Arma 2: Operation Arrowhead - Radial Command Menu

[wamingo 1]

no sorry, I was talking to carl.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

No, I'm not looking to "replace" the number system either. But I want all commands in there with exception of 2-Target (not feasible) and 6-Actions (handled differently), so I don't ever have to use the number system again. Those who like it will still be able to.

The number of slots isn't the problem, but the number of angles. I can't tell with a 10 angle system as I have never tried it. But I worked with a 8 angle 2 ring system and that worked very good for me. And it obviously gives more slots than a 10 slot system that have to rely on expanding slots.

But, coming to think of it, having support for expanding slots would be nice (and one or two ring systems), fully moddable. That way we could all make systems we'd all be happy with.

@Richey79: It looks "neat", but it still forces me to read what's on it. And it would take a ton of them to cover all of the number menus abilities, which should be the end goal. As a quick command alternative, maybe (since it's less intrusive).

Here is how my idea actually takes place in Arma using its dialog system.

Picture #1. Context sensitivity. When you have no units selected, you only get the boxes that doesn't require you to have any units selected. Makes the interface tidy. Also note the custom commands, assign left to blue and assign right to blue. One click, without hitting i.e. F2, F4, F6, F8. Color coding makes it obvious what you're doing. Tooltips help. Symbols could replace text, or both, even shows the number menu shortcut. Note that "select xxx team" commands doesn't actually work, it's one of them "lacking low level commands things". You'd still have to use Shift+F2 or whatever.

Picture #2. Since you now have selected units, the context sensing would show more relevant options. In other menus maybe take them away, who knows. Assign selected (to three teams) and unassign wouldn't make sense with no units selected, so why show them?

Picture #3. Formations. Are you in an aggressive mode or on patrol? Color coding (red obviously means aggressive :)) makes you look in the right direction immediately. Are you going "frontal assault"? There there is no sense in looking on the sides, is there? Also here, tooltips used to describe everything, and graphics showing the actual formations. It even shows you the current formation, by using a white text color (ok, so white on yellow was a bit yucky, but you get the point :)). Click anywhere outside a colored box to cancel (but I still think my RMB drag and let go to select would be far quicker). Note that this is Tactical View, and how the campfire (which I was pointing at with the cursor) is sent to the script. Means that in G-Gear and interaction compass, I could order them to "light fire" (hopefully, not tested). Too bad I can only get center of screen position, which makes this less useful in Squad Command view.

Pretty? Hell no. Forget the colors btw, they are from a color scheme from another dialog.

Intrusive? I guess you would loose some immersion over it, yes.

Effective? I like to think so.

Aid for new players? That was the intent. Lots of complaints about the number system and how it has "too many commands". Commands that we need, but should be easier to access for the new guy.

Tidy? These two are pretty tidy, but there will be more complex ones using a lot more slots.

[Yoma 0]

Something that would be usefull is more context sensitive stuff when having selected squadmembers.

So you could easily order ai's to stack up against a wall, use a vehicle for cover, blabla.

Even better would be if these commands would be "sticky" so you could easily order a group of men to use a moving tank for cover.

It could also be used for rearming (select group of ai's, rmb on crate, ai's run to crate and you get a popup with contents of crate and drag drop to different members).

[RavoC 10]

I think it's great how it is, though if you change it the Unreal Engine 3.0 games like Rainbow Six Vegas 1/2 and America's Army 3 use this simple button and then it gets a menu where the mouse to the left is something, right is something else.. etc etc. so it's like holding a button and move your mouse in a direction. Only makes it faster/easier though I think you can't store millions of commands and I don't have a problem, just learn the codes and commanding is as easy as it can get! :)

*PS EDIT*

Just like Wamingo posted above here.. :D

[NoRailgunner 0]

It would break missions and their atmosphere if you have to use such an multi-colored radial interface - even worse if its pop-up in the center of the screen and stopping all ongoing things until all orders are done/accepted.

I would say keep the current system, improve the context sensitive features, add some things eg customizing formations etc and make some better tutorial/training missions. No need for making consolish interfaces and signs if its an pc game.

[Binkowski 25]

Some interesting posts making suggestions about the Arma2:PR command interface, including quite a clean interface someone started making:

http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f440-pr-arma2-general-discussion/77887-arma2-q-8.html

(The interesting stuff's on page 8 of the thread).

Oh man, Project Reality is coming to the rescue of us all.

[RavoC 10]

Woow that PR mod looks really nice, they made the battlefield spawn thingy. PVP will come back, yaaaay!! :D :D

[Jawz4 10]

i like to still be able to move/shoot/fly while giving commands, so no, no radial menu, i played OFDR i've crashed several times while trying to give my squad commands like ROE and formation. but when i play Arma i can survive a bit longer due to still being able to do other things while giving my squad commands, and the command menu is not hard at all, 1 has to do with movement, 2 is targets, 3 has to do with ROE, 4 is getting into vehicles, 5 is status', shall i go on?

[shadowze 1]

Jeez , OP musta had a head injury to think this idea would ever fly

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Old thread by now, but...

@Jawz4: The suggestion wouldn't interfere with your preferred way of doing things. Only add alternative methods to those who have problems with it.

@shadowze: Yeah bash those who comes with fresh ideas to the game. Did you bother to read the whole thread or just the first and last post?

[SpyderPB6 10]

In reply to the original post. I like the current menus. They seem much faster than what could be offered through a radial command menu. Once you're playing for a while they become very easy to memorize and execute quickly.

[Niotna 10]

Why not just build both and give players the choice?

Can't be too hard to program, no? I personally like radial menu. Very practical.

I am convinced that the more liberty players have in a game, the better it gets.

Beside that, I wanna say I don't like any taboo. So, if mentioning the name of BATTLEFIELD is a problem, then there is something seriously wrong. I suggest BI better learn from any other game to make the ARMA series even better than they are today.

One of the things they might do for a start, is give us the opportunity to group our team with the standard controls CTRL+1, CTRL+2, etc... like they use in RTS (Real Time Strategy) games. That would be a lot easier and more intuintive, it seems to me. Also extra icons of the different groups could appear so that selecting them becomes easier. Keeping the colors for grouping team members, like with the 9 button choice menu; the way it is now, is very good, and might be kept. Even more colors could be added, because with CTRL+... one has 10 choices. Also would it help to show the different teams on the map in their according colors, to make commanding easier.

[LJF 0]

Would be cool but most assuredly wouldn't work.

[Baff1 0]

I order my commands without even looking at the damn menu, its not that hard guys ;)

Actually, it is.

It's taken years for me to learn to do that. When my mates come over and play with me, none of them know it.

And some of the options are situationally dependendant. So getting a guy to heal another guy might depend on how many are injured or if their is an ammo crate or a door nearby as to which command sequence I type.

Radial is good. Especially if it can be as fluid as the one in Cryisis rather than a dicky keyboard interface one like in OpF 2.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Baff1

[NeMeSiS 11]

Radial is good. Especially if it can be as fluid as the one in Cryisis rather than a dicky keyboard interface one like in OpF 2.

The idea of having to go through >100 options in a radial menu makes me want to cry.

Hell i already hated the menu in crysis, if you used the keyboard switching between modes was much easier. Ever tried to run up to someone in speed mode, then change to strength mode to punch him? Unnecessarily slow with the mouse.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

So use the regular complex menu system, like you're used to. In all these years I have only managed to memorize a few. And there is nothing intuitive about the numbers - no "rules of thumb" to aid memorizing, and most certainly no motoric memorizing. The ones I do know, I use frequently.

Even todays complex menu system could use a tune up; put in some color codings and/or images to illustrate what the commands actually are. Not that long ago I saw a discussion here where fairly experienced Arma/OFP gamers had little understanding about some of the commands.

But the main problem with it will remain - the fact that you have to read what it says, then lookup (on the keyboard) the key to press. While running and scanning, yes. Using ctrl+f to bring up a formations radial, I find it a lot quicker (if setup right) than reading through the list of formations. What number is echelon right? In fact, what is echelon right (btw, I do know, but someone new might not)?

A radial could improve on that by using text, color, images, and tooltips. But it have to be designed right, be flexible enough so that players can change depending on their preference, and that I have not yet seen any game do well.

Last I checked I could still not use whatever key I wanted with a qualifier for simple addAction and userActionKey tests, as the nonqualified key will interfere, i.e. any combination of the 'f' key will cycle modes, even if I bind ctrl+'f' to something else. This and without access to lowlevel commands to execute the numbers, makes it impossible to experiment with a system that would work, and we'd only end up with a crappy radial that nobody would like.

Edit: Note that I'm talking about several 16-slot (max, by means of 8 "directions" in 2 "rings" - inner and outer) radials bound to keys, instead of one radial with submenus (already been proved to fail). If you wanted to, you could bind formations radial to the old '8' key if you wanted to, but I would prefer "something" with the F key since it deals with formations. Pluss, the free slots (new 16 > old 9) could be used for user macros if we wanted to, and/or would allow new commands that are sorely missing.

Edited July 12, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[ben_s 11]

I think the game would benifeit from having both.

A menu to contain each and every command. like we do now.

And then a radial like BF2 or "that other game", for more common commands, like regroup, hold fire, open fire, formations, engage, move etc...

So during battle its easy to give simple orders whilst not having to stop and go through a menu. Which is one thing i find really annoying. As you can't keep your weapon on a target, whilst you tell your team to "open fire", without mucking it up...

Then, they would have to get the actual menu correct. The old going through many submenu's is bad.. like in "that other game", ArmA II, with its many command, and the ammount of contex-sensitve commands, would need a new type of radial. But should still be easy to use, and quick to learn. As thats the point of a radial. And all suggestions ive seen here, just makes the radial a complex tool to use. It needs to keep it simple... like in BF2 or "that other game", as lets face it, you can give orders or commands very quickly in those games...

Edited July 13, 2010 by Ben_S

[CarlGustaffa 4]

And all suggestions ive seen here, just makes the radial a complex tool to use. It needs to keep it simple...

With my 16 slot suggestion and multiple radials, it can get as easy or as complex as you want it too yourself. Want a new radial if the suggested ones are too complex (one for formations, one for attack orders, one for move order etc)? Create one, assign it to ctrl+v or wherever, and drop the commands or scripts or macros you want where you want them. It has 16 slots possible, but you could use only 2 if that's what you wanted.

I.e. scan direction in Arma only have 8 directions, but if you wanted to you could create new scan direction "relative to" and put those in the outer ring. What is the process of getting a HMMWV M2 gunner to scan forward? That's right, get him out of the vehicle, order him to cancel target, then order him back in, job done. Or, we could give him order to "watch your own vehicle", that will also work - but the command doesn't exist and there is no room for it in the number system. A new system could allow scripters to order himself to do stuff, something we can't do in the current system. I.e. switching between normal and stealth (affects voice). The number system is depleted, no more room for anything new.

Flexibility would be the key, but commands needs to be made available for scripters to use (what's the scripting command for "flank left" i.e?), and the key interference problem would have to be fixed (can't use "ctrl+f" since that will also trigger "cycle mode" which is assigned to "f").

But yeah, both. First radial attempts would probably fail and we'd had to streamline it with time.

Edited July 14, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[Nicholas 5]

Perhaps you should simply get used to the interface? I've been playing since OFP and I have had to get used to it. It takes some time, but after a while, you'll get used to it. I can remember quite a few of the commands yet from OFP.

With the new interface in ArmA 2 it was so much better. But I had to get used to that too. Honestly, it's not hard to remember a few important keystrokes as 0-5-5. You'll eventually get used to it.

[twisted 127]

having read through the thread - it seems to me the radial system is a bandaid for a more serious symptom in arma.

the problem is that the current system doesn't allow for fluid on the spot commanding that would be very useful in aram2.

things like - how to get an AI to gear at the exact right ammo box (assuming more than more is available) or how to get a group to take cover where you want them to (like behind a wall)? or get 3 AI to assault a position from the left flank while the rest provide suppression? (takes a lot of micromanagement right now.) these are basic things that would add a lot more feeling of control and less frustration.

solution? a more context sensitive command menu imo would be a simple effective solution. one that would take into consideration what you have selected (1 AI gets different commands than a group would) and what is nearest what you are pointing at.

also what would be very GOOD would be easy customisation of the menu including linking what is being pointed at on screen.

[Flash Thunder 10]

having read through the thread - it seems to me the radial system is a bandaid for a more serious symptom in arma.

the problem is that the current system doesn't allow for fluid on the spot commanding that would be very useful in aram2.

things like - how to get an AI to gear at the exact right ammo box (assuming more than more is available) or how to get a group to take cover where you want them to (like behind a wall)? or get 3 AI to assault a position from the left flank while the rest provide suppression? (takes a lot of micromanagement right now.) these are basic things that would add a lot more feeling of control and less frustration.

solution? a more context sensitive command menu imo would be a simple effective solution. one that would take into consideration what you have selected (1 AI gets different commands than a group would) and what is nearest what you are pointing at.

also what would be very GOOD would be easy customisation of the menu including linking what is being pointed at on screen.

Voice commands will be the future, until then I think the radial commanding would still be a nice addition.

[Nicholas 5]

There is a free program that allows you to control your AI members by voice command. It was called PiLfIuS.

[BrassEm 0]

There is a free program that allows you to control your AI members by voice command. It was called PiLfIuS.

The Speech Recognition in Windows 7 works well. You need to download the macro tool from MSDN (WSRMacros) to create the menu macros, but it can accommodate any number of new key command sequences in game through voice command. It would be up to BIS to widen the scope of the commands available with the corresponding key sequence. (But doesn't help the purpose of this thread.)

Edited July 30, 2010 by BrassEm

[ben_s 11]

Voice commands will be the future, until then I think the radial commanding would still be a nice addition.

Theres only 2 types of games Voice Commands are worth. Flight Simulators, for AWACS, Wingmen and Radio Towers. And for Military Simulators, for your squad, teammates and high-command. Neither seem to get them. :confused:

[Tonmeister 14]

There are already much more sophisticated methods for addressing multiple commands in A2 and doesn't require a cumbersome radial command gui to be the fixer in any way.