Dragon Rising has been released

[[frl]myke 14]

Yes, at the shooting range maybe.

Combat training, not shooting range.

As said, personally i've never had the feeling that AI is over-accurate. For me it was always plausible. But of course it's easier to blame the AI than searching the problem on the other side of the screen. ;)

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

Yes, at the shooting range maybe. ;)

The point is that no game can model a humans ability to stay alive and take cover. And ArmA2 cant do it at all. The AI runs at open terrain to attack you and will not stay inside a hous to ambush you and take cover quick so you maybe dont know who is shooting from where for a long time. Now you would finde cover too and now we have the enemy in good cover/ fighting positions and you too.

Because ArmA2 cant do such things and the player/the AI will not have massive fear and stress the AI should be less accurate to compensate these limitations.

Now, I've seen the AI do some what I thought were truly stupid things but sometimes you don't know really what's going on. Only your perspective of the situation. The AI are constantly getting new information on the whole battle and acting accordingly to the situation and orders. Just think about this for a second, if you were AI and your platoon leader is telling you to prioritize a target, a different target than what they were working (uh you) you may see them suddenly break off of you and go running across a field, or jump out of cover. Combat is nothing more than mass chaos and confusion with enemy around, people yelling in the radio, bullet's flying all over, people dying. You're going to see people doing stupid things in combat that if in a controlled situation, you would never do.

I do wish they would use buildings and cover a little more though.

[Madus_Maximus 0]

I've had AI hide behind cover and pop out to take a shot at me or friendly units plenty of times, or toss a smoke grenade (not all that often but I've seen them do it). They're not as proficient at taking cover as humans but they're pretty damn good for non scripted 100% dynamic TRUE AI. The AI ranges from absolutely retarded to incredibly intelligent and realistic.

You also have to consider the fact that in real life not everybody is that smart. You'll likely see real people act as stupidly as the AI in ArmA 1/2 from time to time. I think they did a brilliant job of improving it from "meh" to "oooh". AI was always an issue in OFP and ArmA 1 but now it's like the polar opposite most of the time.

[andersson 285]

Pretty simple solution:

In your name.ArmA2Profile set:

skillEnemy=0.5;

precisionEnemy=0.5;

This will give your long gunfights. You can set it lower or higher all after liking.

You can also adjust these settings from:

Game options->Difficulty->YOURDIFFICULTY->Edit->Enemy units

But this way skillEnemy & precisionEnemy goes hand in hand.

Pretty simple huh ;)

I use on my local comp and on the dedicated server

skillEnemy=0.8;

precisionEnemy=0.6;

We that plays there are happy with the level of AI. They shoot back and hit and miss on a "realistic" and playable level.

I dont understand why BIS made the values so high default. It would have been better to have them lower and let people crank them up instead. Right now it scares away new people that dont know about the settings, thats why people are complaining about the AI accuracy in arma2..

[wiggum2 31]

I will quote from another game forum where we had a similar discussion:

Originally posted by DaveDash:

Im back from holiday.

Over the holidays I read Staff Sergeant David Bellavia's "House to House". For those unfamiliar with the author, SSG Bellavia was awarded the Silver Star and Bronze Star (and nominated for the DSC and the MoH) for his actions in Fallujah.

In this book he writes accounts of his units actions in Fallujah an other areas in Iraq.

After reading this book, I am totally convinced that my earlier mantra about Stykers, Bradleys, etc being too weak, and firefights being far too deadly are true.

In the initial assault in Fallujah, Bradleys ran over numerous IEDS and not only survived, continued to manouver and fight. Some explosions were so powerful they put the Bradleys in mid air and they still managed to fight with minimal combat damage.

Bradleys and M1A2's took a stupid amount of RPG-7 hits, and while the outside gear got burnt and beaten up, they continued to fight effectively with no crew or squad casualties.

Weapon malfunctions were probably the biggest problem they faced.

Firefights were not fast, lethal, and over in seconds like in CM:SF. They were slow and deliberate. Many insurgents whacked up on drugs just wouldn't die. Platoon level fights lasted for hours due to the amount of cover involved.

Im CM:SF one RPG will eliminate half your squad who has cover in a building, these army guys not only survived numerous RPG's exploding on their covered positions, but IED explosions as well that levelled entire city blocks.

In one firefight they had NO COVER and were hiding behind rocks on top of a building, the firefight lasted for hours. In CMSF they would have been wiped out in seconds. The guys they were fighting wernt slouches either, many of them were highly trained veterins from Chechnya etc. They must have been suffering from the LOS bug.

The reverse is also true. Despite advanced optics, M4's resulted in minimal kills and were pretty ineffective against enemies in covered positions. Most of the infantry level damage was caused by M246 and M240's against exposed insurgent positions.

However it still took about 200 M246 rounds to kill an insurgent STANDING IN THE OPEN wearing U.S. Kevlar body armour at relatively short range.

The real damage was caused by AT4s, Javelines, Tows, 120mm tank main gun rounds, airstrikes, and Bradley HE, which I feel are all quite well modelled in the game at present.

Now to make cm:sf more in line with reality would really throw the balance out of whack, especially with timelimits and the strength of U.S. IFV's and Stykers. But in any case I still think some 'tweaking' needs to be done in 1.06.

Funnily enough however, the gaggle of taffic jams you get into moving your IFVs, Tanks, and APCs through an urban enviroment isn't entirely unrealistic. The marine assault was delayed by hours into Fallujah as their tracks got into huge taffic jams trying to enter the city.

In one firefight, the supporting Bradleys and Tank couldnt effectively engage the enemy because they were stuck in a traffic jam and couldnt manouver around each other while buttoned. The army squad was in danger of being surpressed and eliminated, and one guy named Fitts had to hang off a building, completely exposed to enemy fire, and talk the commanders over the radio how to get out of their traffic jam and support his squad.

If not anything, read the book, it's a real insight to modern MOUT warfare. Many tactics we use in the game they used in Fallujah, such as covering fires on any building that looked dangerous. They were also pretty lucky. Many times when they were caught in danger zones that would have resulted in them being cut to bits, there was no enemy to actually respond.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=74545

Edited January 12, 2010 by Wiggum

[jw custom 56]

I use on my local comp and on the dedicated server

skillEnemy=0.8;

precisionEnemy=0.6;

We that plays there are happy with the level of AI. They shoot back and hit and miss on a "realistic" and playable level.

It all depends on what type of mission i play, if it's a sneaky mission with few enemies i prefere 0.6 - 0.7 but if there's lot's of enemies i prefer 0.5 - 0.6. It also depends on if your playing with AI or human team mates, with human team mates it needs to be atleast 0.6... these are of course just my preferations :)

[Andi 10]

How is it that Duke had predication? The bullets in that thing had infinite speed. They don't need to lead targets.

Nope guys. Just remember the fat floating bastards that shot the rockets. Rockets didn't have infinite speed. You still can test it, if you got an Win98 computer :D

So now, if you got this fat floating enemy in front of you and just kept strafing in the same direction, he would shoot the rocket directly at your predicted position and blow you into bits. Try it out!

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

Nope guys. Just remember the fat floating bastards that shot the rockets. Rockets didn't have infinite speed. You still can test it, if you got an Win98 computer :D

So now, if you got this fat floating enemy in front of you and just kept strafing in the same direction, he would shoot the rocket directly at your predicted position and blow you into bits. Try it out!

I thought they were the pigs. Getting games mixed up.

[Pain0815 10]

I will quote from another game forum where we had a similar discussion:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=74545

You really want a realistic fight in fallujah? Go try project reality on the 10th-community server (beta server without rally points) Fallujah west Map.

Most realistic mid scale pvp firefights & real teamwork in a game you will find out there. There is no AI, but for coop nothing comes close to the arma 2 AI.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Pain0815

[wiggum2 31]

You really want a realistic fight in fallujah? Go try project reality on the 10th-community server (beta server without rally points) Fallujah west Map.

Most realistic mid scale pvp firefights & real teamwork in a game you will find out there. There is no AI, but for coop nothing comes close to the arma 2 AI.

No, i not want a realistic fight in Fallujah...iam happy alive. ;)

Project Reality is for BF2 or for ArmA2 ?

[joey_45 0]

It's for BF2

[max power 21]

Nope guys. Just remember the fat floating bastards that shot the rockets. Rockets didn't have infinite speed. You still can test it, if you got an Win98 computer :D

So now, if you got this fat floating enemy in front of you and just kept strafing in the same direction, he would shoot the rocket directly at your predicted position and blow you into bits. Try it out!

Naw, I believe you. It's been so long since I played that game. It must be getting on 15 years now. I was just looking at planet Duke and it really showed me how little I remember.

[Tonci87 163]

Original from Vilas

AI in A1/A2 problem was not accuracy, but "how the hell he knew i am here"

That really needs a fix in Arma. If I´m under fire and prone, how the hell can the Ai see from 400 Meters away that i´m doing a barel roll? Its Ok if they have PSo or something like this, but with Ironsights? No Way

[Jackson006 10]

Original from Vilas

That really needs a fix in Arma. If I´m under fire and prone, how the hell can the Ai see from 400 Meters away that i´m doing a barel roll? Its Ok if they have PSo or something like this, but with Ironsights? No Way

This is quite plausible if they have a spotter giving your position, they then direct small arms fire on that position.

2/4

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah IF they have a Spotter, but usually they don´t and its really annoying that the always know where you are proning

[Bulldogs 10]

I think it's to do with the grass. Effectively I think the grass is just cosmetic. you notice that if you use bushes, walls, buildings, etc, the AI won't know where you are and won't spot you as easily, but I'm not so sure with the grass. Previously it was their audio detection being too high, and they'd hear someone crawling from 500m away, but now it seems to be the grass movement and they can see too well through grass so if you sneak towards them they'll notice you too early.

[max power 21]

Since when did proning become a word?

[echo1 0]

Some time after the unfortunate death of the English language.

[Stryker_1 10]

AI's in computer games are just that, "Artificial Intelligence". I remember playing ARMA I with my brother and he kept complaining about the AI this and the AI that. His problem was that he couldn't handle the fact that he was made of minced meat half the time. I recall one occasion where he ran into a UAV and me and my buddy were hiding in the bush and warned him not to go. There was a BMP patrolling the area and you could tell that it was searching. Very plausible situation. Anyway, sure enough he was done the minute he got to the UAV. It was funny as hell to watch (because it happen to my complaining bro), but really, it was a believable situation. His first reaction was that the AI cheated. And our response was no, your s _ _t at this game. The point is, the AI on the ARMA series have their moments There is something about the challenge and unpredictability that makes the game engaging. I played DR for awhile, and not once have I experienced the same type of immersion, but more like the arcade FPS shoot em ups.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Stryker_1

[froggyluv 2136]

Hehe, good story and very true Stryker_1.

I think Luggy is correct about Arma's AI far superior in their ability to lead a target as opposed to whatever system DR is using. You can almost feel it instinctively when an AI has you targeted and your near a house or object, the angle and bead that he has on you from sounds, and richochets. If you try to rambo out of that hole, your dead meat!

In DR, the incoming shots don't feel like that natural progression of "someone" actually honing in on you, but a strange dispersion of bullets aimed your way that always seem to kick up some mud rather.

Next for Arma2, I'd love to see some inherent AI strategies for various types of infantry/fireteam squads.

[templargfx 10]

The primary issue with the AI in Dragon Rising, is actually nothing to do with the AI itself. you've seen it mentioned a few times, it is the Dispersion Shield, alot of people dont know, or mis understand what this does. It is the biggest flaw (gameplay wise) in my opinion for the game. When I released the Ultimate AI mod for DR back when it first came out, this was the primary "tangible" change you would notice while actually playing.

each weapon type has several settings :

 <drblock weapon="WEAPON_TYPE_SUBMACHINE_GUN" plyrFilterStart="80.f" plyrFilterEnd="0.f" plyrSustain="4" plyrFade="20" plyrProneFilter="60.f" aiFilterStart="25.f" aiFilterEnd="0.f" aiSustain="4" aiFade="10" />
 <drblock weapon="WEAPON_TYPE_ASSAULT_RIFLE" plyrFilterStart="80.f" plyrFilterEnd="0.f" plyrSustain="4" plyrFade="20" plyrProneFilter="60.f" aiFilterStart="25.f" aiFilterEnd="0.f" aiSustain="4" aiFade="10" />
 <drblock weapon="WEAPON_TYPE_MACHINE_GUN" plyrFilterStart="80.f" plyrFilterEnd="0.f" plyrSustain="4" plyrFade="20" plyrProneFilter="60.f" aiFilterStart="25.f" aiFilterEnd="0.f" aiSustain="4" aiFade="10" />
 <drblock weapon="WEAPON_TYPE_SNIPER_RIFLE" plyrFilterStart="80.f" plyrFilterEnd="0.f" plyrSustain="4" plyrFade="20" plyrProneFilter="50.f" aiFilterStart="25.f" aiFilterEnd="0.f" aiSustain="4" aiFade="10" />

this is the settings from the "Improved DS" addon for that mod.

the settings are as follows :

plyrFilterStart - this is the starting percentage for the DS filter

plyrFilterEnd - this is the lowest percentage the DS filter can go down to

plyrSustain - this is the amount of time that the filter will stay at the start amount before lowering to end amount

plyrFade - this is the amount of time it takes for the filter to go from start to end, and back again

plyrProneFilter - this is the mininum filter percentage when the player is prone.

the filter is the percentage chance that a bullet that strikes the DR shield will be blocked by the shield, rather than hitting the player and wounding him.

these number are not absolute however, there are a sh*t tonne of modifiers that change the effectiveness (lower the percentage) of the shield. this is why 1 shot from a 50 cal doesnt miss 80% of the time for example.

By default, the players filter does not drop below 80% (base) this is a huge part of why the AI seem to not be able to hit the side of a barn. the changes I made above, meant that the first few shots can be blocked, but the filter will very quickly go all the way down to 0. Unforunately it seems CM has no intention of changing this

.-=edit=-.

got some of the settings mixed up. fixed

Edited January 13, 2010 by templargfx

[Jackson006 10]

Well I play ARMA 1.14 version and I find the AI quite smart. I have been playing on the USMCG server and if you have been spotted from the air or the ground, most of the time they will target you if you’re a threat.

What I have heard and seen about DR is that the AI aren’t that smart but with another 5 or 10 patches you never know.

2/4

[froggyluv 2136]

What I have heard and seen about DR is that the AI aren’t that smart but with another 5 or 10 patches you never know.

2/4

DR's are smart if they've spotted you and you're hiding in a house, they use pretty good tactics in coming in to frag your a$$. Takes at least 5-6 of them to take you down though.

They are terrible, at driving pretty much anywhere and if your objective is even remotely far away, you better order all your guys to get there on foot or they ain't gettin there.

[Madus_Maximus 0]

Original from Vilas

That really needs a fix in Arma. If I´m under fire and prone, how the hell can the Ai see from 400 Meters away that i´m doing a barel roll? Its Ok if they have PSo or something like this, but with Ironsights? No Way

Something to remember is that with the latest patch they now use supressive fire FAR FAR more often and FAR more effectively. They'll know your last known whereabouts and will suppress the area. You may just be unfortunate enough to get hit by one of the random rounds being fired in the general area.

[-RIP- Luhgnut 10]

The primary issue with the AI in Dragon Rising, is actually nothing to do with the AI itself. you've seen it mentioned a few times, it is the Dispersion Shield, alot of people dont know, or mis understand what this does. It is the biggest flaw (gameplay wise) in my opinion for the game. When I released the Ultimate AI mod for DR back when it first came out, this was the primary "tangible" change you would notice while actually playing.

each weapon type has several settings :

 <drblock weapon="WEAPON_TYPE_SUBMACHINE_GUN" plyrFilterStart="80.f" plyrFilterEnd="0.f" plyrSustain="4" plyrFade="20" plyrProneFilter="60.f" aiFilterStart="25.f" aiFilterEnd="0.f" aiSustain="4" aiFade="10" />
 <drblock weapon="WEAPON_TYPE_ASSAULT_RIFLE" plyrFilterStart="80.f" plyrFilterEnd="0.f" plyrSustain="4" plyrFade="20" plyrProneFilter="60.f" aiFilterStart="25.f" aiFilterEnd="0.f" aiSustain="4" aiFade="10" />
 <drblock weapon="WEAPON_TYPE_MACHINE_GUN" plyrFilterStart="80.f" plyrFilterEnd="0.f" plyrSustain="4" plyrFade="20" plyrProneFilter="60.f" aiFilterStart="25.f" aiFilterEnd="0.f" aiSustain="4" aiFade="10" />
 <drblock weapon="WEAPON_TYPE_SNIPER_RIFLE" plyrFilterStart="80.f" plyrFilterEnd="0.f" plyrSustain="4" plyrFade="20" plyrProneFilter="50.f" aiFilterStart="25.f" aiFilterEnd="0.f" aiSustain="4" aiFade="10" />

this is the settings from the "Improved DS" addon for that mod.

the settings are as follows :

plyrFilterStart - this is the starting percentage for the DS filter

plyrFilterEnd - this is the lowest percentage the DS filter can go down to

plyrSustain - this is the amount of time that the filter will stay at the start amount before lowering to end amount

plyrFade - this is the amount of time it takes for the filter to go from start to end, and back again

plyrProneFilter - this is the mininum filter percentage when the player is prone.

the filter is the percentage chance that a bullet that strikes the DR shield will be blocked by the shield, rather than hitting the player and wounding him.

these number are not absolute however, there are a sh*t tonne of modifiers that change the effectiveness (lower the percentage) of the shield. this is why 1 shot from a 50 cal doesnt miss 80% of the time for example.

By default, the players filter does not drop below 80% (base) this is a huge part of why the AI seem to not be able to hit the side of a barn. the changes I made above, meant that the first few shots can be blocked, but the filter will very quickly go all the way down to 0. Unforunately it seems CM has no intention of changing this

.-=edit=-.

got some of the settings mixed up. fixed

I agree. The shield I think is to compensate for the lack of precision using the game pad as a controller. You just simply can't get on target as fast as a mouse/keyboard where you can literally move just a pixel with the mouse.

that's just a guess though. I don't see any reason to have it otherwise. I've tried many times with a console pad and I always over compenstate back and forth trying to get on target. I think the shield is to give the player a few extra moments to get on. dunno. I think for the pc version (if this is the reason to have it) is to drop the shield only for the pc guys.

Edited January 13, 2010 by [RIP] Luhgnut