Arma 2: Operation Arrowhead - Radial Command Menu

[stakex 0]

Perhaps you should simply get used to the interface? I've been playing since OFP and I have had to get used to it. It takes some time, but after a while, you'll get used to it. I can remember quite a few of the commands yet from OFP.

With the new interface in ArmA 2 it was so much better. But I had to get used to that too. Honestly, it's not hard to remember a few important keystrokes as 0-5-5. You'll eventually get used to it.

Heres the problem with such statements: You assume everyone who plays ArmA2 is a hardcore player who is going to spend a decent amount of time memorizing all the comands and learning how to command units... however, what about casual players? What about new players who could very well be put off by the cumbersom, antiquated, and not to mention poorly explained command system in ArmA2? People seem to forget not everyone plays as much as they do, or is dedicated enough to learn a system thats as big a mess as the current ArmA2 command system. It might be nice and easy to say "Oh well, then they can go play *insert generic shooter here*!"... but without new customers there are no more BIS games to play. So the more user friendly the games, the more popular they will be and the more chance that BIS will keep making ArmA games.

Thus, I think the command system is one of the areas BIS should put a good deal of effort into. Right now it has a very un-polished feel to it, and while old time OFP players will view it as an improvement, new players will think its a mess. I'm not so sure a radial menu would be the best way to go about fixing it, tho I don't think it would be impossible to pull off. People seem to over estimate just how complex the command system really is, or don't realize just how much can be done with a small radial menu if its designed right. With that said, a simpler solution would also work. Personally I think a slightly streamlined, far better organized, better presented, and better explained system would requier less work and accomplish the same goal. At the very least the overall presentation and explination needs to be better to make the game a touch easier for new players to get into.

[fencr0c 10]

voted no, the current use of numbers for the command system is quicker to use, cleaner and ulitmately more flexible whilst remaning consistent. The command rose would have to have many "sub-menus" to cater for the dynamic content.

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

I voted no. Radial command menu would get very confusing if you started using the addaction command for anything.

[LeadCommando65 10]

Certainly voted no.

1) A radial command menu would mean to reduce the number of possibilities in order to have still a clear screen instead of a screen overloaded with buttons because you need to have all functions available.

2) Numbers are tapped in faster than navigating with your mouse. Once you have the numbers in mind and can tap in them blind, the system is much faster than a radial command menu.

3) The current system doesn't block your view. I have always had a bad feeling when using the radial command menu in BF2: you couldn't shoot or exactly see what's going on.

4) It's OFP style

[4 IN 1 0]

The old menu is good for its use, which is about complex order, yet the new "content senstive menu" aint, its hard to use as fuck when in combat where everybody go caveman style and even worst it cover up the old complex order menu, which makes it rather pointless, I personally kind of support a radial command menu for some basic order, hell, even a Close Combat style drop off menu would be many times better then the current one. And if you dont see where the problem is it may just simply because you dont understand the word "efficiency" means?

Edited August 1, 2010 by 4 IN 1

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@fencr0c:

The current num command system is already a menu, only difference is that it isn't laid out as a radial but a list. And it contains sub menus. Being a list instead of positions, means you have to read through the list instead of looking only where you know the item might be located. Direction scanning i.e.; isn't east on a radial more intuitive than some number in a list, and way quicker to find? Each radial with a maximum 16 slots could be bound to keys that "makes sense", rather than some arbitrary number. Ctrl+f for formations rather than 8 which is hard to remember. A 16 slot radial (max, could have empty positions) has more space than the current system, and wouldn't have to have any submenus. If it had, it would fail the "being speedy" test.

Also, the current system stays. Once you learn it it's good, fast, but most of us will only learn a few of the commands by heart. When we want to use a command we know we don't know the sequence for, we'd use the radial instead.

@TechnoTerrorist303:

And "Open door" "Open door" "Open door" in the current numeric command isn't confusing? I've come up with some suggestions to "make it work" with actions, but only in a limited sense.

@LeadCommando65:

1) Reduce? On the contrary, it expands the possibilities. See my images; there are new commands in that the current system doesn't have room for.

2) Only once you know them by heart. And as I said above, you'll only memorize a selected few. Before that you're staring at a list, reading all the entries up and down until you find what you're looking for. See the images, the radial also shows the num sequence which would aid the newcomers. It is an alternative method to present the complex menu, targeted especially at the newcomers, it doesn't replace anything already there.

3) True, but before you have memorized the codes you're staring at the list. Also GUI elements can be made as transparent as we want them.

---

But, I'd like to address even the current num system. How to make it better:

1) Colored list items. Offensive orders being red. Defensive being green. Neutral being yellow. Unclassified being grey. Team orders should be coded with the respective team color.

2) Line drawing utilized when highlighting items in the list via the mouse wheel. With unit #2 selected, a line from you AND #2 unit is drawn to whatever target is selected in the target menu. Same for actions; a line from you AND #2 unit is drawn to whatever item is selected in the actions menu - will show you WHAT door is active, or WHERE you want #2 to rearm at.

What is line drawing? Same stuff that goes on when you order a unit to go to a position within a house. Why TWO lines? It shows position relative to your position and from the selected units position, AND gives an indication where both the unit and the item/target is; Unit will be at the other end of the other line, item/target will be at the apex of the two lines. If there was only a line between him and the item, you wouldn't know which end belonged to the unit and what end belonged to the target/item.

The "Interact" item in the quick command should be used the same way. Select a unit, hold space to open the quick command, and if you point at a crate the interact is highlighted with lines going from you and the selected unit(s), to that item. Unit(s) because here the system should allow multiple units be be selected (doesn't work in the actions num list).

Same for the "Get In" quick command - use lines to point at the vehicle it secretly indicates. Too often I order the guys to get in after I have entered, only to see them enter the wrong vehicle. NO lines would mean you have YOUR vehicle selected.

Edited August 1, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[Pain0815 10]

Radial menue would be shit in my eyes.

Reasons:

-to much commands in Arma for this (at every numberkey you have like 6-10 commands in it so arma has about 70+ commands)

-i can order my units in arma with numberkey while im walking and shooting, in such a radial menue i would need to stop shooting or walking to give orders, that just sucks

I hope they dont implement such a crappy menue like in opfdr, because its just bad.

I dont want search hours in a radialmenue for one of my 70 commands while im not able to move or shoot back at the same time i give orders to my units.

So a big NO from me

After you get familiar with commanding your troops in arma, and you know the most important number combinations for your pourposes. Then its the best way to order ai units.

its faster and better then anything.

As example:

Unit behavior

I know that i find those commands under number 7, so switching your units you only need to use (7-1,7-2,7-3) commands, thats it...

just 2 buttons

In OPFDR i need to:

-Find cover, because there you cant do anything while giving orders to your troops

-klicking me through radial menues and sub menues to find my command

this takes some time

Edited August 1, 2010 by Pain0815

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

@TechnoTerrorist303:

And "Open door" "Open door" "Open door" in the current numeric command isn't confusing? I've come up with some suggestions to "make it work" with actions, but only in a limited sense.

Yes it's really confusing and things like that certainly need looking at but a radial type menu would actually become a hinderance if you are playing a mission that creates loads of extra actions for the user. Can you imagine a mission where you have several air support options, soccerboy's artillery support script and you're standing next to a door? What would a radial menu look like then?

Re your "open door" example. Why the hell you don't only have the ability to open the door you're in contact with beats me.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Custom mission specific radial? I doubt a mission will have more than 16 actions. I can't imagine any mission where you order an AI to do the kinds of actions you give as examples, these tend to be player actions and will even most of the time fail to work if you try to access these actions using AI action commanding. Would be up to mission maker if he wanted to use regular actions or custom mission specific radial. He can even do that now as many already do; a radial is nothing more than a gui interface menu. The biggest current hindrance to experimenting with the idea in the first place, is lack of low level commands in the scripting language and key system bugs (ref my earlier posts on this).

Or possibly use the communication menu for support options? That would feel like the most natural solution, as you need to communicate with other parts of the force for it to happen. This only works for the player though, but it should be possible to check if "AI having the possibility meets certain criteria", and base show/no show on that.

Or as in my example (since this is about commanding AI after all) you define where in the "Gear and Interaction radial" a certain action would appear. Context sensitivity - one radial could deal with all kinds of "lights"; AI in vehicle - "Turn on light" (goes to "turn off light" if already on); pointing at a campfire - "Light fire", etc. Notice it also have a few "free slots" in case you don't really know where to put them, i.e. in the rare event you want an AI to ask for air support.

[LeadCommando65 10]

@LeadCommando65:

1) Reduce? On the contrary, it expands the possibilities. See my images; there are new commands in that the current system doesn't have room for.

2) Only once you know them by heart. And as I said above, you'll only memorize a selected few. Before that you're staring at a list, reading all the entries up and down until you find what you're looking for. See the images, the radial also shows the num sequence which would aid the newcomers. It is an alternative method to present the complex menu, targeted especially at the newcomers, it doesn't replace anything already there.

3) True, but before you have memorized the codes you're staring at the list. Also GUI elements can be made as transparent as we want them.

1) Sorry, I don't understand how it will be expanding the possibilites. I've viewed your examples but I can't see more possibilities: Ok, you have context sensitivity, but what more? The way I could imagine this would be that you have levels to click or more buttons. But this would overload the whole radial system and slow it down.

2) I'll also be staring at the radial GUI and will be searching for the right command, if I'm not used to it. Maybe it's a good a addition for newcomers (cause you can click and use it like a windows menu). But how come they will use the actual radio system if they don't have to? (even if you show them the codes) Additionally, it's not that hard to memorize the codes (will be a little brain practice, too ;) ). The commands are reasonable grouped together by topics (first number you press).

3) I would say, that even increasing transparency won't help much: There's still something on the whole screen, which requires your focus. But if you just have a small side menu, the whole screen is free to look at. Even if you are staring at the left side, you still have peripheral vision of the center of your screen.

Moreover, numbers are a more distinct way to command. Having a radial menu, means to be using the mouse. The chance to misclick the buttons is much higher (even if you are talking about newcomers). It takes more time to move the mouse at the right button (and hit it, too). When you are under pressure, you are nervous and maybe make more mistakes. I think it's safer to use numbers and keys because one can hit the same key on the keyboard more often than clicking with the mouse the exact same location (and that's amplified in combat situation and for new users).

[Engioc 10]

I'm voting no on this one, I think the current system with numbers is pretty good and not that complicated to use. Regardless of the style of menus its still the same commands and you still need to remember where they are. In fact with the current system in A2 once you get the hang of it you can hand out commands very easily and quickly without even looking at the menu.

I think no matter how you do it there will still be problems and the radial system doesn't seem very well suited to the number of commands A2 has.

---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 AM ----------

Here is my compass menu idea in full graphics :) If the image doesn't work, try accessing it from here. Sorry for the horrible quality, but I think we all know the reason :) Btw, I do not have the preview version, just borrowed image from web to make sure I got good visibility. Also tested against black, white, sky blue, and NVG green with good results.

Please tell me that this looks more intuitive and easier to use than having to fiddle with the number menu system. Hold a qualifier key while RMB draggin to select, it couldn't be more simple. These are only my own personal ideas on where I would put formations, it should be configurable for users to suit their own game style. Old schoolers could simply choose not to use it, and use the number system instead. But I seriously think this system would help many new gamers, given the incredible amount of options we are given compared to arcade shooters.

Without the graphics, here is also the full list of current Arma2 commands, except "attack orders from menu 2", as the quick command (space) and squad control (num ,) modes already works for these. The action orders from menu 6 would be obsolete with this system as well, as they would be covered by a "dynamic compass" in the "gear and interact compass".

All commands grouped in what I think feels a sensible fashion:

Overview over predefined (default) but customizable keys
W - Attack or battle orders.
S - Scanning and watching orders.
F - Formations.
T - Team assignment system and team switching.
E - Engagement rules and squad security.
G - Gearing, vehicle interaction, and object interaction.
R - Reports and support system.
? - Anything future stuff, addon based of whatever. Just a blank template to experiment with.

The beauty is you don't have to let go your regular control keys and look for the number.
The compass system recognizes that you are holding W, but won't interfere until you hold RMB and starts dragging.
It is "big and ugly", but it gets the job done instantly, highly intuitive, and extremely graphical.
Remember, these boxes can be color coded or be coupled with graphics (i.e. for formations).

W - Attack or battle orders.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   |  ATTACK   |                                     
                                   | ENEMY OR  |                                     
         +-----------+             | POSITION  |             +-----------+           
         | ASSAULT   |             |           |             | ASSAULT   |           
         |  LEFT     |             +-----------+             |  RIGHT    |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | TARGET    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+| ENEMY OR  |+-----------+                        
                      | BOUNDING  ||           || ADVANCE   |                        
                      | ON        || POSITION  ||           |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |(NEW STYLE)|             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
| FLANK     |     | FIND      |     |           |     | NEXT      |     | FLANK     | 
| LEFT      |     | COVER     |     |           |     |           |     | RIGHT     | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     | WAYPOINT  |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      | BOUNDING  |             | SUPPRESS  |                        
                      | OFF       |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           || STAY BACK ||           |                        
                      |(OLD STYLE)||           ||           |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | STOP      |             +-----------+             | WAIT      |           
         |           |                                       | FOR ME    |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | RETURN TO |             +-----------+           
                                   | FORMATION |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
S - Scanning and watching orders.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   |  WATCH    |                                     
                                   |  NORTH    |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | WATCH     |             |           |             | WATCH     |           
         | NORTH     |             +-----------+             | NORTH     |           
         | WEST      |                                       | EAST      |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | WATCH     |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+| AHEAD     |+-----------+                        
                      | WATCH     ||           || SCAN      |                        
                      | DIRECTION ||           || HORIZON   |                        
                      |           |+-----------+| HIGH      |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
| WATCH     |     | WATCH     |     |           |     | WATCH     |     | WATCH     | 
| WEST      |     | LEFT      |     |           |     | RIGHT     |     | EAST      | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      | WATCH     |             | SCAN      |                        
                      | OBJNULL   |+-----------+| HORIZON   |                        
                      |           || WATCH     || LOW       |                        
                      | :-)       || BACK      ||           |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | WATCH     |             +-----------+             | WATCH     |           
         | SOUTH     |                                       | SOUTH     |           
         | WEST      |                                       | EAST      |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             |  WATCH    |             +-----------+           
                                   |  SOUTH    |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
F - Formations.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   |  LINE     |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
         +-----------+             |   .....   |             +-----------+           
         |.   ECHELON|             |           |             |ECHELON   .|           
         | .    RIGHT|             +-----------+             |LEFT (NOT. |           
         |  .  (NOT A|                                       |A BUG   .  |           
         |   .   BUG)|             +-----------+             |       .   |           
         +-----------+             |  WEDGE    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+|    .      |+-----------+                        
                      | FILE      ||   . .     ||FIRETEAM   |                        
                      | (COLUMN   ||  .   .    ||BOX        |                        
                      | COMPACT): |+-----------+|      ::   |                        
                      |         : |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |          ^| 
| INCREASE  |     | DECREASE  |     |           |     | DECREASE ^|     | INCREASE  | 
|  SPREAD   |     |  SPREAD   |     |           |     |  SPEED?  ^|     |  SPEED?   | 
|<<--   -->>|     | -->> <<-- |     |           |     |           |     |          ^| 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      |    .   .  |             |DELTA   .  |                        
                      | VEE . .   |+-----------+|       . . |                        
                      |      .    || STAG    . ||        .  |                        
                      |           || COLUMN .  ||       . . |                        
                      +-----------+|         . |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |        .  |             +-----------+           
         | HERRING-  |             +-----------+             |  COIL     |           
         |  BONE     |                                       |           |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |(VEHICLES) |             +-----------+             | (VEHICLES)|           
         +-----------+             |         . |             +-----------+           
                                   | COLUMN  . |                                     
                                   |         . |                                     
                                   |         . |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
T - Team assignment system and team switching.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   | ASSIGN    |                                     
                                   | RED       |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | ASSIGN    |             |           |             | ASSIGN    |           
         | BLUE      |             +-----------+             | GREEN     |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | SELECT    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+| RED       |+-----------+                        
                      | SELECT    ||           || SELECT    |                        
                      | BLUE      ||           || GREEN     |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
| SWITCH    |     |  SWITCH   |     |           |     | SWITCH    |     |   TEAM    | 
| TO        |     |  TO PREV  |     |           |     | TO NEXT   |     |  SWITCH   | 
| SELECTED  |     |  UNIT     |     |           |     | UNIT      |     |  DIALOG   | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      | SELECT    |             | SELECT    |                        
                      | YELLOW    |+-----------+| WHITE     |                        
                      |           || SELECT    ||           |                        
                      |           || ALL       ||           |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | ASSIGN    |             +-----------+             | ASSIGN    |           
         | YELLOW    |                                       | WHITE     |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | UNASSIGN  |             +-----------+           
                                   | SELECTED  |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
E - Engagement and squad security.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   | STEALTH   |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | GO PRONE  |             |           |             | STAY      |           
         |           |             +-----------+             | CROUCHED  |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | DANGER    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
                      | OPEN      ||           || FIRE      |                        
                      | FIRE      ||           ||           |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
|           |     |  ENGAGE   |     |           |     | DISENGAGE |     | BREAK AND | 
| ENGAGE    |     |  AT WILL  |     |           |     |           |     |  EVADE?   | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      | HOLD      |             | HOLD      |                        
                      | FIRE      |+-----------+| FIRE      |                        
                      |           || AWARE     || MORE      |                        
                      |           ||           || (NEVER)?  |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | KEEP      |             +-----------+             | STAY UP   |           
         | LOW       |                                       |           |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | SAFE      |             +-----------+           
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
G - Gearing, vehicle interaction, and object interaction.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   | GET IN AS |                                     
                                   | COMMANDER |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | GET IN AS |             |           |             | GET IN AS |           
         | GUNNER    |             +-----------+             | DRIVER    |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | GET IN    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+| ANYWHERE  |+-----------+                        
                      | GET IN AS ||           || GET IN AS |                        
                      | LEFT GUN  ||           || RIGHT GUN |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
|HEAL AT    |     |RELOAD OR  |     |           |     |TOGGLE ENG |     |TOGGLE LGT | 
|OR DYNAMIC1|     |DYNAMIC 2  |     |           |     |(VEHICLE OR|     |(VEHICLE OR| 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |OBJECT) OR |     |OBJECT) OR | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |DYNAMIC 3  |     |DYNAMIC 4  | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      |  OPEN     |             | CLIMB     |                        
                      |  DOOR     |+-----------+| UP        |                        
                      |           || GET IN AS ||           |                        
                      |           ||  CARGO    || (LADDER)  |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         | CLOSE     |             +-----------+             | CLIMB     |           
         | DOOR      |                                       | DOWN      |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             | (LADDER)  |           
         +-----------+             | GEAR AT   |             +-----------+           
                                   | THIS      |                                     
                                   | VEHICLE   |                                     
                                   | OR OBJECT |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
R - Reports and support system.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   | REPORT    |                                     
                                   | TARGET    |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         |  INJURED  |             | (REVEAL)  |             |  UNDER    |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |  FIRE     |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             | REPORT    |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+| AUDIBLE   |+-----------+                        
                      | ONE LESS  || TARGET    || ... IS    |                        
                      |           ||           || DOWN      |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
|           |     | AMMO LOW  |     |           |     | FUEL LOW  |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      |  REAMMO   |             |  REFUEL   |                        
                      |  TRUCK    |+-----------+|  TRUCK    |                        
                      |           || REPAIR    ||           |                        
                      |           || TRUCK     ||           |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         | MEDIC     |                                       | AMBULANCE |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
                                   | SUPPORT   |                                     
                                   |  DONE     |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     
? - Anything future stuff, addon based of whatever. Just a blank template to experiment with.
                                   +-----------+                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         |           |             |           |             |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
                      |           ||           ||           |                        
                      |           ||           ||           |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
|           |     |           |     |           |     |           |     |           | 
+-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+     +-----------+ 
                      +-----------+             +-----------+                        
                      |           |             |           |                        
                      |           |+-----------+|           |                        
                      |           ||           ||           |                        
                      |           ||           ||           |                        
                      +-----------+|           |+-----------+                        
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |                                       |           |           
         |           |             +-----------+             |           |           
         +-----------+             |           |             +-----------+           
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   |           |                                     
                                   +-----------+                                     

I think I'm double posting here but man that looks terrible, no way would I want that thing poping up while I'm trying to hand out commands. Far too much screen space taken up and I find that more confusing to look at than the current system. Sorry no offense meant but if any new comers find that easier to use then they have some serious problems.

I have no problem with a quick menu being added in but I'd want it to be part of the current system, perhaps allow us a custom menu where each player can define what commands appear in it. That way if your having problems remembering a command you can just add it to your custom menu. eg I hit a key (which I also can assing/change) which brings up my own customized menu, but looks and works the same as the current system, and as part of the current system. To add commands to your menu that could be done before a game starts in the options menu. I think that would be better than trying to implement a whole new command system. Even then I wouldn't want BI to waste too much time on this, there are other things that need attention before they start worrying about the command system.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Engioc

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@LeadCommando65:

1) If you assigned the radials to the number keys, you could have 9 radials with 16 slots instead of the 9 slots we have today (excluding the "more" option which isn't available everywhere). 144 commands versus 81 = more :) The number system is already filled to the max, and we need some new useful commands that can't simply be plugged into the number system as it doesn't have the space for it. Could be anything from new vehicle formation types (coil, herringbone, whatever) to new commands that are lacking (assault right (like in OFP DR), or scan relative 45°, to a scripted version of "no target" to cancel scan for vehicle gunner instead of stopping, get him out, order the command, get him back in, then continue). It would have to support new commands or macros to be plugged in, but these would never be available using the number system naturally.

So, what more than context sensitivity indeed?

* More items per radial than num system had per menu (16 vs 9).

* Color and positional grouping in a logical fashion.

* Text, graphics, and maybe even tooltips.

* Motoric memory based rather than abstract memory based (quicker to learn).

2) Yes in the start it does take a little time getting used to. But it quickly develops into a motoric skill that the muscles memorizes. Mouse gestures are popular for a reason. This "sits deeper" than memorizing an arbitrary number sequence. It would be grouped with color codings and positions, and could have graphics as well to illustrate the command. Yes the idea was to get newcomers more quickly into the game, but reducing some of the frustrations. What they eventually "end up using" (numbers or radials) isn't important, what's important is that they find a way to get the job done. Personally I think I would use number system for some of the commands, and radials for others. I might even end up hating the idea in the end (especially if it doesn't meet my design criteria), but it's something that I'd like to try out the concept of (which I can't).

3) How it is presented is the least of my worries. There would be mods out that changes its appearance, removes unneeded graphics (if you only want textual feedback) etc making the radial more compact. Also, a key to this design was to avoid having to use the numbers and instead use the "regular keys" with a qualifier (limited/buggy possibility) and mouse gesture instead of actual clicking (no possibility, but I could live with clicking for now, just to test the idea). These are keys I can easily access without switching my eyes down on the keyboard looking for a key, then stretch my fingers to reach it. I'm not able to watch the screen while trying to reach the 8 key to change formations, followed by a read on the list to find the formation I'm looking for. Even now, I don't know the key combos to each formation. Hitting ctrl+f to open the menu, then "click" (for now, should be better eventually) on the formation box where I expect to find it, would be much faster, at least for me.

Being used to working with context sensitive and consistent radials, I know how lightning fast they can be if designed right. A clickable dialog in Arma ways would only be the first step (and I have already done it). Mis-clicking being a problem? The mouse pointer and "boxes" are clearly visible on the screen where you are already looking. Mis-"typing" is actually a greater problem for me. So I highly disagree with it taking more time than the number system (if you're not used to either). Especially since you develop a "sense" on where the item you're looking for is most likely to be located - you start looking there, instead of scanning the whole list. It is easy to hit the wrong key because they are close on the keyboard. It is impossible to hit the wrong "box" unless you actively hit that specific box.

The number system is old, completely locked in stone, and with the exception of three commands (suppress, file, and delta/diamond) it haven't evolved anything since OFP days. The quick command system is just that, quick. But it lacks the firepower to replace the number system, even if it is my preferred way at least under pressure. But when the pressure is off, the quick command system just isn't good enough to get things done, and we have to resort to a stone age num command system.

Again, users of the current number system wouldn't be affected at all. This would be "on the side" and highly experimental. "The perfect user interface" doesn't exist, and probably never will, so nobody should expect anything like this to work smoothly from the first implementation attempts. I don't think we will ever see it from BIS, but they could give us the low level commands so we can try out different approaches for ourselves.

@Engioc:

man that looks terrible

I know. I think I said so at the time that "forget how it looks". You're completely missing the point. From that "horrible looking example"; you want to switch to line formation. Where do you look after you have seen it once? At the bottom? No way, that doesn't make sense. By second nature you start dragging mouse upwards because you know that's where it would logically be. If not, you know it to be an "offensive formation" - red. Once you're used to it, you don't even have to look where you "click" - by now it's a mouse gesture that your arm muscle remembers. Until you do, at least you only have to look at the obvious places. Not so with that number list. Also it helps explain on the fly (using tooltips) what a certain formation is good for. Not everyone has military background.

Screen space? What does that have to do with anything? You're trying to get your men to do what you want. If it's a problem, use the num keys or use a mod that compresses it into a single line textual thing, like what I'm used to. Compared to that all I did was add color coding and graphical elements to aid describing the choices, especially useful for the new guys. Give me one new (typically from CoD/BF2) player without military experience who knows the difference between formations. Hell, there are even vets who don't know the difference between "fire" and "open fire" commands.

So, you're basing your negative feedback on a first brainstorming image instead of seeing where it might lead down the line. That kind of sucks. I do not know for sure if it works, but I would really like to give it a shot. I do know that OFP DR style radial, having to click through several nested levels of radials, failed miserably. I do know that the current num system has reached its limits - there is no room for new commands that could be extremely useful. I do know that AI control can't be done using action system - (unless you trick it) AI will be deselected when you open the action menu, and having the action show up in the AIs list of action is nuts as far as efficiency goes.

All I'm asking (for now) is:

1) Give us access to low level commands as pure scripting commands that works just the way they work when you actually give the AI an order using the num system.

2) Prevent interference with key combos. Ctrl+f should not switch fire modes. Ctrl+g should not open the gear menu.

Then I'll continue Dr. Frankensteins GUI work alone and in utter secrecy. But without these changes, I see no point in continuing.

Edited August 6, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[NoRailgunner 0]

It looks more like a menu for people who arent familiar with keyboards and shortcuts.

Highly doubt that you can continue with gameplay while the radial menu is active on screen and waiting for the "click". Such full stops during mission will annoy most players. Not speaking about this "disturbing (radial) command thingy in your face"...

Though it could be interesting for HighCommand mode.

Perhaps it would be better to have some small customizable tabs/plugins on the sides of the screen? Adding a feature there for macro's could be helpful too. :)

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Shortcuts? Macros doesn't exist afaik. But, yeah true, you do need to stop. But if you look at some of the examples I posted earlier, it becomes apparent that you have been able to get your order done within a second, tops. I usually take longer to get my num sequence right, especially if I miss the first key (ie. 7 - modes instead of 8 - formations). I'm forced to look down on my keyboard to be able to hit those keys, while reading the list and figuring out the next number. When you haven't memorized these (and I don't know many by heart, trust me), the number system makes me less combat effective than a good radial.

Yes it's "disturbing", and it totally kills the immersion. But so is loosing a guy while you're struggling with the interface trying to get him to do what you want.

Tabs on side doesn't help much actually, unless they are very few and consistent. The new support (module) icons on the right is probably okay for what it is - limited numbers. But it obviously wouldn't work as a complex command system.

Not sure how it would work in High Command. The current updated system seems to do a very good job actually, and in some ways within how you would expect a normal RTS game to work. At least it would be impossible to experiment with the system within High Command as its dialog based (for now), which means you can't have it on the map (afaik, could be wrong here).

Customizability is key. You wouldn't like how I setup my radials, and vice versa. How I setup my infantry controls would differ from how a tanker setup his controls. What if I need to change in the middle of the game? Should be addressed and kept in mind. Macros and custom scripts is also a key feature. Assault right (like in OFP DR) doesn't exist, but should be fully possible to script. Same with "scan direction relative to vehicle", again not possible within the number system, and GOD how often didn't I want this. And we couldn't if we wanted to; the number system is fully occupied already, and actions is a really bad choice - I would never put 8 new actions "just" for that, but it would fit the "scan radial" just nicely on the unused ring.

[NeMeSiS 11]

While i do think it would be easier for new(Coming from mainstream games) people, and especially good at not scaring them away, i think they would be heavily impaired compared to new people who immediately started to use the old system after a month or so. Personally i wouldnt even consider using it. Every system like this so far has annoyed the crap out of me purely because i have to use the mouse instead of the keyboard.

Also, i have to admit i didnt read all the walls of text, but how would the context sensitive options we have work with a giant radial in front of your face?

Im talking about the 'Move to where i click/mount the vehicle i click on' and similar commands.

[Pain0815 10]

2) Yes in the start it does take a little time getting used to. But it quickly develops into a motoric skill that the muscles memorizes.

Same as the motoric skill for hitting 2 numberkeys instead,what would take much much less time. LOL

By the way for selecting the units you want command you have to hit the soldier keys....

Whats better then?

a) Quick hit 2 more keys while your hand goes back.

b) Open a large menue and search commands.

I bet youre not able to use the current system. So go learn the numbercodes.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Same as the motoric skill for hitting 2 numberkeys instead,what would take much much less time. LOL

Mock me all you want. But you clearly don't understand what I'm saying. Big difference between rote learning some abstract number sequence with no mnemonics, and a mnemonicized (is that a word?) qualifier (f for formations) and a direction (or grouped with natural colors or positions).

Which is easier, west direction being west on a radial layout or 7 (and I have to guess now) in the numeric system? How about teams? What's the number for the yellow team? With the radial, the color just kinda pops right at you.

By the way for selecting the units you want command you have to hit the soldier keys....

Maybe you should take another look at the team radial. That's how I deal with larger squads. Quick assigns without hitting a single soldier key. For normal teams (fireteam size or less), I can access the soldier keys without moving my hand across the keyboard, and completely without looking at the keys I'm trying to reach (from F5 and up, it becomes a problem).

Whats better then?

a) Quick hit 2 more keys while your hand goes back.

b) Open a large menue and search commands.

That's up to you to decide for yourself. But don't make my decision. I know I'm not happy with the number system, and from reading the new guys post, they don't seem particularly happy with it either.

Remember, we're assuming that none of the systems are known (to a new player). You don't "quick hit 2 more keys" when you're not familiar with it. Do you seriously fail to see that?

You hit the wrong one, more than a few times, going back and forth through menus until you actually find the right one. Then you have to read through the list until you find the item (say, formation line) you want. Formation is 8 in the number system - tell me how that is intuitive? Then, line is what? I still don't know, I have to read the list. F qualifier for formation, now that's actually starting to make sense (that would be my setup anyways). Line is "offensive", so red and at the top (offensive) part of the radial - much more intuitive and quick, imho.

I bet youre not able to use the current system. So go learn the numbercodes.

Damn straight I'm not able to use it, not efficiently anyway. Learn the numbercodes? I know only a few by heart. And I've played since OFP so I've had my chance.

How many phone numbers do you know by heart? Probably not that many I guess. Why? Because everything is stored on the cell and easy to access. Before the cell, we all tended to remember more phone numbers. And still, the easy access "wins" over memorizing, even if we might not be able to dial instantly the way we did, not to mention the number of misdials we had :)

All the negatives are saying to me: "Naah, we can remember the phone numbers, we don't need no stinking lookup system". Or "why invest time in a lookup system with quick access when everyone can perfectly learn the phone numbers and dial them faster". You guys can still memorize the phone numbers, and shouldn't care less if the rest of us wanted a modernized storage and lookup system. But no, you actively want to deny us that possibility. Weird. Just weird...

Edited August 6, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[Pain0815 10]

How about teams? What's the number for the yellow team?

Shift + select just 1 soldier of the group

Damn straight I'm not able to use it, not efficiently anyway. Learn the numbercodes? I know only a few by heart. And I've played since OFP so I've had my chance.

Then practice a bit and then you will keep them, i mean you have enough time to play when i see what walls of usless text you can write.

But

A radial menue where you need to stop moving while using isnt any effective in combat situations...

p.s. With backshift you can go back through your order menues, step by step. And a other BIG BIG advantage is that you can take some time or make it even quicker as with such a radial menue.

Its a player choice here.

You can go select your unit for the order then you hit formations (8), now you can still run to cover, hit the dirt or anything like that before hitting the formation command you want now...

So you can prepare commands over time when you have a stressy situation with only parts of seconds time between necessary things to survive maybe....

NO CHANCE with a radial menue... Not even for newbies, because its just worse

Edited August 6, 2010 by Pain0815

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Shift + select just 1 soldier of the group

You failed to answer my question. And you say how to select the colored team, now how to assign them.

Then practice a bit and then you will keep them, i mean you have enough time to play when i see what walls of usless text you can write.

I think ten years should be enough. I'm into 3D, means hardware is often not available for gaming during a render = spare time. And, wow... Just, wow... Since my desire for an improved system is considered useless, well, enough said...

[Pain0815 10]

You failed to answer my question. And you say how to select the colored team, now how to assign them.

Ok that was selecting. To assign choose the soldiers then press 9-4 (mousewheel works too)

I think ten years should be enough. I'm into 3D, means hardware is often not available for gaming during a render = spare time. And, wow... Just, wow... Since my desire for an improved system is considered useless, well, enough said...

Yes your improved system is useless in my eyes, because it handicaps you compared to the current avaiable system.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Pain0815

[LeadCommando65 10]

@LeadCommando65:

1) If you assigned the radials to the number keys, you could have 9 radials with 16 slots instead of the 9 slots we have today (excluding the "more" option which isn't available everywhere). 144 commands versus 81 = more :) The number system is already filled to the max, and we need some new useful commands that can't simply be plugged into the number system as it doesn't have the space for it.

There you go, that's really more possibilities ;) But comparing to other radial command menus I've seen, 16 per radial is very much.

2) Yes in the start it does take a little time getting used to. But it quickly develops into a motoric skill that the muscles memorizes. Mouse gestures are popular for a reason. This "sits deeper" than memorizing an arbitrary number sequence. It would be grouped with color codings and positions, and could have graphics as well to illustrate the command.

Hm, that's the difference. Personally, I don't really memorize moves that I've done with the mouse. Had this problem since Black&White (if you know this game). I'm more with numbers.

Again, users of the current number system wouldn't be affected at all. This would be "on the side" and highly experimental. "The perfect user interface" doesn't exist, and probably never will, so nobody should expect anything like this to work smoothly from the first implementation attempts. I don't think we will ever see it from BIS, but they could give us the low level commands so we can try out different approaches for ourselves.

Yeah, I won't stand in the way if you wish to leave the old system implemented, because I prefer the actual system (where you could also change some of the commands to update it). I didn't like any of the radial systems implemented in todays games I've played (BF2, OFP:DR, R6:RavenShield, etc).

[mcarma 19]

This game definitely needs a better menu system.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

There you go, that's really more possibilities ;) But comparing to other radial command menus I've seen, 16 per radial is very much.

I've seen 4, 8, or 10 typically. 4 and 8 is obviously not enough as you'd have to split up into more radials than the amount of menus we currently have. 10 leaves little room to expand. Also, rarely would you use all 16 at any given time (being context sensitive). See the team radial for how few slots are used in some cases. 16 slots is the maximum sensible amount you could have, in the form of two 8 slot "rings".

Hm, that's the difference. Personally, I don't really memorize moves that I've done with the mouse. Had this problem since Black&White (if you know this game). I'm more with numbers.

Noted. I guess we are all different. But even if the motoric memory doesn't kick in (same as my number memory fails me), the slots would remain consistent and be easy to identify through color coding and "natural position" in the radial. I.e. the context sensitive Gear and Interact radial; anything (action) dealing with light or flame objects would always end up at the same position in the radial. Pointing at a car; lights on/off. Pointing at a campfire; fire on/off. But the same slot would be used for the two as they cannot interfere. At the same time there would be no "Get in" related actions shown if you point at the campfire, cleaning up the radial, making it faster to "search in". But even the quick command system should be updated (that interact menu which is typically shaded) so it works in that fashion. If you're running Firefox or Opera, I suggest you try mouse gestures. After a week you won't ever move the mouse to click a nav button again.

Yeah, I won't stand in the way if you wish to leave the old system implemented, because I prefer the actual system (where you could also change some of the commands to update it). I didn't like any of the radial systems implemented in todays games I've played (BF2, OFP:DR, R6:RavenShield, etc).

In some cases, I do too. In other cases I would definitely go with the radial. A radial the way I'm proposing it have some flaws anyway (which nobody has been able to pinpoint), so the number system would have to stay to make up for these cases, although personally I have never had a need to use the number system in that particular way. Yes, user flexibility is key or it would be worthless.

And I agree, I haven't seen a good radial implementation either, in a game. As McArma says, the game could use a better menu system. So why not start with something concrete rather than countless "make it better" suggestions that are basically worthless without an idea on how to make it better.

There have only been two "methods" presented in this thread; my multiple 16 slot radial, and the popup/nested based radial (similar to OFP DRs radial, but with 10 popup/nested slots from one global access point).

Thinking about it, the "not being able to move" could be circumvented as well, but would need some new systems:

* A mouse trapper; similar to how a mouse gesture system records its actions.

* A new gui "type", call it radial. It's not a display, and it's not a dialog. Keys continue to respond, and if you can have a unique button on the mouse, both mouse buttons could be operative as well (but personally I'd prefer to use the right mouse button). What won't work in the game while shown is mouse movement, and whatever mouse button you setup as a qualifier. While mouse button is held, it keeps sending data to the mouse trapper to figure out your "mouse gesture" and highlight slot accordingly. If you release over a highlighted item, then that item gets executed. If you go too far or back to center, the system closes automatically.

[76 0]

In a radial menu, you just press a button and move your mouse. When you've gotten the command you want to use you press mouse1.

You're wrong and it won't work.... you can't have used more than 10% of the commands because if you think they'll all fit on a radial menu then you just dont know what you're talking about.

[tyler4171 10]

Easy solution, play the damned tutorial....