside from the blur i don't see a real difference to arma 2 except that the normal jog is slower and the sprint is faster.

i already use the load and fatigue system in my mod and am very grateful for it. and i find it quite annoying how this quickly turned into "no fatigue" vs "ACE fatigue". there is already a middle ground. it's called arma 3.

sure it might need some tweaking and the blur should be removed, if you ask me, but it's certainly better than those silly gear limiting ideas.

and also i'm pretty sure dayZ SA will have some effects of weight on your character. in fact to me it makes even more sense in a game like dayZ than in arma so i don't really get the remark about it.

[Smurf 12]

A nice article related to the subject: http://kitup.military.com/2013/05/making-marines-middle-weight-fighters.html#more-24188

One staff sergeant, superbly conditioned and a veteran of numerous deployments, put it candidly.

“You can’t [expletive] fight if you can’t [expletive] move, or if you’re exhausted. Listen dog, we’re in awesome shape but if [the helicopter] sets us down too [expetive] far out, or in the wrong [expletive] place, and we have to run a couple hundred meters to hit a house, I’m smoked and so are my Marines.â€

[Tonci87 163]

The ACE System was very unforgiving and restrictive around launch. They really improved it to the point where you just have to be carefull not to take too much stuff with you. Aprox. 35kg is still fine and you can run for a very long time. It also depends on the unit you play. MG Gunners have more stamina than a rifle man for example. I think this is a very cool thing.

[ratszo 17]

Fatigue and encumbrance system is part of A3.

Set your own parameters or join a server configed to your preferance.

In a PvP fight, fatigue limits load-out. A limited load-out means soldiers need to make hard choices on gear.

Light infantry don't get to run around with a 100kg kit; not every soldier has a stack of rockets at hand.

To each his own. All Bis has to do is offer the choice.

[chortles 263]

Listen dog, we’re in awesome shape but if [the helicopter] sets us down too [expetive] far out, or in the wrong [expletive] place, and we have to run a couple hundred meters to hit a house

This is why the whole idea of punitive fatigue to somehow force teamwork and coordinating vehicle transportation sounds so hollow... in Arma I work from the premise that the insert/infiltration will go wrong in the manner that the staff sergeant describes. Edited May 9, 2013 by Chortles

[xyberviri 1]

Another fine example of how attempting to emulate real life TOO much will simply end up being more annoying than gratifying to most gamers. So what, now I'm expected to have to WALK a kilometer? Who has the time for this, honestly. Sorry but I tend to agree with the OP in cases like this.

Don't understand why the devs love to listen to the top 200-300 hardcore players when instead they should be hiring local focus groups who never played the game before. Realism is one thing but reality is another... it's as if they're trying to shoot themselves in the foot...nobody I know wants to play this anymore :-(

Maybe they need to make 2 versions...1 for the hardcore fans who have the time to play 20 hours a week...and another more fun version for the rest of us, heh.

Because those players go on skype then tell everyone in the alpha server chat to vote their issue/suggestion up.

Those "hardcore" players are the ones that can bring the numbers to the forums because they rally their clan to the cause, most casual gamers dont have a clan let alone a goal they just want a game.

most of them wont visit the forums, the number of users here is just the tip compared to the number of players that will never see this forum heck let alone this post.

[Smurf 12]

The thing is: unlimited jog with "the best loadout" (M107+Javelin) shouldn't exist. Blackout because you took "the best loadout" shouldn't exist either, this is a game afterall and who want more hardcore stuff should appeal to mods. A middleground must be found.

Here is what I suggest:

The parameters he have (or I think we do... or should have):

• Weight (W): Don't need explanations. Should have a maximum value and other that makes the soldier jog for *almost* unlimited time.
  
• Volume (V): It's ingame yet? Max volume =\= Max weight. Some things ocupy more space even when they're not so heavy.
  
• Stamina (S): The pool of "force" you have, once that goes empty you can only jog in a slower speed (not walk). It fills faster when you are stationary in crouch or prone position.
  
• Breath (B): Burns and recovery faster than Stamina. Determines how much time you can hold your breath or how long you can sprint at once.
  
• Speed (Sp): Dictates how fast you can go in each movement "mode" and how fast you perform an action. A naked guy should be the fastest, an overloaded dude should have the slower, proportional at each "mode".
  

So:

• 
  
• B is affected by higher Sp.
  
• Once B rouns out (and you can't sprint no more) S start to burn at a rate dictated by W.
  
• Sp is affected by W (more) and V (less, but to an extend)
  

About default loadouts:

• 
  
• Any frontline unit (rifleman, grenadier, auto rifleman, team leader, light AT) should have a decent Sp and B value and shouldn't end S with it's default loadout.
  
• Support units (machinegunner, heavy AT,medic, engie) should have a slighty lower Sp and B; S runs out after a good while, shouldn't be a problem with little pauses or vehicles.
  
• SF units have a higher threshold but follow the same rules.
  

Go figure out what are the V and W numbers for that, and equations taking all of that in consideration is possible.

Good? Bad? Overcomplicated? Doable? Screw it and let's have fun? :j:

EDIT: Oh yeah, it works pretty well in RO2 but in a simpler way and scaled to the map size\gameplay of that game.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Smurf

[Wolfstriked 11]

Not really hard to tweak it for difficulty but leave option to leave it like it is,sans blur,for servers that choose to go that route.

[Montanaro 0]

If you are walking any long distances in game, then you obviously chose a mission that was designed to take a long time.

Otherwise, there should be transport for you.

I don't buy the complaint

[Wolfstriked 11]

The penalty of heavier gear causing faster stamina depletion is great for the game.Its causing heavier soldier to arrive at destination slower due to shorter sprint.But I understand the OP complaint as the blur and blackened edges of screen should not be happening when jogging and should be extreme exertion effect only.Maybe a way to give lighter characters an edge is to have a little stamina regain when jogging that allows a short sprint while heavier characters do not get any stamina regain while jogging.

[ceeeb 147]

I like the current fatigue system, I think it's a big step forward from older games. The effects are subtle, but currently stance, encumbrance and terrain all affect fatigue in the dev build. With the new getFatigue command, we can get some idea of how it works:

0 is no fatigue, 1 is complete exhaustion.

Effect of carried gear (all jogging on flat runway) - averaged over 5 seconds

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: left]

[tr]

[td]Description[/td]

[td]Fatigue change(/s)[/td]

[td]Time to exhaustion[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]BLUFOR Naked (No uniform, weapons or gear):[/td]

[td]0.00170[/td]

[td]9:48[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]BLUFOR (rifle, 3 mags and uniform only)[/td]

[td]0.00263[/td]

[td]6:20[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]BLUFOR Rifleman[/td]

[td]0.00288[/td]

[td]5:47[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]BLUFOR Auto Rifleman[/td]

[td]0.00289[/td]

[td]5:46[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]BLUFOR Medic[/td]

[td]0.00307[/td]

[td]5:26[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]BLUFOR AT Rifleman[/td]

[td]0.00334[/td]

[td]5:00[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]BLUFOR Explosives expert[/td]

[td]0.00343[/td]

[td]4:52[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]BLUFOR Rambo (maximum load)[/td]

[td]0.00438[/td]

[td]3:48[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Effect of slope (all BLUFOR rifleman, jogging) - these are pretty rough, as constant slopes are rare and average times have to be short

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: left]

[tr]

[td]Description[/td]

[td]Fatigue change(/s)[/td]

[td]Time to exhaustion[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]-30°[/td]

[td]0.0172[/td]

[td]0:58[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]-12.5°[/td]

[td]0.000485[/td]

[td]34:22[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]-8°[/td]

[td]0.00150[/td]

[td]11:07[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]-5°[/td]

[td]0.00246[/td]

[td]6:46[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]0°[/td]

[td]0.00288[/td]

[td]5:47[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]+5°[/td]

[td]0.00356[/td]

[td]4:58[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]+8°[/td]

[td]0.00402[/td]

[td]4:09[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]+12.5°[/td]

[td]0.00600[/td]

[td]2:27[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]+30°[/td]

[td]0.0223[/td]

[td]0:45[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Effect of stance/movement mode (all BLUFOR rifleman on flat runway, weapon readied) - averaged over 5 seconds

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: left]

[tr]

[td]Description[/td]

[td]Fatigue change(/s)[/td]

[td]Time to full/no exhaustion[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Prone, not moving[/td]

[td]-0.05[/td]

[td]0:20 (recovery)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Crouch, not moving[/td]

[td]-0.0354[/td]

[td]0:28 (recovery)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Stand, not moving[/td]

[td]-0.0201[/td]

[td]0:50 (recovery)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Prone, "walking"[/td]

[td]0.00380[/td]

[td]4:23[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Crouch, walking[/td]

[td]0.00190[/td]

[td]8:46[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Stand, walking[/td]

[td]-0.005[/td]

[td]3:20 (recovery)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Prone, "jogging"[/td]

[td]0.00575[/td]

[td]2:54[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Crouch, jogging[/td]

[td]0.00575[/td]

[td]2:54[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Standing, jogging[/td]

[td]0.00288[/td]

[td]5:47[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Prone, tactical pace (it exist!?!)[/td]

[td]0.00384[/td]

[td]4:20[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Crouch, tactical pace[/td]

[td]0.00575[/td]

[td]2:54[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Stand, tactical pace[/td]

[td]0.00575[/td]

[td]2:54[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Prone, "sprinting"[/td]

[td]0.0386[/td]

[td]0:26 (ignoring that player cant sprint when fatigue > 0.5) [/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Crouch, sprinting[/td]

[td]0.0192[/td]

[td]0:52 (ignoring that player cant sprint when fatigue > 0.5)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Standing, sprinting[/td]

[td]0.0192[/td]

[td]0:52 (ignoring that player cant sprint when fatigue > 0.5)[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Edited May 10, 2013 by ceeeb

[Smurf 12]

So there you go, my post is useless.

[metalcraze 290]

I tried running across hills for minutes and still get no blur effect so I have no idea where people see it.

If you are walking any long distances in game, then you obviously chose a mission that was designed to take a long time.

Otherwise, there should be transport for you.

I don't buy the complaint

Exactly

[-Coulum- 35]

So there you go, my post is useless.

I like the idea you put out - especially the fact that there is two types of "energy" - breath and stamina. But yes it looks like BIS already got their own plans.

@ceeb thanks for the data. by "exhaustion" you just mean that fatigue is at level 1 though correct? Because I haven't been able to get any other effects than weapons sway and heavy breathing when running around.

Based on the figures you posted I would have to say that BIS is doing it wrong so far (well imo of course they probably know better than me). Basically they are saying that after 9 minutes of jogging with nothing on you will be as tired as physically possible. That's crap, and although it doesn't have an effect on anything because a fatigue level of 1 doesn't really have any effects so far, I think it limits their options for making a better system. Basically they need to make the fatiguing process take much longer with a much larger range of severity of negative effects. That way reaching level 1 fatigue with nothing on could literally take hours, but the effects of doing so will be quite sever (ridiculous weapons sway, forced walk, etc.)

[chortles 263]

And therein lies the problem -- whether or not they're doing it wrong by our evaluation is irrelevant as far as the actual development go because "devs gonna dev", but what is their evaluation on which these are based?