civillian children

[andersson 285]

Well - I think this is an interesting discussion with some nice posts.

Agree!

Perhaps the solution lies in here:

How far would we go to have a most realistic milsim?

Just to give one example:

If, one day, PC-monitors are able to splatter you all over with blood or cause you feelings of being shot at ... would we want that for better immersion?

If you could choose to use it or no, yes. I dont mind anyone else being splattered by blood, as long as I can choose not to. Just as you can choose not to DL a children addon.

If we don't want that why do we want to watch children getting killed for better immersion?

I dont want them to be killed. Thats the whole immersion for me, not to see them killed. Same with women and animals for me.

Do we like only immersion so far as it is comfortable for us?

So we could end the discussion by saying: Yes, it's not about realism and immersion it's about comfortable entertainment?

It can be comfortable entertainment and realistic. And today we have it. A realistic game without kids. But I do see that the comfort goes out the window for some if they see children ingame.

In short. I agree, its all about comfortable entertainment.

edit: To be honest I personally see no much purpose of this discussion other than moral/philosophical brain-twisting. So you all know ;) That means I have my view but it is interesting to see how other people think.

Edited November 6, 2009 by andersson

[Archamedes 10]

I have a 3 year old son and I do have a more sensitive feeling about child abuse than before i had a son. When you become a father something clicks in your brain without you realising that you become more sensitive to children being killed in wars and abuse in general.

However I noticed a lot of post mainly saying "killing kids" but my initial reason for posting this thread was mainly for immersion and making the gamer more aware of how they assault a village, being more careful on how they aim. For example There is Child playing with a cherna soldier on guard directly behind him. Will your brain go into the dilema of "do i shoot and risk hitting the kid or do i flank and get a clearer shot?" This was the point i was trying to get over. I know that its mainly an issue of people not taking the idea responsibly and completely going stupid with it but i find in general people become more self aware and take more care when attacking when there are potential friendlies in the area. I hope you can see what im getting at. Its just like "into the storm" mission in red harvest where the female is being raped (alough you dont see it) and you as a soldier free her and the doctor and are faced with a decision do we call in the airstrike and kill the civvies or do we plant the satchel charge? It is the same thing but for kids.

Now I don't like the whole titanic women and kids thing, a life is a life no matter who you are how old, young or what sex. You can never value one life over another, its just not what i agree with. So in turn it should be no different in a game where nobody really gets hurt because its not real.

As for people worrying about backlash towards the community and bis for any such addon that was released. I would imagine that a strict and clear disclaimer would need to go with it saying the makers and bis will not hold any responsibility for any misuse of the addon. Any person who is found to abuse it will be labelled and banned from the forum etc... Or something along that nature

Edited November 6, 2009 by Archamedes

[HyperU2 11]

For me it would just be another thing to feel guilty about, but then again I feel bad about every street sign and fence I knock down as it is.

[dm 9]

As for people worrying about backlash towards the community and bis for any such addon that was released. I would imagine that a strict and clear disclaimer would need to go with it saying the makers and bis will not hold any responsibility for any misuse of the addon. Any person who is found to abuse it will be labelled and banned from the forum etc... Or something along that nature

Problem is, youtube, bill o'reilly and that sort of ilk dont give a rats ass about disclaimers etc etc. They'll just see it as "game allows you to rape and murder children" and thus the hoards of uneducated morons descend on it and the PR goes tits up.

[vilas 473]

the fact that 98% of people do not do something, when they have dangerous tool, doesn't change fact that 1% cyco can do something bad

and sometimes state/organisation/whatever blocks some tools to not get in hands of this 1%

in many countries strict gun control and no shootings in schools,

as kids in games

1000 people will not see problem in it, while few pedophiles will find pleasure and maybe one after drug will hurt

it is like with banned movies

you may not know, but i know from friends from police about crimes committed by young stupid teenagers following movie scenes

when i grown in socialistic country we had other movies, other fairy tales in TV, those fairy tales were about cooperation, helping each other, later appeared fairy tales when someone blows other by TNT, kicks etc.

and in result child in my block of flats killed his bird by big book, parents were surprised cause stupid child thought that birdie will funny jump when he will use encyklopedia

book

other children flamed cat with gasoline on my neighborhood and filmed by mobile to put on YT

because of 1% of idiots, other 99% of people have limitation

because of drunkard who killed people , you are held by policeman to check if you have alcohol

because of idiot who shoot someone you cannot own gun in my country and etc.

so it is all because sensitive issues that might be used by someone

thats why we have this age rating on games, we know something, but we should take under account, that someone may not know - what we know

two streets from me, one boy had air pneumatic rifle (don't know english name for something which shoot by air pressure) and that shit was firing to pedestrians till neighbors broke into his flat

boy was 8-9 years old and laughing , imagine what could be if he had real danger rifle in home

so there are some regulations which are touching something, because 1-2% will make problem using something

[cayden1988 10]

The one thing that doesn't seem to make arma 2 complete is children. I can understand that it can be a gray area to add children into games like this but I think it cold be a good idea if used properly. I dont want to nuke them or watch them get blown apart (literally with slx) from an airstrike but adding them for ambient civillian life or even hostage situations could be good. Also it could be good for realism if there are missions where you have to laser designate a building but beware there is a school nearby etc... you get the idea

Also it could be good for realism if there are missions where you have to laser designate a building but beware there is a school nearby etc... you get the idea

Lol. Why on earth would you bomb a building right next to a school with children in it?

First things first, the school would be evacuated, and that building next to it, wouldn't require a laser designation of a ballistic missile, special ops team would raid it.

[celery 8]

Lol. Why on earth would you bomb a building right next to a school with children in it?

First things first, the school would be evacuated, and that building next to it, wouldn't require a laser designation of a ballistic missile, special ops team would raid it.

Just like IRL? :j:

[jeza 5415]

Lol. Why on earth would you bomb a building right next to a school with children in it?

First things first, the school would be evacuated, and that building next to it, wouldn't require a laser designation of a ballistic missile, special ops team would raid it.

Youd think but look at conflicts such as the palestinian war where IAAF & IDF did just this. But interms of children in arma2, you are bound to get someone sooner or later who does an airstrike or something on them then posts it all over youtube ect and just difiles the whole arma name, so thinks its best that children addon does not materialise.

[adumb 0]

the fact that 98% of people do not do something, when they have dangerous tool, doesn't change fact that 1% cyco can do something bad

and sometimes state/organisation/whatever blocks some tools to not get in hands of this 1%

in many countries strict gun control and no shootings in schools,

as kids in games

1000 people will not see problem in it, while few pedophiles will find pleasure and maybe one after drug will hurt

it is like with banned movies

you may not know, but i know from friends from police about crimes committed by young stupid teenagers following movie scenes

when i grown in socialistic country we had other movies, other fairy tales in TV, those fairy tales were about cooperation, helping each other, later appeared fairy tales when someone blows other by TNT, kicks etc.

and in result child in my block of flats killed his bird by big book, parents were surprised cause stupid child thought that birdie will funny jump when he will use encyklopedia

book

other children flamed cat with gasoline on my neighborhood and filmed by mobile to put on YT

because of 1% of idiots, other 99% of people have limitation

because of drunkard who killed people , you are held by policeman to check if you have alcohol

because of idiot who shoot someone you cannot own gun in my country and etc.

so it is all because sensitive issues that might be used by someone

thats why we have this age rating on games, we know something, but we should take under account, that someone may not know - what we know

two streets from me, one boy had air pneumatic rifle (don't know english name for something which shoot by air pressure) and that shit was firing to pedestrians till neighbors broke into his flat

boy was 8-9 years old and laughing , imagine what could be if he had real danger rifle in home

so there are some regulations which are touching something, because 1-2% will make problem using something

Have you ever been so far as to do look more like?

[Johannes 10]

Have you ever been so far as to do look more like?

Maybe i am just naive and uninformed, but what exactly do you mean by this?

Also i 100% share vilas opinion on this. Actually i always share his opinion because vilas is always right.

[vilas 473]

maybe he not understand metaphors ?

i understand such "no children target" in games because of some idiots, developer may have problems, cause one guy on YT can post movie "massive execution of small bastards" and BIS will have problems

all what i said was comparison to other existing limits in our life (we have many limits, because someone did something bad and "state organization" forbid some things)

thats why there is no "taboo" kids in scenery of this game

[Archamedes 10]

Lol. Why on earth would you bomb a building right next to a school with children in it?

Becase some enemies decide to occupy buildings next to schools, churches and hospitals to discourage air strikes its an old trick in the book rather than an old building in the middle of nowhere that pilots are itching to fire on.

The taliban to this day will always run into a mosque when usa planes are reported nearby because regulations of combat are to NEVER open fire on a church regardless of who is inside

[mattxr 9]

Yes its real and unfortaully this shit happens in real life, but in the end, who wants to simulate this, no one becuase its wrong and any normal human being should understand that.

[vilas 473]

but you know, normal human being is 99% of population

according to books ( http://www.amazon.com/Without-Conscience-Disturbing-World-Psychopaths/dp/1572304510 , http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/0767915828/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b ) of psychology, forensic literature , over 1% of people are...

those things are always making problems to rest

by the way, i read such books and i know that some people don't understand what is normal for rest

because of them we have a lot of law-bans , 99% of people will make mission like "escape children from school taken by cyco" and cyco will do mission like "shoot as many as you can" , for us "normal" those objects in game (children) will be "scenery" while they will be jack***off shooting them and publish on YT and BIS will have problems

after CM release i changed my attitude to BIS ;) and do not want to make any problem and defend on other forums

so such kids addon is sensitive addon , and for BIS is better avoid it and moders also want avoid because of one or two freaks who will publish it on YT

for the same reason we had no addon of Jews-camp-prisoners from WW2

to avoid "further problems" although it would be mission "release prisoners from death-camp" mission for US or Soviet army

but "better avoid problems" is here main reason

Edited November 6, 2009 by vilas

[mrcash2009 0]

We have enough children complaining about performance and the SP campaign .. no need to then have them "in" the game.

[ricoadf 0]

We have enough children complaining about performance and the SP campaign .. no need to then have them "in" the game.

Best reason I've read out of the whole forum, we have enough of the buggas in the forums annoying us, last thing we need is to have them in the game itself :p lol.

Seriously tho, while it would be realisitic and I would like to see it to discourage blind firing etc, reality is that some idiot would do some stupid Youtube video and that would cause a big public outcry, altho since Fallout3 hasnt had the issue it might not be so bad, I dunno it a very iffy topic.

[killakaze 10]

i have kids they shouldnt be allowed in a milsim cuase its a milsim shit after all dont you know milsims never have kids in them unless your willing to pay $1500 or join the army you moron

i have a father so men shouldnt be allowed in a milsim either cuase its a milsim not something the public should be playing

i also have pets and like beef so animals shouldnt be in a MILSIM you know milsims hey they military simulations so why do we need cows and chickens and birds so i think they shouldnt be allowed

i also love machinery i thought about building some and being an engineer so im offended when i see them being blow skyhigh even in a game so ban them too cuase it breaks my heart to see them in milsims

lets ban violence in videogames all together even though its for adults cuase adults cant be responsible and a few might toss off over something in the game so lets ban that or take out the guns maybee we can throw rainbows at each other and hit the flaw laughing uncontrollably

god might be offended at us trying to replicate his beautiful world so maybee to be on the safe side ban any representations on reality

the guy on the cover of the game looks abit too angry lets paint a clown face on him just incase a kid sees it.

[Deadfast 43]

altho since Fallout3 hasnt had the issue it might not be so bad

Probably because Bethesda didn't want to take any chances and made them invincible in the first place.

[vilas 473]

i have kids they shouldnt be allowed in a milsim cuase its a milsim shit after all dont you know milsims never have kids in them unless your willing to pay $1500 or join the army you moron

i have a father so men shouldnt be allowed in a milsim either cuase its a milsim not something the public should be playing

i also have pets and like beef so animals shouldnt be in a MILSIM you know milsims hey they military simulations so why do we need cows and chickens and birds so i think they shouldnt be allowed

i also love machinery i thought about building some and being an engineer so im offended when i see them being blow skyhigh even in a game so ban them too cuase it breaks my heart to see them in milsims

lets ban violence in videogames all together even though its for adults cuase adults cant be responsible and a few might toss off over something in the game so lets ban that or take out the guns maybee we can throw rainbows at each other and hit the flaw laughing uncontrollably

god might be offended at us trying to replicate his beautiful world so maybee to be on the safe side ban any representations on reality

the guy on the cover of the game looks abit too angry lets paint a clown face on him just incase a kid sees it.

although i am not catholic, but i will tell what moral authority John Paul II told : "meter of humanity is how you treat weak and poor"

you prove you are less human, but more specimen for Profesof Robert Hare (books listed site ago) if you not understand barriers, taboos, moral agreements on something

maybe living in autralian bush changed you , maybe you not educated enough and your "civilization" (basing on money and guns like wild west) took human feelings that we have in east or in europe

we look at such problems and taboos completely different, cause as stated site ago by someone - normal human being understand basic things

only 1-2% of non-sociable psychopaths do not understand basic moral things

cause they have other brains

http://www.hare.org/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Without-Conscience-Disturbing-World-Psychopaths/dp/1572304510

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Without-Conscience-Disturbing-World-Psychopaths/dp/1572304510

now you should ask yourself "do i understand basic moral questions or not ?"

"do i understand that shooting to children should no go trough my head or not" "do i understand that basically real war in urban area may cause someone cry of loosing child" and etc. questions

"normal" people know answers for those questions, so now look at yourself,

you call guys above "morons" ?

who are you ? "normal human" or psychopath living in australian bush , successor of ex-prisoners (australia was UK prison right ? and those banned people genotype remained there as it seems) with "gun culture" and only waiting "yeaaah , i have a rifle, gonna shoot some asses, yeah, gonna go to other country to shoot some" ? are you

or are you not ?

although kids in game as objects would be realistic, but for sure, they may cause problems to BIS and thats why we should avoid something , which can cause problem, normal people do not have special will to have "children objects in game" , cause normal people shoot shooter game to shoot "virtual bad guys", so what for children if you "shoot bad guys in game" ?

and you - you ask yourself question, normal human have doubts, asks himself "am i right", normal - not overconfident real moron :)

after your reaction we will see who are you :]

[[aps]gnat 28]

Yes, agree.

Experienced people the world over know that placing "children" or similar in violent games or a so called "milsim's" or similar, is just plain WRONG.

Wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong any time in the future.

It doesn't matter what you think is a "valid" or "good" reason, when you break it down into simple terms, no human is human if they think shooting a child or placing them in a violent situation in game or any other situation is OK.

Grow older, wiser, understand how the world works (or doesn't) and you will know the same.

End of story.

Edited November 7, 2009 by [APS]Gnat

[celery 8]

So... any of you child lovers think that Fallout games (or their makers) are evil? Even though the children in Fallout 3 are invincible, there's a mod that makes them die like anyone else. So what's up now? Panic in the streets? Super bad rep for Bethesda? In truth nobody cares about children in a post-apoclyptic game and nobody will care about children in a military game. Hell, there were already child hostages in Rainbow Six.

You guys are being offended because of the small chance that someone else might be offended. Even if you say yourself that it's wrong, you don't explain why it's wrong. That's because you can't think of reasons logical enough so let's keep talking about our feelings like a bunch of women.

[vilas 473]

you don't explain why it's wrong

read above about being human

why ? why i cannot kill my neighbor, rape his beauty wife, take his money...

why ?

why i cannot f*** woman in dark steet if she is beauty and i want to f*** ? i am stronger, i know judo, kickbox, i have weapon, i can force her easy...

noone will see, so why ?

and later we read "computer games takes away humanity when played by too young people" and we surprise

and here we have example "why" ?

why ?

BECAUSE

because in other games missions are scripted, here addon of children would not be immortal and in other games "child died - mission failed"

and shooting to child will cause it too (maybe armor = 1000000)

Edited November 7, 2009 by vilas

[andersson 285]

You can shoot a woman in arma2, does that make you not human?

[celery 8]

read above about being human

why ? why i cannot kill my neighbor, rape his beauty wife, take his money...

why ?

why i cannot f*** woman in dark steet if she is beauty and i want to f*** ? i am stronger, i know judo, kickbox, i have weapon, i can force her easy...

noone will see, so why ?

and later we read "computer games takes away humanity when played by too young people" and we surprise

and here we have example "why" ?

why ?

BECAUSE

That brings nothing to the discussion. "Being human" is not an explanation for anything, it's an easy way to avoid a question for which you don't know the proper answer. If you are seriously asking those things, perhaps you shouldn't play games because you can't tell fantasy apart from reality.

So, what's wrong with Fallouts and Rainbow Six?

[icewindo 29]

although kids in game as objects would be realistic, but for sure, they may cause problems to BIS and thats why we should avoid something , which can cause problem, normal people do not have special will to have "children objects in game" , cause normal people shoot shooter game to shoot "virtual bad guys", so what for children if you "shoot bad guys in game" ?

and you - you ask yourself question, normal human have doubts, asks himself "am i right", normal - not overconfident real moron :)

after your reaction we will see who are you :]

Problems to the developer?

I don't think so, there are several videos of people killing childs in Fallout 3 with mods and so far none had started a lawsuit against Betesheda yet.

And F1/F2 had this native in the game. Yes, there were censored versions of the games (they just deleted the children instead of making them invincible, which screwed some quests and game mechanics ), but still, I don't remember Interplay losing their head over this.

_________________

But before we talk about these problems, we should also see the technical side. Technically children will need a new skeleton/adjusted anims as with the smaller size normal animations would screw the movement, so I don't think without some dedicated to this we wouldn't need to talk about this.

Teenagers would be more likely to work, though.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Icewindo