civillian children

[celery 8]

@Celery

I explicitly expressed - in quite every sentence I wrote - that this is my personal opinion.

Why did you overread that? Why do you say I try to speak for a million other people?

I don't and I didn't. Where is your proposed rationality here?

I was referring to your public reaction hypothesis.

On your advice not to listen too much what other people think:

I don't. I just fear that BIS will easily get in trouble with rumours spreading that concentration camps / children are "virtual reality" ingame.

You may - on a rational basis - say: There is no danger that the game could get forbidden.

But you don't. You don't quote German laws and german politics which are in this regard quite "european".

Today Germany's censorship laws are a radical exception and subject to ridicule by the whole world including Germans themselves. It's virtually impossible for Arma 2 to be banned at this stage as the game has been approved and released 6 months ago.

"Fallout 3":

I am happy I don't know that game - as you sure know by now.

And as it happens many politicians don't know it too - I assume.

If they would it would be in danger to get forbidden.

Will you go on saying: There is no danger "Fallout 3" example shows it?

What kinda "proof" do you deliver with giving this example?

Doesn't politics react to public opinion?

And shouldn't it?

Does public opinion know "Fallout 3"?

You seem to argumentate: They should or can ...

That does not hit the point.

Maybe they do tomorrow? Or just now?

For the sake of BIS, I say, don't risk it.

I am gaming since 2001 BI games ... don't wanna los'em.

Fallout 3 is as mainstream as a PC game can get (not sure why you haven't heard of it) and if it doesn't get a shitstorm over having children in the game or a mod that allows killing them (and videos on YouTube showing this), it's unrealistic to worry that a niche game like Arma 2 would get the public attention that an AAA game doesn't. Thus it's a moot point in the discussion.

One thing that EVERYONE agrees on is the fact that only 1 person will abuse it and ruin it for everyone.

I disagree, it doesn't ruin anything for me if someone "abuses" an addon in a game and it doesn't ruin anything for BIS because of the point I made above.

Edit:

One has to take care with such moral equivalence because it can easily be transferred to other aspects of life. One can witness this in war time where many learn to dehumanize their opponents in order to cope with taking human life. It starts with the enemy combatants but then eventually extends to their civilian/noncombatant counterparts until the soldier ceases to see them as human at all. This can also be witnessed in sociopaths whose are capable of committing unthinkable atrocities because their victims have no value to them. Such is the danger when you immerse yourself in a virtual world for a large amount of time, because eventually those experiences and thought processes can bleed over into every day life.

Would you like to tell us what effects playing a realistic military game brings to everyday life?

Edited November 8, 2009 by Celery

[icewindo 29]

We definatly have made a seperate team of people here. Some quite understandibly would not touch the addon with a barge pole and others that think it would enhance the game and how you play it. One thing that EVERYONE agrees on is the fact that only 1 person will abuse it and ruin it for everyone.

Nope. Fallout 3 has children ingame and there are mods to kill them aswell. Several videos of player doing this have been posted on Youtube, one with 27k views and so far no lawsuit was started against Betesheda.

[andersson 285]

Im glad that this topic got better again, thank you Herbal Influence :)

I think we all have to remember that a discussion like this is maybe better used to understand others point of view instead of argumenting for a win.

There is no win here. If a "side" have solid good arguments and should in one form or another "win", it doesnt change the feelings for the other. So even if I could prove (somehow) that a children addon is ok it doesnt make it ok for all. That also goes the opposite way. If someone proves that its a very bad idea it doesnt make me recent the idea.

Imho I think this discussion is important so this topic can be discussed and read before an addon like this is made or not. This could help someone that was about to make one, but after reading this started to think and realised that he/she didnt want to anyway after reading this. That is good.

Another thing that this topic can give us is an insight in other peoples views and feelings. That is also good and interesting.

What Im sure of is that there is no right or wrong here. Noone can "win" this (maybe someone can loose? BIS, community?).

So I hope that when people reply to each other they are expressing what they think and their point of view, not only their feelings..

(Ok, preaching over from my side..)

[Archamedes 10]

Really, are you aware of the sheer amount of work that would be required to make such "addon"?

yes because i work with 3ds max and i model things and animate them so i do know the work that goes into it

[nicolasroger 11]

God I hate censorship.

you sum it all for me IceBreakr.

There is already enough stupid laws and censorship in this world, I don't need anyone to tell me what can or cannot be done in a video game.

If you don't like this eventual addon, just don't download it, but don't say it should be banned from here and stuff like that. Keep your emotional reaction for yourself and stop wanting to impose them on others.

I will say it again: I couldn't care less about this child addon, but seeing people saying this should not be created just make me want to create it.

[USSRsniper 0]

If you don't like this eventual addon, just don't download it, but don't say it should be banned from here and stuff like that. Keep your emotional reaction for yourself and stop wanting to impose them on others.

But what about ERSB rating? Should it be changed too if some very violent addon released? Just what happened with GTA San Andreas in US... because of some stupid mod.

[celery 8]

Fallout 3 didn't bring a shitstorm for having children, but what about GTA? It's mainstream just as fallout 3, and shitstorm begun over some virtual boobies which mod enabled...

If ArmA 2 is not mainstream it doesn't mean that there will be no lawsuits, there is always a lawyer who has nothing better to do who will begin one...

The only thing that GTA (any version) got from shocking media attention was more buyers and Rockstar has lost no lawsuit except for the one where they had to edit the "Kill all Haitians" text out of all future releases in which they lost nothing but gained yet more potential buyers from publicity.

Btw, what law would Arma 2 break? What laws have the GTA or Fallout series broken for that matter? There's no case without a proven infraction.

[nicolasroger 11]

no, ERSD rating should not be changed because the addon is not included in the game and the mods don't auto install when you join a server

Edited November 8, 2009 by nicolasroger

[Aelin 10]

They are welcome until some psycho doesn't give guns to kids in real life, and then they will find ArmA 2 on his PC with children addon... And thousands of missions about child soldiers.. And then everyone will ignore that persons issues, and will blame BIS and ArmA 2 :rolleyes: This type of addon can easily ruin BIS.

naaaaaaaaah...remember it would be user-made and,most important,the public opinion hates ALL shooter-games

I see already a good scenario:africa based map+armed kids(somalia,etiopia,nigeria,sudan,angola,sierra leone,namibia...)

[Archamedes 10]

Speaking of GTA About 2 years ago some 16 year old killed another kid with a pick axe or some melee weapon. He then blamed GTA for it (trying to win diminished responsibility at court.) Rockstar was put though the press as being the cause of murderous games that cause people to "suddenly realise that they can try this in real life." This incident took place in the UK and over here GTA carries a very clear 18 certificate on the case. Rockstar simply said...

"This game was meant for a mature audience, it carried an 18 certificate and nobody under that age is allowed to buy it. This doesn't stop parents from buying games for minors but this makes them at fault for doing so. As for blaming our game for his murderous rampage, we are sorry but at 16 you are more than old enough to tell the difference between game fantasy and the real world with the cnsequences that come with inflicting harm on others. He was not allowed to have this game because he was under 18."

From that rockstar made their point and where left alone. The court also did not buy hs petty excuse and said he was in clear mental health and knew exactly what he was doing. The game had no effect in his decision to kill someone and he was sent down for life. The news still continued to try and say should games like this be banned etc... But they did not win the arguement simply because the court decided that whether he got the idea from the game or not, it was down to him to realise he should not have done it.

[Uglyboy 10]

yes because i work with 3ds max and i model things and animate them so i do know the work that goes into it

And you also know that the skeleton is way different? that something animated in 3ds/maya doesn't work in ArmA without serious adjustament ( probably not even possible without further MLOD release but who knows )

[Archamedes 10]

And you also know that the skeleton is way different? that something animated in 3ds/maya doesn't work in ArmA without serious adjustament ( probably not even possible without further MLOD release but who knows )

Most of my work is usually made with the biped. I only really use an ik bone system when the object or figure is not humanoid shape and the bone system is a lot more awkward to set up

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

That's one long term investment dude... Wait a few years and the kid will grow up.

And one day while you are being mugged in Electrozagronostovic some dude comes out of nowhere and saves your ass.

... "Remember me? I was the kid you saved when you started playing this game 13 years ago!"

And then you'll say "MY GOD! I've been playing this game non stop for so long. What have I done with my life!!!???"

Games can be cruel like that.

I love it. Starts out being very good and then reality hits you in the face.

Back on topic: Like (I suspect) many people here, I would like to see children for the sake of realism eg: hearts and minds missions, being able to gauge the friendliness of villages by how they and their children react etc.

But (Like alot of people. Not nearly enough though) I also realize that while it would be great for realism it would be also bad for BI and the community. Countries would ban BI games just because of 1 person making a children execution mission or a snuff video. I don't get why people say that wouldn't happen. It would.

Look at laws around the world and you will see (hopefully) what I'm trying to say here.

It is unfortunate but the laws that govern the majority will always be influenced by the minority.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Darkhorse 1-6
Spelling Error

[celery 8]

Countries would ban BI games just because of 1 person making a children execution mission or a snuff video. I don't get why people say that wouldn't happen. It would.

Look at laws around the world and you will see (hopefully) what I'm trying to say here.

It is unfortunate but the laws that govern the majority will always be influenced by the minority.

Which games have been banned because of a mod and in which countries? Does the Fallout series, being more mainstream and having almost the exact same scenario that so many fear would happen (children in game, videos of killing), not establish a precedent of nothing at all happening? How is Arma 2's case so special that it would be banned when other games haven't?

[killakaze 10]

i used to work in a gameshop and when they cut out and ban contents of grand theft auto 3 the sales went through the roof, copies that were floating around before the ban were selling for over double the price on ebay, original unban australian copies of that game are still worth more than imports and edited versions becuase its rarer. I cant count the amount of people ive heard who went as far as importing it from other countries like new zeland becuase they couldnt get their hands on the original australian version i still see new zealand versions sitting in second hand bargain bins in games shops, banning something somewhere is a waste of time when almost everyone wants it and has access to the internet, it will just up the demand for it in most cases becuase peoples dont want chopped up versions of a game even though the only difference i was hearing about from customers in a game like gta3 was you couldnt get your money back by shooting the prostitutes after using there services, which most people would probably only do once or twice as a joke then move on becuase there is no reward in it, i never did that personally but id still like the original uncut over the cut version.

Manhunt made it past censors here only to be ban later becuase of extreme violence and it became more popular after its ban becuase of the publicity we had alot of people enquiring about it and repeat customers telling me how they finally got their copy off ebay or from another site online.

i read something the other day where they were saying here in australia they are considering a ban on modern warfare 2 becuase there is a mission where you play as a terrorist and you have to kill innocent people in it im sure alot of people who have preordered are going to get the shits if they pull that 1 off the shelf including myself as an adult id like the government to show me enough respect as to let me buy an adult rated game without their banning it from me especially when i see a clear contradiction between movies books and games, how many movies have detailed accounts of terrorist activities that have been funded by the government they can send you off to war to be killed, or bomb the shit out civilians including old people , women and children to then tell us were not allowed to play something in a video game.

as for child civilians in arma II walking around towns and stuff its not like they would be programming in that a kid needs to pull out a pistol on you and your forced to shoot him to survive or that you need to use a crow bar to bash it.

[[aps]gnat 28]

This continued subject of "but it wasn't a problem with released game XXXX" means shit I'm affaid.

History is full of mistakes, just because it once was, doesn't mean it should be again. Remember of course at one time games didn't even have ratings LOL.

Let me guess, some of you (like many many others) believe smoking has no effects on your health, because they once said it was harmless. Or, you keep telling yourself, I only do it a little bit, therefore I'll never be affected.

Would you like to tell us what effects playing a realistic military game brings to everyday life?

Great question, but you know as well as we do, no one can answer that conclusively ....... so it makes for a great hollow comeback ;)

This is the problem with 'subjective' morality. People can and do say, it's just pixels, it isn't real people. Others use this same argument regarding abortion, it isn't really a baby, it's just a fetus. Far too often we see on the internet, people using anonymity in order to pursue behavior that they would not display in their own real lives because of taboos and avoid public moral judgment. In a simulation such as this, these avatars serve the purpose of representing real people and so with this in mind, do people really view it as just a game?

One has to take care with such moral equivalence because it can easily be transferred to other aspects of life. One can witness this in war time where many learn to dehumanize their opponents in order to cope with taking human life. It starts with the enemy combatants but then eventually extends to their civilian/noncombatant counterparts until the soldier ceases to see them as human at all. This can also be witnessed in sociopaths whose are capable of committing unthinkable atrocities because their victims have no value to them. Such is the danger when you immerse yourself in a virtual world for a large amount of time, because eventually those experiences and thought processes can bleed over into every day life.

Nicely said anfiach

Seems some are missing the point, this is not about "could an addon be released", the debate is the big grey bit about "should an addon be released".

[Archamedes 10]

Another reason why I Think that the game wouldn't come under pressure from such released addon is because its a war simulator as said before. Games like GTA and manhunt are "criminal games" with gangs and pointless violence all fuelled by crime and murder which appeal to the younger generation that may see this as a way of life. Where as in a war scenario where our governments send our troops to fight will know that in War there are casualties both collateral and soldier.

you show a politician gta and he will freak out and want it banned, yet you show him arma with civillians (and possibly children civillians) he wouldn't react the same way because the actions in the game have a reason behind it. This is the big difference between the contraversy between GTA and arma that people don't see.

[rocket 9]

This seems very much like a request to me, rather than the discussion of a mod. Actually it seems more mindless drivel. Considering the effort required to get animations to work correctly for such models, the result would be disapointing and rather useless.

Gnats point, was that just because can make something - doesn't mean we should. Ignoring all the obvious ethical/legal/etc... issues above, I still think its a absolutely useless idea. Possibly the worst idea I've ever actually seen on the forums. Officially classified as "troll bait" by me... exiting :)

[pathetic_berserker 4]

Whether or not someone bothers to make poly children for AmrA has absolutely nothing to do with censorship , gov't control, what is seen in other games, or even legal issues.

Theres no way to stop a person from making it if they so desire.

But I do believe that they should consider carefully the consequences and repercusions of their actions. Ever heard the saying 'No man is an island' ?. That goes double for anyone who creates material for sand box style games like ArmA. Ther is no control of who gets hold of your work, or how it is used.

You can tell yourself that you wouldn't abuse it, you can tell yourself that you don't know anyone who would abuse it, but its still just a small fraction of those with ArmA installed. Is it worth helping even just one sicko to get his rocks off just once?

Sure you could argue that they could possibly get thier fix somewhere else, but why would you want to make it easier for them.

[Kristian 47]

better if dinosaurs mod will give us again dinos, like in OFP time

heck yes! :D

[Herbal Influence 10]

This is the problem with 'subjective' morality. People can and do say, it's just pixels, it isn't real people. Others use this same argument regarding abortion, it isn't really a baby, it's just a fetus. Far too often we see on the internet, people using anonymity in order to pursue behavior that they would not display in their own real lives because of taboos and avoid public moral judgment. In a simulation such as this, these avatars serve the purpose of representing real people and so with this in mind, do people really view it as just a game?

One has to take care with such moral equivalence because it can easily be transferred to other aspects of life. One can witness this in war time where many learn to dehumanize their opponents in order to cope with taking human life. It starts with the enemy combatants but then eventually extends to their civilian/noncombatant counterparts until the soldier ceases to see them as human at all. This can also be witnessed in sociopaths whose are capable of committing unthinkable atrocities because their victims have no value to them. Such is the danger when you immerse yourself in a virtual world for a large amount of time, because eventually those experiences and thought processes can bleed over into every day life.

@HI, interesting quote in your sig. I find it unfortunate that anyone would equate BIS with a murderer.

Very nicely said!

[dr_chris 10]

I've managed to play OFP/ArmA/ArmA2 for god knows how many years without feeling the urge to go out and do any of the following:

- Form a pile out of 400 Trabants and blow them up with satchel charges.

- Shoot one of my friends in the face because he has a flag that I would quite like.

- Walk through every town killing any Russian, Arab or Somalian in sight just in case they shoot/throw rocks at me.

- Rig a church up with satchel charges and then blow it up as I simultaneously fly a Hercules in to it, out of sheer boredom.

- Look at a hill and say to a mate "2, move to bush, 4 o'clock"

- Steal a chinook and land it on a moving jeep

I don't see a problem with having pixels on the screen in the shape of children. It'd mean I could see how many of them I could clear driving a Jackal over a ramp, instead of having to use sheep.

People who associate the AI in this game with real people should really get a grip. If you do, I suggest you don't play Lemmings just in case you decide to march your sister's hamster off of a cliff and into a lake.

[mattxr 9]

look at it this way! whats worse?

- Killing Children

- Sex In Game

(We all know which one is worse)

Look at games which had Sex added into them they got slated, and banned. Look at GTA which had it in, it was slated, and banned in some countrys which had to have it removed.

Now if you add Children into a WarSim which where they will be multilated is way beyond anything of the sex issue. So you can it would just create a HUGE shit storm for BIS!

[celery 8]

Now if you add Children into a WarSim which where they will be multilated is way beyond anything of the sex issue. So you can it would just create a HUGE shit storm for BIS!

What's your logic behind that? In Fallout 3 you can blow a kid's head away with eyeballs flying about and nobody's banning the game, much less a shit storm brewing anywhere. Australia almost banned it because an early version of the game had real life drugs in it but that problem was solved with fictional drugs in the official release and real drugs in a user-made mod. Not a word about children.

[icebreakr 3139]

Hehe, yesterday Germany authorities banned Sega's new AvP coming in 2010... hopefully Sega will add Newt to protest the decision... at least they killed Newt in Alien3 movie and no one jumped through the roof and pulled it out of the cinemas ;)

Edited November 10, 2009 by IceBreakr