civillian children

[[aps]gnat 28]

You can shoot a woman in arma2, does that make you not human?

No, but it certainly means you have lost some of your humanity.

Yes, I've done it in a game, but it doesn't make it right.

Lets take a poll shall we. This will determine your demographic relative to subject view.

I'd love to know ANYONE who can honestly answer (A) and will tell us in these forums !!;

The rest of you "theres nothing wrong" people I highly suspect are (B)

Oh, and those of you that are (B) will no doubt ignore this question ;)

Answer either (A), (B) or ©

(A) I am a Parent. I have kids. I am fine with any media (including games) that allows anyone to shoot or do violence against children.

(B) I'm not a parent, I don't have a clue about being a parent in society. I am fine with any media (including games) that allows anyone to shoot or do violence against children.

© I may or may not be a parent. I am against any media (including games) that allows anyone to shoot or do violence against children.

BTW, I am not religious, I don't use the word "evil". I simply say as a morally decent human and a responsible member of a group of humans, it is wrong.

[celery 8]

Gnat;1483138']No' date=' but it certainly means you have lost some of your humanity.

Yes, I've done it in a game, but it doesn't make it right.[/quote']

It's not right or wrong, it simply doesn't matter. You're not hurting anyone by shooting a woman or child (or a man) in a game and you're not helping anyone by not shooting them.

Would you care to tell us WHY those things are wrong instead of concentrating on the characteristics of those who don't share your viewpoint, since that's a common thing to do when out of logical arguments.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Celery

[killakaze 10]

gnat you do realise you can buy vbs2 and it has children in it?

its made by the same company that make arma II its been released for awhile so your past present and future thing isnt as clever as you thought it was going to sound.

vilas i didnt say i wanted to shoot children in the game if they were included so dont talk crap your post is just insulting lol its actually funny the only people that will agree with you will have to be younger dumber or more brainwashed than yourself imagine a europeaner being dumber than a supposed bush australian derived from convicts that is a psychopath that is not a normal human and whatever other retarded stuff your small brain could throw together to insult me.

I still think having some kids in the towns and stuff with the other civilians would add to the games dynamics and realism and make you think more about how you approach the missions but i guess it might be risky adding them to arma II cuase vilas owns it and he might be corrupted and using his modding skills somehow rape a kid ingame and clutch a cross and need to read the bible and goto confession about what sort of crazy shit it makes his fragile stupid mind do.

Gnat your questions above are obviously biased and are designed to satisfy yourself anyone with a brain can see through it you should think abit more about what you say if you have a brain.

Im starting to think we have 2 bible bashing teenagers with kids on our hands

Edited November 7, 2009 by Killakaze

[dm 9]

Gnat;1483138'](B) I'm not a parent' date=' I don't have a clue about being a parent in society.[/quote']

Your answers are "loaded". I'm not a parent, but I certainly DO have a clue about bringing up children. Thus none of your answers A through C apply to me... (and many many others I would expect)

[andersson 285]

Gnat;1483138']No' date=' but it certainly means you have lost some of your humanity.

Yes, I've done it in a game, but it doesn't make it right.[/quote']

I guess I wasnt clear enough, I ment a woman ingame arma2.

I dont think you lost any humanity Gnat just because you shot a woman ingame, nor do I think that will happen if you shoot a child (ingame).

Philosophical questions;

-Is it wrong to shoot a woman ingame?

-Is it wrong to shoot a civilian man ingame?

[[aps]gnat 28]

tell us WHY those things are wrong

lol ... totally avoided the ABC didnt you.

Why why why, now your sounding like my daughter. ..... well, try having a look at the word desensitized (yes, we know, its not applicable to anyone here, we all have rock solid minds of course)

http://www.apa.org/science/psa/sb-anderson.html

http://www.psychologymatters.org/videogames.html

http://www.apa.org/releases/videoviolence05.html

http://www.physorg.com/news8756.html

http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2008/04/violent_video_games_and_desens.php

etc etc

you do realise you can buy vbs2 and it has children in it?

Not valid. The VBS2 is targeted at Military organisations. Price and content. Everyone knows the military of many nations have their own "rules". Desensitizing indivuals to certain things is actually part and parcel. Pain, fatigue, borders, questioning authority etc etc. I'm not denigrating this, its needed most of the time to keep an individual alive just a little bit longer on the RL battlefield.

Im starting to think we have 2 bible bashing teenagers with kids on our hands

lol ... nice try son! I'm over 40 and haven't touched a bible since I got married I think LOL.

Your answers are "loaded". I'm not a parent, but I certainly DO have a clue about bringing up children.

Fail. Sorry, not enough conviction there DM to pull that off.

Maybe in some scenerio where your parents died when you were young and you had to raise your brothers and sisters for 10 years or something, you'd know it. But otherwise, useless you've been one, you can't grasp the real responsibilities and psychology involved in raising another developing human being.

[icebreakr 3107]

Its strange that today I start to read a book by Doug Beattie MC named Task Force Helmand that describes stories of UK soldiers in Afghan from 2008 (and book has been cleared by UK Army & other authorities!) and in Prologue(!) author describes on 7 pages(!) how a young girl named Shabia got killed by UK mortar fire. He met her for 10 minutes and called for medevac, but she died later in one of FOB's hospitals. Its been his first day of Duty in Tour 2008 and his moral got crushed. His superiors didn't even inform him of dead, yet he had to talk to her father, relatives...

I bought a book over Amazon and I could also be a kid buying with father's CC. What justifies a book to have children killed, movies like Rambo that children get slaughtered and yet I've seen bunch of teenagers watching it in cinema?

And games are just not supposed to have that? To be realistic, to see players have remorse and substantial effect on the outcome of the mission?

[Uglyboy 10]

To be realistic, to see players have remorse and substantial effect on the outcome of the mission?

I really doubt that, i can easily imagine a bored teenager posting a youtube video with alsatian and goats like already said but not that.

and another thing that came to mind, books, films and games, this things pass through a "revision/censure" call it however you want it, so you will never see a game where ( out of a box ) you have a "mission" in which you have to sectionate a alive kid ( with sounds, special FX, models textures and RTM for the kid sectioned or not ), at some point someone would stop that game to go on the market, but what stops anybody ( let say he have the skill to ) to make a mission like that, release it and then the bored teenager make a video on youtube naming it ArmA 2 gameplay? That's why i think kids and such should never be involved when we have such good modding capability.

My english is not so good to explain this in the way i want but i hope you get the idea

[killakaze 10]

what stopping these evil kids from making a snuff video with arma 2 calling it arma II snuff and uploading it to youtube or raping a woman in game and shooting her infront of her husband? how about rounding a village up into a church and raping the women on the alter? or getting the priest to have sex with an old woman or even men? or even the alsations raping women or priests or rabbits or cows or whatever people can think of THEY DONT and if they do its obvious they have a sick sense of humour or some real problems and the game creators cant be responsible. your fear of kids in this game is your problem in my opinion not shared by most people becuase we arnt playing this game to have some perverted or sick type of experience. Like most people who play this game i want the best most authentic war experience otherwise id play operation flashpoint dragon rising or battlefield heroes or halo or something. you guys are not making good points in my opinion your just like a mothersclub meeting coming up with bullshit.

dont sit at your computer shooting anything sell the game goto church repent for your participation in arma II and shut the fuck up

[Uglyboy 10]

Lol, you want the most authentic war experience? Sell the game, buy a bus ticket and go to enlist yourself in the army, then you will have a lag free MP friendly and utmost realistic version of this game, and you will be even paid for that :)

[Uglyboy 10]

LoL again, ( at least you added the :p now ) i was thinking to continue this way making fun of you but i'd rather go to bed dreaming about kangaroos that take plane tickets and come visit the colosseum ( and get stolen of their wallet) :D

On a serious note i liked very Much this intervention and everybody should read it ( again and again ) and remember about it:

Gnat;1483058']Yes' date=' agree.

[b']Experienced people the world over know that placing "children" or similar in violent games or a so called "milsim's" or similar, is just plain WRONG.

Wrong in the past, wrong now, and wrong any time in the future.

It doesn't matter what you think is a "valid" or "good" reason, when you break it down into simple terms, no human is human if they think shooting a child or placing them in a violent situation in game or any other situation is OK.

Grow older, wiser, understand how the world works (or doesn't) and you will know the same.

End of story.[/b]

[ricoadf 0]

I find it very hypercritical that all these people are saying "oh shooting kids is bad in games even tho its just a 3D model and not real" and yet have no issue of shooting men or women. Life is life, shooting ANYONE is wrong unless in self defense. Stop discriminating about one life being worth more than another. If you don't like the thought of civilians being killed in a war game from collateral damage then go and play something else.

The point here is that the children would be like any other civilian in the game, something u try to AVOID having shot, so get over these stupid ideas of lining kids and and executing them.

As for my opinion on the matter, I don't care either way, their just polygons and in the end I avoid shooting civilians (when their in the game) at all costs, weather man, women or (if their added) child.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

gnat you do realise you can buy vbs2 and it has children in it?

its made by the same company that make arma II its been released for awhile so your past present and future thing isnt as clever as you thought it was going to sound.

Hmmm, I will asume that you do realize vbs2 is actualy designed for training of the people that actualy have to go out in the real world, carrying real guns. So your comment clearly shows you lack the imagination to think of what a person might be on the recieving end of, should he shoot a non entity 'polygon' child while in training. There is a reason why people are torn a new one when they shoot a 'poly child' in training , but who would be there to do it to you while you practice 'small target shooting' in your basement??

All I see here are a vocal few being dismissive of good psycological science in order to satisfy ......something, I don't realy know what.

But hey no-one can stop anyone from making it, just that who would bother when so few would accept it.

[killakaze 10]

"All I see here are a vocal few being dismissive of good psycological science in order to satisfy ......something, I don't realy know what."

you dont really know what but you can speculate that its not a good thing hey?

why dont you read our reasons for wanting it instead of being a dope

i think more would accept it than not

i think so far on this thread more are for it

---------- Post added at 08:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------

btw i never even thought about children in this game till i started reading this thread then i felt compelled to comment and vbs2 is available to the public at a price you realise that??

[Archamedes 10]

Anyone think of "hearts and minds" missions? After all arma 2 does have that in red harvest by letting the priest keep his weapons. That small generous decision had a ripple effect for later missions when you are suddenly in the shitstorm and need friends. Helping a kids from say a bullying guard etc... would have a great kock on effect later.

[ffs 10]

As a big fan of the Fallout/GTA series, I don`t mind "killing" human-like 3D models.

[pathetic_berserker 4]

Precisely!

I do understand the advantages of having children available for story telling purposes within missions but I'm not 'dope' enough, as you put it, to simply ask for having them being generaly available in a game such as ArmA.

The consequences of any potential abuse are simply to great.

Maybee being a father has made me too soft in the eyes of some, but if the mission is so dependant on children then I'd rather see the mission maker flex his/her imagination with creative use of dialoge and cut scenes, than have a mission end with the geo lod of my character bouncing of a herd of robo anim midgets.

[icebreakr 3107]

God I hate censorship. Again I ask you, why would games be different to:

- books (as I stated you can buy a book of Amazon that on Prologue first 7 pages describes a death of a 7 year old in Afghanistan by UK Forces)

- movies - typical examples as: latest Rambo, Robocop 2 (mafia kid)

?

Its kinda funny, books that are the oldest "media" don't have ratings, but they describe these things very vividly to anyone who can read. And yes, movies and games have ratings. And usually they are not considered military simulators as A2 wants to be. These things happen in real world conflicts, usually innocent people die, why do shut you eyes?

I'm deeply disappointed and enraged when I see my team member kill a FRIENDLY civilian without hesitation - just because he and his group didn't tell if they saw any enemies recently (we had independent set to "friendy to nobody") - in a Coop squadnight!

Edited November 8, 2009 by IceBreakr

[celery 8]

Gnat;1483306']lol ... totally avoided the ABC didnt you.

Why why why' date=' now your sounding like my daughter. ..... well, try having a look at the word [i']desensitized[/i] (yes, we know, its not applicable to anyone here, we all have rock solid minds of course)

http://www.apa.org/science/psa/sb-anderson.html

http://www.psychologymatters.org/videogames.html

http://www.apa.org/releases/videoviolence05.html

http://www.physorg.com/news8756.html

http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2008/04/violent_video_games_and_desens.php

etc etc

I'm surprised you're not embarrassed to post such crap as your loaded categorisations. Why do you even want to talk about social status instead of the matter at hand unless you really just can't rationalize your primal reaction? You've only said that it's "wrong" but I hope you see that the discussion would go nowhere if others just said that it's "right".

As for desensitizing, I'm going to skip debating whether or not it shows in any way in everyday life or if it's even relevant to the discussion (as in "so what?"). But are you saying that the game isn't desensitizing without children? Fallouts wouldn't be any less brutal without children added to them, they're an extra detail that makes the world more believable.

Here's a good read for everyone. It's an essay about taboos and why they can't stand an external moral and logical viewpoint.

http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

In light of this discussion, the "Heresy" part regarding labels is very educational.

[Herbal Influence 10]

Some people asked for rational arguements for not having childrens ingame.

I fear it's not a question of rationality but of morals and feelings.

And the thread showed in the beginning quite what I love so much about the BI games community: maturity.

That got lost somehow.

I think that vilas' post is quite informative and mature in most aspects.

But he did something which is hard to avoid - I know that from myself.

He insulted Killakaze as being from the Australian bushes.

(And that as being a bad basis to arguement from ... ;-))

This might have happened for he felt like defending weaker parts of society (children) for being abused ingame "virtually". Shit, "virtual" has different meanings .... dunno the correct word. In German language it means: "by the way of virtualization". This is what I mean.

So - he had at a least a proper motivation to act.

But the outcome, the insult, is something I don't accept.

But I know - and this thread again shows it again - that it's quite an art to discuss things without getting angry and insulting coposters.

Just my 2 cents.

Back to topic:

I cannot go with those who say it's only a polygon.

For we use these polygons to help us imagining real life i.e. for a better immersion.

And sorry, BI games are good at creating immersion.

The best I know.

And I don't want children in it, as I already wrote in about a three posts here.

And I don't feel the need to dispute about it.

That's why my first post consisted of "No. Simply no."

It would definitively KILL my immersion.

The "raped woman" avatar already gets on my nerves and I am thankful no serious mission so far (mis)-used it.

I feel sorry for BIS if there will be a mod with children/concentration camps etc. for we all have to live with the public effects (BI games could get forbidden in Germany quite fast) and the effects on cogamers (doesn't strengthen morals) of this.

I feel sorry for myself (and some friends) too for I would have to leave some missions ingame when such things would turn up and I wasn't warned before.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Herbal Influence

[celery 8]

Some people asked for rational arguements for not having childrens ingame.

I fear it's not a question of rationality but of morals and feelings.

You may want to ask yourself, why do you feel that way. Feelings and morals also stem logically from subjective experience and people and cultures that have influence on you. And as we can see from past and present, not everyone's feelings and morals can be right because no matter what you do or say, there's always someone who thinks it's wrong.

From my point of view if something's not hurtful to others and it's not universally regarded as a bad thing, chances are it's just subject to misinformed and/or narrow-minded condemnation. The essay I linked can be very mind-expanding in that respect.

I feel sorry for BIS if there will be a mod with children/concentration camps etc. for we all have to live with the public effects (BI games could get forbidden in Germany quite fast) and the effects on cogamers (doesn't strengthen morals) of this.

Like happened with Fallout 3? Come on, why would Arma 2 be some kind of exception that would get bad rep and hysteria when mainstream games apparently can get away with it? You worry too much about what other people think. If it's just your opinion, fine, but don't try to speak for a million other people.

And when we think about it, even if the game gets "bad" reputation, how could it hurt us or the devs in any way? The only thing that can happen is that the game gets more publicity and thus BIS gets more customers and we get more multiplayer company.

[Herbal Influence 10]

@Celery

I explicitly expressed - in quite every sentence I wrote - that this is my personal opinion.

Why did you overread that? Why do you say I try to speak for a million other people?

I don't and I didn't. Where is your proposed rationality here?

On your advice not to listen too much what other people think:

I don't. I just fear that BIS will easily get in trouble with rumours spreading that concentration camps / children are "virtual reality" ingame.

You may - on a rational basis - say: There is no danger that the game could get forbidden.

But you don't. You don't quote German laws and german politics which are in this regard quite "european". You quote ...

"Fallout 3":

I am happy I don't know that game - as you sure know by now.

And as it happens many politicians don't know it too - I assume.

If they would it would be in danger to get forbidden.

Will you go on saying: There is no danger "Fallout 3" example shows it?

What kinda "proof" do you deliver with giving this example?

Doesn't politics react to public opinion?

And shouldn't it?

Does public opinion know "Fallout 3"?

You seem to argumentate: They should or can ...

That does not hit the point.

Maybe they do tomorrow? Or just now?

For the sake of BIS, I say, don't risk it.

I am gaming since 2001 BI games ... don't wanna los'em.

[Archamedes 10]

We definatly have made a seperate team of people here. Some quite understandibly would not touch the addon with a barge pole and others that think it would enhance the game and how you play it. One thing that EVERYONE agrees on is the fact that only 1 person will abuse it and ruin it for everyone. Now any modder can create children easily, Im sure there are a lot of mod videos on youtube that was made by a modder who did not share it with everyone else and kept it for himself. Now what is stopping someone from making a child mod simply for himself and slapping it on youtube? There is nothing at all. It could happen we dont want it to happen but its the way it is. Now all im saying is that if there was someone who made child units I can pretty much guarantee it may not be allowed on the public downloads which i think would be a bad idea, but he could let people come to him via pm and request the mod, so again its something that can't really be prevented but just hope its used properly.

[An Fiach 10]

This is the problem with 'subjective' morality. People can and do say, it's just pixels, it isn't real people. Others use this same argument regarding abortion, it isn't really a baby, it's just a fetus. Far too often we see on the internet, people using anonymity in order to pursue behavior that they would not display in their own real lives because of taboos and avoid public moral judgment. In a simulation such as this, these avatars serve the purpose of representing real people and so with this in mind, do people really view it as just a game?

One has to take care with such moral equivalence because it can easily be transferred to other aspects of life. One can witness this in war time where many learn to dehumanize their opponents in order to cope with taking human life. It starts with the enemy combatants but then eventually extends to their civilian/noncombatant counterparts until the soldier ceases to see them as human at all. This can also be witnessed in sociopaths whose are capable of committing unthinkable atrocities because their victims have no value to them. Such is the danger when you immerse yourself in a virtual world for a large amount of time, because eventually those experiences and thought processes can bleed over into every day life.

@HI, interesting quote in your sig. I find it unfortunate that anyone would equate BIS with a murderer.

[Uglyboy 10]

. Now any modder can create children easily,

Really, are you aware of the sheer amount of work that would be required to make such "addon"?